Your unpopular takes? (PC Board Edition)

[Colbinii]

Another hot takes galore:

1. Sidney Moncrief isn't a candidate for the best SG defender ever.
2. Shaq wasn't elite defender in 2000.
3. Jerry West with better durability would be a top 10 player ever and he's close to Jordan peak-wise.
4. Bill Russell would be a superstar today.
5. Offensive rebounding is still extremely valuable today.
6. Moses Malone was a better offensive player than Hakeem.
7. Defense still wins titles.

Willing to expand on the bolded?

I dont think Moses being a better offensive player than Hakeem is unpopular. I have a hard time seeing Hakeem > Moses offensively.

[penbeast0]

The case for Hakeem being better offensively than Moses rests on 3 factors:
(1) Playoff performance -- Hakeem's offensive numbers went up consistently and more than almost any other superstar in the playoffs
(2) Passing -- Hakeem wasn't a good passer early on but developed that part of his game (like Bill Russell only to a lesser degree), Moses was a bad passer and never developed into more than mediocre
(3) Aesthetics -- Hakeem's post play which looks terrific even if the actual RS efficiency/volume numbers are not quite as good

Moses's case depends on his Regular season prime (he fell off offensively post prime, particularly on efficiency), Hakeem blows him away in playoff numbers pretty consistently
(1) Offensive rebounding -- Hakeem was a good offensive rebounder, Moses has a case for GOAT
(2) Volume/Efficiency -- Moses in Houston was, like Hakeem, a one man wrecking squad but his prime TS raw scoring/efficiency is better. In 82, for example, he posted a RS ts% equal to the best of Hakeem's career while averaging over 30 ppg (his highest scoring year). He was also terrific at both drawing fouls and shooting FTs for a big man.

[70sFan]

Another hot takes galore:

1. Sidney Moncrief isn't a candidate for the best SG defender ever.
2. Shaq wasn't elite defender in 2000.
3. Jerry West with better durability would be a top 10 player ever and he's close to Jordan peak-wise.
4. Bill Russell would be a superstar today.
5. Offensive rebounding is still extremely valuable today.
6. Moses Malone was a better offensive player than Hakeem.
7. Defense still wins titles.

Willing to expand on the bolded?

2. I have made a lot of long posts about Shaq defense in recent years. I short - Shaq was an intimidating pressence inside, but Lakers defense exceeled mostly by defending jumpshots (or shooting luck?) and while Shaq rim protection certainly made it possible, he had a lot of weaknesses to exploit - and I'm not even talking about his lack of speed or mobility. He had a very mediocre defensive findamentals and his timing was often quite off on contests. Not to mention that even at his apex, his defensive motor wasn't among the best either.

4. Yeah, I think that Russell's defensive style works perfectly today and he'd be aa perfect defender against modern spaced out defenses. I also think that his BBIQ and athleticism gives him a higher ceilling offensively than it did back in the 1960s. In short - imagine peak Draymond Green and Bam Adebayo hybrid, with better shotblocking ability and rebounding (though probably passing closer to Bam than Dray). That's certainly a superstar level player today.

6. I already responded to my Hakeem vs Moses point - Moses had significantly more value without the ball, he's also more portable and I don't see Hakeem's minor passing advantage surpassing that.

[1993Playoffs]

Does anyone agree or disagree with my hot takes that I’ve posted in this thread ? I’m trying to see if some are arguable lol

[AEnigma]

Let me join in on these hot takes

KD peaked as a scorer in 2013

Weird take; not seeing much of a basis.

Shaq was a top 3-5 player his rookie year.

Conceivable, although that almost automatically marks him as a top two to three centre, and I am cautious to go that far.

Giannis, and Curry can be argued over Shaq…

With a heavily modernist lens, conceivable. I like how that plays into the above argument though lol.

CP3 may be the most talented player in NBA history

Per inch of height maybe. “Talent” also a nebulous concept here.

MJ in 1991 was already in athletic decline

Maybe a year early, but conceivable.

David Robinson is a better player than Hakeem

Hottest take here by virtue of being incorrect.
(Also by this scale Shaq is definitely not top three in 1993 lol.)

The 90s were horrible to watch.

I would not say uniquely bad, and I like the style of a few teams… for as dumb as the schemes could be, there were plenty of stretches I found more watchable than certain stretches of what you see today… but an understandable take, yes.

[No-more-rings]

Another take I have is that I think I the longevity of some of today's guys are not as impressive. In other words, it is going to take a lot for me to be moved by today's players and elevate them based on longevity. Guys in their 30s, such as KD, Jimmy Butler, and Damian Lillard are arguably having the best seasons of their careers, at least offensively.

Lillard is 32

Durant is 34

Butler is 33

Steph before his first significant injury of the season, was arguably having his best offensive season ever outside of 16. He turned 35 on March 14.

