Nikola Jokic 21-22 Thread - 2022 NBA MVP Any thoughts?

[ty 4191]

Having that said, I think we should remember how high we reach when we compare him to someone like Shaq.

In fairness, Shaq might be in significant trouble today, with passing and outside shooting being much more prominent and important (crucial) today than it was in his prime. Nobody is going to be a perennial MVP candidate in today's game by (mostly) backing in and simply bowling through/over guys, while unable to shoot from the outside at all, and while being an average passer, at best.

--Jokic's assist % the last two years is 41%, which is the highest ever for a center during any two year run. Shaq's best year was 20%.

--Jokic's 3 point percentage is 36%, career. Shaq couldn't shoot, and couldn't make threes in an empty gym.

Jokic is a far, far more skilled and nuanced basketball player than Shaq ever was. The game today requires much more all around skill and finesse, even at center.

I hope this postseason will answer a lot of questions, although Denver has been so bad without Jokic that I don't expect a long run from him unfortunately.

Championships and Finals are mostly team dependent. And luck dependent. We can't fault Jokic for his team ownership/management and the strength of teammates around him. Shaq didn't do that much in the playoffs until he got to a winning/well established team around him, around the turn of the century.

All that said, I truly hope Jokic has a few deep playoff runs the next several years, so he can prove all his detractors/haters wrong. I'm sure he'll be awesome if given several chances. And, I hope he wins MVP again this year. Back to back MVP is very rare and extremely difficult to do.

[ty 4191]

Jokic tonight:

26/11/12 with 2 steals and 1 block on .750 TS (.688 FG%). 4th straight triple double.

Nuggets with 13 turnovers, mainly in key situations. Blew the game.

[70sFan]

In fairness, Shaq might be in significant trouble today, with passing and outside shooting being much more prominent and important (crucial) today than it was in his prime. Nobody is going to be a perennial MVP candidate in today's game by (mostly) backing in and simply bowling through/over guys, while unable to shoot from the outside at all, and while being an average passer, at best.

--Jokic's assist % the last two years is 41%, which is the highest ever for a center during any two year run. Shaq's best year was 20%.

--Jokic's 3 point percentage is 36%, career. Shaq couldn't shoot, and couldn't make threes in an empty gym.

I'm not going to judge players based on how they'd fare in hypothetical different eras. You and I have no idea how good Shaq would be in today's league. That said, we have seen how much athleticism and physical domination still matters in the league - Giannis won two MVPs thanks to that. I wouldn't call 2019 Giannis a more skilled player than peak Shaq.

By the way, do you use the same logic for Wilt, who couldn't shoot as well and didn't have sophisticated offensive style either? Do you think he wouldn't be MVP-level player?

Jokic is a far, far more skilled and nuanced basketball player than Shaq ever was. The game today requires much more all around skill and finesse, even at center.

Jokic is more skilled than any other center in NBA history, it doesn't automatically make him the best. Shaq was far, far more physically gifted than Jokic and he wouldn't need as much skills - that's how basketball works.

Again, was 2019 Giannis more skilled than Shaq? He put a lot of work on improving his skills in recent years, but he was already dominant before he couldn't shoot and only tried to drive through defenders all the time.

I also think that you miss some nuances in Shaq's game. He wouldn't be dominant in any era if all he did was back down defenders with little else.

Championships and Finals are mostly team dependent. And luck dependent. We can't fault Jokic for his team ownership/management and the strength of teammates around him. Shaq didn't do that much in the playoffs until he got to a winning/well established team around him, around the turn of the century.

I agree and I don't expect a title from Jokic this season. I think you didn't understand my post.

All that said, I truly hope Jokic has a few deep playoff runs the next several years, so he can prove all his detractors/haters wrong. I'm sure he'll be awesome if given several chances. And, I hope he wins MVP again this year. Back to back MVP is very rare and extremely difficult to do.

I hope you don't put me in this group ot "detractors and haters". I really like Jokic, more than Shaq for sure. I just try to be objective, that's all.

[AussieBuck]

Again, was 2019 Giannis more skilled than Shaq?

what the **** is this?

[Jaivl]

Again, was 2019 Giannis more skilled than Shaq?

what the **** is this?

But was he?

[AdagioPace]

Shaq was a fine passer for his position (among his peers) and a fine post-player. Of course most only remember his physical side.

