Lebron vs Jordan RAPM/Impact

[mcraft]

2007
2011
2014
2015
2017
2018

With the exact same team construction and health as those finals were played which of these losses is LeBron’s team going to win playing a different style of offense with more diversity instead of what they did run?

[Sark]

Lebron played in David Blatt's motion offense in 2015. He hated it, and it was his worst season since 2007.

[falcolombardi]

Lebron played in David Blatt's motion offense in 2015. He hated it, and it was his worst season since 2007.

2015 issues were much more about back issues at the time than anythingh else

He looked much better in 2016 still with blatt before ty lue came

[RCM88x]

Lebron played in David Blatt's motion offense in 2015. He hated it, and it was his worst season since 2007.

Ah yes, the vaunted David Blatt motion offense which has been so successful in the league outside of Cleveland.

[toodles23]

Lebron played in David Blatt's motion offense in 2015. He hated it, and it was his worst season since 2007.

2015 issues were much more about back issues at the time than anythingh else

They would have been a lot better off with that rather than winning the title in 2016 on the back of a historically great offense against a 73 win team then posting the greatest postseason offense in league history in 2017

Imagine the success they could have had if Lebron did a lot more running off curls for 19 foot jumpers?

[falcolombardi]

Lebron played in David Blatt's motion offense in 2015. He hated it, and it was his worst season since 2007.

2015 issues were much more about back issues at the time than anythingh else

They would have been a lot better off with that rather than winning the title in 2016 on the back of a historically great offense against a 73 win team then posting the greatest postseason offense in league history in 2017

Imagine the success they could have had if Lebron did a lot more running off curls for 19 foot jumpers?

On the other end, i like roll-man lebron and cutting- man lebron tho

But yeah the idea of havibg the probable GOAT on-ball perimeter player and not using that skill is weird lol

[homecourtloss]

Lebron played in David Blatt's motion offense in 2015. He hated it, and it was his worst season since 2007.

They scrapped the motion offense pretty early on then went on a tear after their trades for Smith, Shumpert, and Mozgov. They were 33-3 with James, Kyrie, Love all playing. In this period, they had the best offense in the NBA at an ORtg of 112.4, a full point per 100 possessions ahead of Golden State’s. It was 116.4 with LeBron on court. James was hampered with back issues (compare him physically to 2016-2018 form) which led to his subpar numbers.

Of course, after Blatt was gone, the Cavs posted two of the greatest post season offenses in history in 2016 and 2017 so there’s that.

Lebron played in David Blatt's motion offense in 2015. He hated it, and it was his worst season since 2007.

2015 issues were much more about back issues at the time than anythingh else

They would have been a lot better off with that rather than winning the title in 2016 on the back of a historically great offense against a 73 win team then posting the greatest postseason offense in league history in 2017

Imagine the success they could have had if Lebron did a lot more running off curls for 19 foot jumpers?

Exactly

[homecourtloss]

No, i explicitly mean rapm sources that dont use boxscore as prior

https://www.thespax.com/nba/quantifying-the-nbas-greatest-five-year-peaks-since-1997/

You cannot acumulate impact stats, that is like talking about accumilating low defensove rating, regular season wins or net rating

You cannot "statpad" impact metrics (plus-minus ones at least) cause plus-minus literally means how well your team performs with you

An excerpt from your article.

A traditional way to represent player impact without box score stats is to just use base plus-minus. For example, Steph Curry had a +4.0 plus-minus per 100 possessions in the 2021 season. This number means that with Curry on the court, the Warriors outscored their opponents by four points per every 100 possessions.

How do you know how much the Warriors outscored an opponent per every 100 possessions. What do you use?

Umm..you literally use the score. It’s literally what ORtg and DRtg are. Have you been arguing all this time on these boards without understanding what these two simple basic measures are?

[Sark]

None of these excuses change the fact that he did play in a non heliocentric motion offense, and didn't do well in it.

[falcolombardi]

None of these excuses change the fact that he did play in a non heliocentric motion offense, and didn't do well in it.

I would argue a down year/bad back lebron getting to a finals game 6 with kyrie and love injuries fits the definition of do well enough

Now if you want to criticize lebron for disliking it and wanting to go back to a more heliocentric approach? That is valid

But considering the succes of cavs offense by playing around lebron i dont think it was the wrong choice

[Sark]

None of these excuses change the fact that he did play in a non heliocentric motion offense, and didn't do well in it.

I would argue a down year/bad back lebron getting to a finals game 6 with kyrie and love injuries fits the definition of do well enough

Now if you want to criticize lebron for disliking it and wanting to go back to a more heliocentric approach? That is valid

But considering the succes of cavs offense by playing around lebron i dont think it was the wrong choice

I mean they were the preseason favorites to win it all, and had the best team in the East, which was absolute dog poop that year. The Hawks won 60 games with a 4.75 SRS, which I believe is the lowest ever for a 60 win team. Only 3 players from the East made All NBA. They were Lebron, Kyrie, and 34 year old Pau Gasol.