This isn't normal. But that is kind of the point. Whether it is the league's offensive environment making this more of a possibility or sports-medicine finally getting to that point, this stuff is happening and people are acting as if this is normal. I remember just a couple years ago, there were people who though KD would be cooked after his achilles...turns out he's the one cooking others.

Steph before his first significant injury of the season, was arguably having his best offensive season ever outside of 16.

Yes it’s league environment/spacing/schemes/analytics etc. That’s why people should be careful about comparing offensive efficiency to players from prior eras, especially scoring.

Let’s look at the league scoring leaders:

Embiid: 33.5 ppg/65.4 ts%
Luka: 33 ppg/61.3 ts%
Lillard: 32.4 ppg/64.8 ts%
Giannis: 31.4 ppg/60 ts%
SGA: 31.3 ppg/62.6 ts%
Taytum: 30 ppg/60 ts%

Let’s look at 2009:

Wade: 30.2 ppg/57.4 ts%
Lebron: 28.4 ppg/59.1 ts%
Kobe: 26.8 ppg/56.1 ts%
Dirk: 25.9 ppg/56.4 ts%

2010:

Durant: 30.1 ppg/60.7 ts%
Lebron: 29.7 ppg/60.4 ts%
Melo: 28.2 ppg/54.8 ts%
Kobe: 27 ppg/54.5 ts%
Wade: 26.6 ppg/56.2 ts%


And yeah, the rate of decline hasn’t been typical either. Durant when healthy this year has had arguably the best scoring season of his career if you go by volume and efficiency combination. He’s 34 going on 35, and has lost a lot athletically.

[homecourtloss]

Another hot takes galore:

2. Shaq wasn't elite defender in 2000.

I suppose this depends on what people define as “elite,” but I think this take is supported by data we have available and should be the default opinion. Here’s a very good case that old Hakeem, old Ewing, Shawn Bradley, KG, Duncan, and Mutumbo were all better defensive centers in 2000 on a per possession basis than Shaq was. Shaq was really good defensively nthe playoffs, though, so that ameliorates things a bit.

[penbeast0]

Does anyone agree or disagree with my hot takes that I’ve posted in this thread ? I’m trying to see if some are arguable lol

DRob over Hakeem is a reasonable take for RS, very hard to argue it for playoff performance. Both were amazing defensive players, Robinson maybe a bit better with his size advantage, but Hakeem's consistent elevation of his offensive game in the playoffs is a large enough sample size to be taken seriously while Robinson, like most players, saw his efficiency drop on the offensive end.

[Dutchball97]

Unpopular opinion: idolatry of aesthetics results in mistaken impressions at least as often as idolatry of certain players, and is substantially more common among sports fans who are not simply engaging in routine support of the players for their chosen team.

Are you talking about the mainstream media's hyping up of wings, this board's obsession with 2-way bigs or both?

It can be both, although I am not sure either are the best examples. The latter in particular is not really a big-specific concept either, but if someone high on Russell made that argument, sure, I would be sympathetic.

I think the much bigger issue is offensive superstars being seen as “good enough” on defence. No one thinks Duncan or Hakeem or Garnett are all-time offensive players — the highest evaluation I have seen of any is that specifically peak playoff Hakeem could have been providing high tier offensive value to his team in that era — but I do see someone like Shaq consistently put above them just based on a short-lived regular season stretch where his defence qualified as “good enough”. Which seems to me to be the much more common and more purely “aesthetic” argument.

I'd agree with your overall premise. Too often we see offense being analyzed in detail, while for defense it's just "good", "average" or "bad". Although with the example of Shaq I'd argue Shaq's defensive impact in 2000 was actually well above average. However, I think a problem is that player evaluation does come down to offense + defense, while I'm not sure if there's actually such a clear split between the two. Most of the time someone who is elite at both offense and defense is going to be one of the most impactful players around but I believe there are times where someone is so dominant on one side of the ball that them being average at best on the other end doesn't stop them from having the most overall impact.

[GSP]

Sga right now is having the highest peak of any Seattle/Okc guard ever using only seasons guards have had in that franchise

[LukaTheGOAT]

Another take I have is that I think I the longevity of some of today's guys are not as impressive. In other words, it is going to take a lot for me to be moved by today's players and elevate them based on longevity. Guys in their 30s, such as KD, Jimmy Butler, and Damian Lillard are arguably having the best seasons of their careers, at least offensively.

Lillard is 32

Durant is 34

Butler is 33

Steph before his first significant injury of the season, was arguably having his best offensive season ever outside of 16. He turned 35 on March 14.

This isn't normal. But that is kind of the point. Whether it is the league's offensive environment making this more of a possibility or sports-medicine finally getting to that point, this stuff is happening and people are acting as if this is normal. I remember just a couple years ago, there were people who though KD would be cooked after his achilles...turns out he's the one cooking others.