[Dutchball97]

Shaq's touch and post moves are highly underrated aspects of his game. However, Giannis isn't that much worse as an inside scorer, while being a noticeably better shooter, passer and defender. It kind of depends if we're talking skill in their primary skill or skill as an overall player as Giannis would easily be the answer in the latter category but I'd take Shaq by the primary skill criteria.

[70sFan]

Again, was 2019 Giannis more skilled than Shaq?

what the **** is this?

What?

[70sFan]

Shaq's touch and post moves are highly underrated aspects of his game. However, Giannis isn't that much worse as an inside scorer, while being a noticeably better shooter, passer and defender. It kind of depends if we're talking skill in their primary skill or skill as an overall player as Giannis would easily be the answer in the latter category but I'd take Shaq by the primary skill criteria.

Again, I'm talking about 2019 Giannis who was a horrible shooter (much less versatile than he is now) and his passing wasn't on the level it is now either. I'd take comfortably Shaq's passing over 2019 Giannis, though probably not over 2021 or 2022 versions anymore.

People don't appreciate how big improvement Giannis made as an offensive player in last years. He was pretty much a one trick ponny in 2019 and now he's much smarter and more versatile player.

[Dutchball97]

Shaq's touch and post moves are highly underrated aspects of his game. However, Giannis isn't that much worse as an inside scorer, while being a noticeably better shooter, passer and defender. It kind of depends if we're talking skill in their primary skill or skill as an overall player as Giannis would easily be the answer in the latter category but I'd take Shaq by the primary skill criteria.

Again, I'm talking about 2019 Giannis who was a horrible shooter (much less versatile than he is now) and his passing wasn't on the level it is now either. I'd take comfortably Shaq's passing over 2019 Giannis, though probably not over 2021 or 2022 versions anymore.

People don't appreciate how big improvement Giannis made as an offensive player in last years. He was pretty much a one trick ponny in 2019 and now he's much smarter and more versatile player.

He definitely improved from 2019 to the current season but I wonder if it really is such a big difference that we can fit Shaq between these versions of Giannis.

Giannis has extended his range as he's now taking more mid range shots and 3 pointers, while now only taking 38.5% of his shots at the rim compared to 57.3% in the 18/19 season. Shaq shot much more from 3-10 feet from the basket than Giannis ever did but that is mainly due to Shaq barely even shooting long 2s, let alone 3s. I think it can be argued prime Shaq was a more versatile shooter than 2019 Giannis but probably not 2022 Giannis so that does seem to support your argument.

The passing I'm not as convinced on. 2000 Shaq had 3.8 APG with 2.8 TOV at 19.9 AST% and 9.9 TOV%. Then we've got 2019 Giannis who had 5.9 APG with 3.7 TOV at 30.3 AST% and 14.8 TOV%. 2022 Giannis is currently sitting at 6 APG with 3.5 TOV at 34.5 AST% and 13 TOV%. So it is clear Giannis has improved on that front. When accounting for their passing volumes and the roles they play on their team I do think peak Shaq and 2019 Giannis are more comparable than what some people might think on first look but even then I have 2019 Giannis as the better passer. I know this isn't too in depth of a comparison but I'd be interested to see in what way Shaq's passing comes out better than 2019 Giannis' passing.

[70sFan]

Shaq's touch and post moves are highly underrated aspects of his game. However, Giannis isn't that much worse as an inside scorer, while being a noticeably better shooter, passer and defender. It kind of depends if we're talking skill in their primary skill or skill as an overall player as Giannis would easily be the answer in the latter category but I'd take Shaq by the primary skill criteria.

Again, I'm talking about 2019 Giannis who was a horrible shooter (much less versatile than he is now) and his passing wasn't on the level it is now either. I'd take comfortably Shaq's passing over 2019 Giannis, though probably not over 2021 or 2022 versions anymore.

People don't appreciate how big improvement Giannis made as an offensive player in last years. He was pretty much a one trick ponny in 2019 and now he's much smarter and more versatile player.

He definitely improved from 2019 to the current season but I wonder if it really is such a big difference that we can fit Shaq between these versions of Giannis.

Giannis has extended his range as he's now taking more mid range shots and 3 pointers, while now only taking 38.5% of his shots at the rim compared to 57.3% in the 18/19 season. Shaq shot much more from 3-10 feet from the basket than Giannis ever did but that is mainly due to Shaq barely even shooting long 2s, let alone 3s. I think it can be argued prime Shaq was a more versatile shooter than 2019 Giannis but probably not 2022 Giannis so that does seem to support your argument.