[letskissbro]

None of these excuses change the fact that he did play in a non heliocentric motion offense, and didn't do well in it.

He had a lower average time of possession in 2016 than he did in 2015.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

6.3 seconds in 2015, 5.3 in 2016. That's lower than Steph most years. The farthest thing from heliocentric. Among teams who made it to the finals the Cavs had the #3 best postseason offense ever behind only the 17 Cavs and the 01 Lakers. Didn't do well huh.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lMHVWmmq6lEy9O9XqLk0Ji-xawtX8gPRtHHwbvV9634/edit#gid=999526014

The agenda pushing from you guys is crazy. You never come with any evidence, you just throw out a bunch of anecdotes and pray that nobody can find hard data to directly debunk what you're claiming.

[toodles23]

None of these excuses change the fact that he did play in a non heliocentric motion offense, and didn't do well in it.

I have no idea why anybody should care. Lebron is the greatest (or maybe second greatest, depending on how you feel about Magic) on ball heliocentric engine in NBA history and it's lead to GOAT level results on offense. And the other guy in this comparison never played in a motion offense either so using it against Lebron is kind of bizarre.

Should Larry Bird get a lot of criticism for not succeeding in a PnR heavy offense as the lead ball handler, or Kareem for not having dribble moves and a stepback jumper on the perimeter and instead playing in an offense designed to get him a lot of deep post touches? Players and teams generally try to maximize their strengths. What's your point here?

[homecourtloss]

None of these excuses change the fact that he did play in a non heliocentric motion offense, and didn't do well in it.

He had a lower average time of possession in 2016 than he did in 2015.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

6.3 seconds in 2015, 5.3 in 2016. That's lower than Steph most years. The farthest thing from heliocentric. Among teams who made it to the finals the Cavs had the #3 best postseason offense ever behind only the 17 Cavs and the 01 Lakers. Didn't do well huh.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lMHVWmmq6lEy9O9XqLk0Ji-xawtX8gPRtHHwbvV9634/edit#gid=999526014

The agenda pushing from you guys is crazy. You never come with any evidence, you just throw out a bunch of anecdotes and pray that nobody can find hard data to directly debunk what you're claiming.

Even worse, even when data is presented [as was presented in this case with this poster], it’s hand-waved away as it was in this case, i.e., “these excuses…didn’t do well it.”

None of these excuses change the fact that he did play in a non heliocentric motion offense, and didn't do well in it.

I have no idea why anybody should care. Lebron is the greatest (or maybe second greatest, depending on how you feel about Magic) on ball heliocentric engine in NBA history and it's lead to GOAT level results on offense. And the other guy in this comparison never played in a motion offense either so using it against Lebron is kind of bizarre.

Should Larry Bird get a lot of criticism for not succeeding in a PnR heavy offense as the lead ball handler, or Kareem for not having dribble moves and a stepback jumper on the perimeter and instead playing in an offense designed to get him a lot of deep post touches? Players and teams generally try to maximize their strengths. What's your point here?

We all know what is the objective here. There are always the classic dog-whistle terms used even when they’re not understood AND there’s data that answers questions but it’s all hand-waved away as if it doesn’t exist which is exactly what happened here.

[falcolombardi]

None of these excuses change the fact that he did play in a non heliocentric motion offense, and didn't do well in it.

I have no idea why anybody should care. Lebron is the greatest (or maybe second greatest, depending on how you feel about Magic) on ball heliocentric engine in NBA history and it's lead to GOAT level results on offense. And the other guy in this comparison never played in a motion offense either so using it against Lebron is kind of bizarre.

Should Larry Bird get a lot of criticism for not succeeding in a PnR heavy offense as the lead ball handler, or Kareem for not having dribble moves and a stepback jumper on the perimeter and instead playing in an offense designed to get him a lot of deep post touches? Players and teams generally try to maximize their strengths. What's your point here?

Cause heliocentric offense puts a limit on a team, even when many if not most of the goat offenses may have been heliocentric it still is a limited ceiling approach somehow

I have a bit of a radical theory about it related to people wanting basketball to be a sport where some ideal team play approach is the right way to win

So when approaches perceived as "selfish" work people diminish them, back when it looked like the rockets were gonna beat the warriors in 2018 i remember peopke legitemely dreading what it would mean for the future of basketball if rockets won

[toodles23]

None of these excuses change the fact that he did play in a non heliocentric motion offense, and didn't do well in it.

I have no idea why anybody should care. Lebron is the greatest (or maybe second greatest, depending on how you feel about Magic) on ball heliocentric engine in NBA history and it's lead to GOAT level results on offense. And the other guy in this comparison never played in a motion offense either so using it against Lebron is kind of bizarre.

Should Larry Bird get a lot of criticism for not succeeding in a PnR heavy offense as the lead ball handler, or Kareem for not having dribble moves and a stepback jumper on the perimeter and instead playing in an offense designed to get him a lot of deep post touches? Players and teams generally try to maximize their strengths. What's your point here?