Steph before his first significant injury of the season, was arguably having his best offensive season ever outside of 16.

Yes it’s league environment/spacing/schemes/analytics etc. That’s why people should be careful about comparing offensive efficiency to players from prior eras, especially scoring.

Let’s look at the league scoring leaders:

Embiid: 33.5 ppg/65.4 ts%
Luka: 33 ppg/61.3 ts%
Lillard: 32.4 ppg/64.8 ts%
Giannis: 31.4 ppg/60 ts%
SGA: 31.3 ppg/62.6 ts%
Taytum: 30 ppg/60 ts%

Let’s look at 2009:

Wade: 30.2 ppg/57.4 ts%
Lebron: 28.4 ppg/59.1 ts%
Kobe: 26.8 ppg/56.1 ts%
Dirk: 25.9 ppg/56.4 ts%

2010:

Durant: 30.1 ppg/60.7 ts%
Lebron: 29.7 ppg/60.4 ts%
Melo: 28.2 ppg/54.8 ts%
Kobe: 27 ppg/54.5 ts%
Wade: 26.6 ppg/56.2 ts%


And yeah, the rate of decline hasn’t been typical either. Durant when healthy this year has had arguably the best scoring season of his career if you go by volume and efficiency combination. He’s 34 going on 35, and has lost a lot athletically.

Yup. As of when this vid was made at least, Lillard was shooting a career-high percentage within 3ft of the rim, by a "comfortable margin."

Watch on YouTube

This is kind of unexpected, especially when you consider Lillard's size and age.

[dygaction]

Jordan is the GOAT
Bill Russell not top 10
Curry and Kobe are underrated, both top 10
LeBron pass KAJ in scoring will make KAJ out of top 5 in the long term
KG and CP3 are overrated, not top 15 (KG) or top 25 (CP3) player

[70sFan]

Jordan is the GOAT

Wow, very controversial

LeBron pass KAJ in scoring will make KAJ out of top 5 in the long term

What do you mean by that? Do you think that people will forget about Kareem achievements without the record, or do you think he was overrated because of this record?

[70sFan]

I have another one - comparing per100 numbers are just as useless as looking at raw numbers, maybe even more so in some cases.

[prolific passer]

If Payton was on Jordan from the start of the 96 finals. Sonics had a good chance of winning the series.
This is coming from a bulls fan.

[jazzfan1971]

Coy award is total crap. Pop should have about 6 coy trophies on his mantle.

Also, 80% of coaches don't do anything for their team success. Hardly any coaches create wins, but a fair number create losses

[Colbinii]

Coy award is total crap. Pop should have about 6 coy trophies on his mantle.

Also, 80% of coaches don't do anything for their team success. Hardly any coaches create wins, but a fair number create losses

This use to be the case, but currently, the NBA is filled with good coaches. There is one legitimately bad coach in the NBA [Silas] while everyone else in what I would consider a bottom tier [Clifford, Donovan, Rivers] are still very competent in comparison to the varying degrees of coaches we saw 5-10 years ago.

[dygaction]

Jordan is the GOAT

Wow, very controversial

LeBron pass KAJ in scoring will make KAJ out of top 5 in the long term

What do you mean by that? Do you think that people will forget about Kareem achievements without the record, or do you think he was overrated because of this record?

I do believe KAJ's all-time scoring title was the first thing coming to mind for ATG ranking and what made him stand out from Wilt/Russel/Shaq/Duncan. Otherwise, peak/prime performance, 6 championships (5 with Magic), and 2 Finals MVPs do not have a distinct advantage over all others.

[70sFan]

Jordan is the GOAT

Wow, very controversial

LeBron pass KAJ in scoring will make KAJ out of top 5 in the long term

What do you mean by that? Do you think that people will forget about Kareem achievements without the record, or do you think he was overrated because of this record?

I do believe KAJ's all-time scoring title was the first thing coming to mind for ATG ranking and what made him stand out from Wilt/Russel/Shaq/Duncan. Otherwise, peak/prime performance, 6 championships (5 with Magic), and 2 Finals MVPs do not have a distinct advantage over all others.

I mean, 6 rings is more than Wilt/Shaq/Duncan and he also has 6 MVPs which is an NBA record.

[OhayoKD]

Wow, very controversial


What do you mean by that? Do you think that people will forget about Kareem achievements without the record, or do you think he was overrated because of this record?

I do believe KAJ's all-time scoring title was the first thing coming to mind for ATG ranking and what made him stand out from Wilt/Russel/Shaq/Duncan. Otherwise, peak/prime performance, 6 championships (5 with Magic), and 2 Finals MVPs do not have a distinct advantage over all others.

I mean, 6 rings is more than Wilt/Shaq/Duncan and he also has 6 MVPs which is an NBA record.

And he was also more valuable during his prime than anyone mentioned here so...