The passing I'm not as convinced on. 2000 Shaq had 3.8 APG with 2.8 TOV at 19.9 AST% and 9.9 TOV%. Then we've got 2019 Giannis who had 5.9 APG with 3.7 TOV at 30.3 AST% and 14.8 TOV%. 2022 Giannis is currently sitting at 6 APG with 3.5 TOV at 34.5 AST% and 13 TOV%. So it is clear Giannis has improved on that front. When accounting for their passing volumes and the roles they play on their team I do think peak Shaq and 2019 Giannis are more comparable than what some people might think on first look but even then I have 2019 Giannis as the better passer. I know this isn't too in depth of a comparison but I'd be interested to see in what way Shaq's passing comes out better than 2019 Giannis' passing.

I'll just say quickly (to stay in topic, which is about Jokic) that assist numbers tells us more about the role, not about the ability to pass. Giannis has similar assist numbers to a lot of players that are/were much better passers than him (Bird being the main example).

[euroleague]

Again, I'm talking about 2019 Giannis who was a horrible shooter (much less versatile than he is now) and his passing wasn't on the level it is now either. I'd take comfortably Shaq's passing over 2019 Giannis, though probably not over 2021 or 2022 versions anymore.

People don't appreciate how big improvement Giannis made as an offensive player in last years. He was pretty much a one trick ponny in 2019 and now he's much smarter and more versatile player.

He definitely improved from 2019 to the current season but I wonder if it really is such a big difference that we can fit Shaq between these versions of Giannis.

Giannis has extended his range as he's now taking more mid range shots and 3 pointers, while now only taking 38.5% of his shots at the rim compared to 57.3% in the 18/19 season. Shaq shot much more from 3-10 feet from the basket than Giannis ever did but that is mainly due to Shaq barely even shooting long 2s, let alone 3s. I think it can be argued prime Shaq was a more versatile shooter than 2019 Giannis but probably not 2022 Giannis so that does seem to support your argument.

The passing I'm not as convinced on. 2000 Shaq had 3.8 APG with 2.8 TOV at 19.9 AST% and 9.9 TOV%. Then we've got 2019 Giannis who had 5.9 APG with 3.7 TOV at 30.3 AST% and 14.8 TOV%. 2022 Giannis is currently sitting at 6 APG with 3.5 TOV at 34.5 AST% and 13 TOV%. So it is clear Giannis has improved on that front. When accounting for their passing volumes and the roles they play on their team I do think peak Shaq and 2019 Giannis are more comparable than what some people might think on first look but even then I have 2019 Giannis as the better passer. I know this isn't too in depth of a comparison but I'd be interested to see in what way Shaq's passing comes out better than 2019 Giannis' passing.

I'll just say quickly (to stay in topic, which is about Jokic) that assist numbers tells us more about the role, not about the ability to pass. Giannis has similar assist numbers to a lot of players that are/were much better passers than him (Bird being the main example).

Shaq was far more unstoppable than Giannis near the rim. Giannis got stopped by "the wall" strategy, while that was the default that Shaq went against almost every game. The gap between these two players is so enormous, it seems like a silly comparison.

I wouldn't consider Jokic to be on the level of Shaq. He's been good in the regular season, but in the post-season he just hasn't had that level of impact, and it's Shaq's post-seasons where he took it to another level. Of particular relevance, when Jokic is defended by an elite defensive player (such as Dwight or Gobert) he struggles a bit. There weren't any players who could handle Shaq for a whole game on 1v1 coverage.

[Peregrine01]

Shaq was absolutely more unstoppable 1 on 1 but there's a lot more to offense than that. A big advantage that Jokic creates for his team (like Dirk did) is his ability to play as a stretch-5, which draws the big away from the rim and allows easier paint opportunities for teammates. That, combined with god-tier passing, yields a ton of dunks and lay-ups. The Nuggets have ranked first in FG% at the rim for two straight seasons - despite having some of the worst shooting in the league.

I mean, prior to this nightmare season, Jokic has taken the Nuggets to similar rankings on offense as the Shaq-era Lakers, despite having far less talent.