We all know what is the objective here. There are always the classic dog-whistle terms used even when they’re not understood AND there’s data that answers questions but it’s all hand-waved away as if it doesn’t exist which is exactly what happened here.

Yep. Just the usual "Lebron ball bad" appeal to people's feelings/aesthetic preferences even though it's objectively produced GOAT level results.

[falcolombardi]

None of these excuses change the fact that he did play in a non heliocentric motion offense, and didn't do well in it.

I have no idea why anybody should care. Lebron is the greatest (or maybe second greatest, depending on how you feel about Magic) on ball heliocentric engine in NBA history and it's lead to GOAT level results on offense. And the other guy in this comparison never played in a motion offense either so using it against Lebron is kind of bizarre.

Should Larry Bird get a lot of criticism for not succeeding in a PnR heavy offense as the lead ball handler, or Kareem for not having dribble moves and a stepback jumper on the perimeter and instead playing in an offense designed to get him a lot of deep post touches? Players and teams generally try to maximize their strengths. What's your point here?

We all know what is the objective here. There are always the classic dog-whistle terms used even when they’re not understood AND there’s data that answers questions but it’s all hand-waved away as if it doesn’t exist which is exactly what happened here.

Yep. Just the usual "Lebron ball bad" appeal to people's feelings/aesthetic preferences even though it's objectively produced GOAT level results.[/quote]
Did you just quote yourself? Or made a mistake with editing?

I mean it has happened to me before thst i quote myself instead of editing

Edit: seems like you made a editing mistake

[homecourtloss]

I have no idea why anybody should care. Lebron is the greatest (or maybe second greatest, depending on how you feel about Magic) on ball heliocentric engine in NBA history and it's lead to GOAT level results on offense. And the other guy in this comparison never played in a motion offense either so using it against Lebron is kind of bizarre.

Should Larry Bird get a lot of criticism for not succeeding in a PnR heavy offense as the lead ball handler, or Kareem for not having dribble moves and a stepback jumper on the perimeter and instead playing in an offense designed to get him a lot of deep post touches? Players and teams generally try to maximize their strengths. What's your point here?

We all know what is the objective here. There are always the classic dog-whistle terms used even when they’re not understood AND there’s data that answers questions but it’s all hand-waved away as if it doesn’t exist which is exactly what happened here.

Yep. Just the usual "Lebron ball bad" appeal to people's feelings/aesthetic preferences even though it's objectively produced GOAT level results.

What happens is that instead of looking at data to draw conclusions, the conclusion is already drawn, i.e., Lebron XYZ, and the narratives are contrived to support that end.

[Sark]

None of these excuses change the fact that he did play in a non heliocentric motion offense, and didn't do well in it.

He had a lower average time of possession in 2016 than he did in 2015.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

6.3 seconds in 2015, 5.3 in 2016. That's lower than Steph most years. The farthest thing from heliocentric. Among teams who made it to the finals the Cavs had the #3 best postseason offense ever behind only the 17 Cavs and the 01 Lakers. Didn't do well huh.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lMHVWmmq6lEy9O9XqLk0Ji-xawtX8gPRtHHwbvV9634/edit#gid=999526014

The agenda pushing from you guys is crazy. You never come with any evidence, you just throw out a bunch of anecdotes and pray that nobody can find hard data to directly debunk what you're claiming.

What is the relevance to this? I posted 2 indisputable facts countering the notion that Lebron never played in a motion offense.

He did in 2015. Fact.
His stats were the worst he's had since 2007. Fact.

There is no agenda in that.

[Jaivl]

None of these excuses change the fact that he did play in a non heliocentric motion offense, and didn't do well in it.

He had a lower average time of possession in 2016 than he did in 2015.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1

6.3 seconds in 2015, 5.3 in 2016. That's lower than Steph most years. The farthest thing from heliocentric. Among teams who made it to the finals the Cavs had the #3 best postseason offense ever behind only the 17 Cavs and the 01 Lakers. Didn't do well huh.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lMHVWmmq6lEy9O9XqLk0Ji-xawtX8gPRtHHwbvV9634/edit#gid=999526014

The agenda pushing from you guys is crazy. You never come with any evidence, you just throw out a bunch of anecdotes and pray that nobody can find hard data to directly debunk what you're claiming.

What is the relevance to this? I posted 2 indisputable facts countering the notion that Lebron never played in a motion offense.

He did in 2015. Fact.
His stats were the worst he's had since 2007. Fact.

There is no agenda in that.

Huh, what? Facts devoid of context mean next to nothing, and they can absolutely be used to push an agenda.

I posted 2 indisputable facts countering the notion that Michael Jordan is a better basketball player than Horace Grant.

With a healthy Horace Grant, the Bulls were never able to beat the Magic in the playoffs. Fact.
The Bulls were 2 wins worse after Jordan left. The Bulls were 8 wins worse after Grant left and Jordan came back.Fact.

Also, Michael Jordan never won a single playoff series without Scottie Pippen. Another fact.

There is no agenda in that! Just indisputable facts .