[70sFan]

Shaq was absolutely more unstoppable 1 on 1 but there's a lot more to offense than that. A big advantage that Jokic creates for his team (like Dirk did) is his ability to play as a stretch-5, which draws the big away from the rim and allows easier paint opportunities for teammates. That, combined with god-tier passing, yields a ton of dunks and lay-ups. The Nuggets have ranked first in FG% at the rim for two straight seasons - despite having some of the worst shooting in the league.

I agree that there are a lot more to offense than scoring one on one, but that's not what makes Shaq so special. Shaq wasn't nearly as unstoppable as an isolation scorer as some believe. His strengths were more related to his off-ball game, ability to create inside shots, offensive rebounding, drawing tons of fouls (including non-shooting ones) and his gravity that created so much space for his teammates. That's what makes Shaq so amazing, not his one on one game.

I mean, prior to this nightmare season, Jokic has taken the Nuggets to similar rankings on offense as the Shaq-era Lakers, despite having far less talent.

Now this is actually far from the truth:

2019 Nuggets: +2.6
2020 Nuggets: +2.5
2021 Nuggets: +4.8

1994 Magic: +4.5
1995 Magic: +6.8
1996 Magic: +6.3

1997 Lakers:+1.6
1998 Lakers: +6.9
1999 Lakers: +5.4
2000 Lakers: +3.2
2001 Lakers: +5.4
2002 Lakers: +4.9
2003 Lakers: +3.6

The gap in talent is massive, but so is the gap in results.

[Peregrine01]

Now this is actually far from the truth:

2019 Nuggets: +2.6
2020 Nuggets: +2.5
2021 Nuggets: +4.8

1994 Magic: +4.5
1995 Magic: +6.8
1996 Magic: +6.3

1997 Lakers:+1.6
1998 Lakers: +6.9
1999 Lakers: +5.4
2000 Lakers: +3.2
2001 Lakers: +5.4
2002 Lakers: +4.9
2003 Lakers: +3.6

The gap in talent is massive, but so is the gap in results.

I was looking more at ORTG rankings so "similar rankings" might have been a bit hyperbolic. But the gap in team results are not as big as you might think based on the rankings or the rORTGs. The gap in team talent is indisputable however.

00 Lakers: 4th
01 Lakers: 2nd
02 Lakers: 2nd
03 Lakers: 4th
04 Lakers: 6th

19 Nuggets: 6th
20 Nuggets: 5th
21 Nuggets: 7th

[Peregrine01]

I agree that there are a lot more to offense than scoring one on one, but that's not what makes Shaq so special. Shaq wasn't nearly as unstoppable as an isolation scorer as some believe. His strengths were more related to his off-ball game, ability to create inside shots, offensive rebounding, drawing tons of fouls (including non-shooting ones) and his gravity that created so much space for his teammates. That's what makes Shaq so amazing, not his one on one game.

I'm in full agreement on all the points you made but I don't think he separates himself from Jokic in all these other offensive categories, sans the foul-drawing. This is not to slight how great Shaq was because we might well be watching a player that ends up in offensive GOAT conversations.

To be fair, I don't think Jokic is near the player that Shaq is - but that's because he's a lot worse on defense.

[falcolombardi]

Now this is actually far from the truth:

2019 Nuggets: +2.6
2020 Nuggets: +2.5
2021 Nuggets: +4.8

1994 Magic: +4.5
1995 Magic: +6.8
1996 Magic: +6.3

1997 Lakers:+1.6
1998 Lakers: +6.9
1999 Lakers: +5.4
2000 Lakers: +3.2
2001 Lakers: +5.4
2002 Lakers: +4.9
2003 Lakers: +3.6

The gap in talent is massive, but so is the gap in results.

I was looking more at ORTG rankings so "similar rankings" might have been a bit hyperbolic. But the gap in team results are not as big as you might think based on the rankings or the rORTGs. The gap in team talent is indisputable however.

00 Lakers: 4th
01 Lakers: 2nd
02 Lakers: 2nd
03 Lakers: 4th
04 Lakers: 6th

19 Nuggets: 6th
20 Nuggets: 5th
21 Nuggets: 7th

i would avise against comparing rankings rather than margins above league average (or Standard devistions above average)

a example i always remember from one time i was arguing 2009 lebron vs 1988 jordan was that both were given credit for their 3rd rsnked defense and top 2 dpoy voting

but try, the cavs were a +5.5 Defense and the bulls "just" a +2.5 one, the Gap in defensive dominance is over twice as big but you would never guess it from their league ranks

sometimes a league #1 offense may be +5, other times a 5th rsnked offense could be +5.5 etc

i wouldnt look at raw rankings too much to make comparisions

[Peregrine01]

Now this is actually far from the truth:

2019 Nuggets: +2.6
2020 Nuggets: +2.5
2021 Nuggets: +4.8

1994 Magic: +4.5
1995 Magic: +6.8
1996 Magic: +6.3

1997 Lakers:+1.6
1998 Lakers: +6.9
1999 Lakers: +5.4
2000 Lakers: +3.2
2001 Lakers: +5.4
2002 Lakers: +4.9
2003 Lakers: +3.6

The gap in talent is massive, but so is the gap in results.

I was looking more at ORTG rankings so "similar rankings" might have been a bit hyperbolic. But the gap in team results are not as big as you might think based on the rankings or the rORTGs. The gap in team talent is indisputable however.

00 Lakers: 4th
01 Lakers: 2nd
02 Lakers: 2nd
03 Lakers: 4th
04 Lakers: 6th

19 Nuggets: 6th
20 Nuggets: 5th
21 Nuggets: 7th

i would avise against comparing rankings rather than margins above league average (or Standard devistions above average)

a example i always remember from one time i was arguing 2009 lebron vs 1988 jordan was that both were given credit for their 3rd rsnked defense and top 2 dpoy voting

but try, the cavs were a +5.5 Defense and the bulls "just" a +2.5 one, the Gap in defensive dominance is over twice as big but you would never guess it from their league ranks

sometimes a league #1 offense may be +5, other times a 5th rsnked offense could be +5.5 etc

i wouldnt look at raw rankings too much to make comparisions

That's fair but the rORTGs do not point to a huge difference either. The Shaq/Kobe era Lakers were a +3 to +5 offense. The Jokic era Nuggets are a +2 to +4 offense.

[70sFan]

I was looking more at ORTG rankings so "similar rankings" might have been a bit hyperbolic. But the gap in team results are not as big as you might think based on the rankings or the rORTGs. The gap in team talent is indisputable however.

00 Lakers: 4th
01 Lakers: 2nd
02 Lakers: 2nd
03 Lakers: 4th
04 Lakers: 6th

19 Nuggets: 6th
20 Nuggets: 5th
21 Nuggets: 7th

i would avise against comparing rankings rather than margins above league average (or Standard devistions above average)

a example i always remember from one time i was arguing 2009 lebron vs 1988 jordan was that both were given credit for their 3rd rsnked defense and top 2 dpoy voting

but try, the cavs were a +5.5 Defense and the bulls "just" a +2.5 one, the Gap in defensive dominance is over twice as big but you would never guess it from their league ranks

sometimes a league #1 offense may be +5, other times a 5th rsnked offense could be +5.5 etc

i wouldnt look at raw rankings too much to make comparisions

That's fair but the rORTGs do not point to a huge difference either. The Shaq/Kobe era Lakers were a +3 to +5 offense. The Jokic era Nuggets are a +2 to +4 offense.

As falcolombardi said, comparing rankings isn't accurate way to evaluate team's success. As for your response, it's not true that the difference isn't big:

2019-21 Nuggets average: +3.3
1998-03 Lakers average: +4.9

The gap is significant, over 1.5 points per100 is very singificant difference on offense alone. I also don't include this season to make it closer.

[70sFan]

I agree that there are a lot more to offense than scoring one on one, but that's not what makes Shaq so special. Shaq wasn't nearly as unstoppable as an isolation scorer as some believe. His strengths were more related to his off-ball game, ability to create inside shots, offensive rebounding, drawing tons of fouls (including non-shooting ones) and his gravity that created so much space for his teammates. That's what makes Shaq so amazing, not his one on one game.

I'm in full agreement on all the points you made but I don't think he separates himself from Jokic in all these other offensive categories, sans the foul-drawing. This is not to slight how great Shaq was because we might well be watching a player that ends up in offensive GOAT conversations.

To be fair, I don't think Jokic is near the player that Shaq is - but that's because he's a lot worse on defense.

He definitely separates himself from Jokic in terms of offensive rebounding and inside gravity though. Nobody defends Jokic in the post the way they defended Shaq - partially because of eras but also because Jokic can't establish deep position as consistently as Shaq.

On the other hand, I don't think the defensive gap is as big as some may believe. Shaq wasn't bad defender, but he was far from all-timer even at his absolute peak and he rarely reached his 2000 level throughout his career.