Is Kobe a top 15 all-time player?

[iggymcfrack]

There are players up to like 25~ish who I can see having individual arguments over Kobe. Maybe it's a higher peak, maybe it's better longevity, maybe more consistency year to year, maybe something else entirely like team chemistry or loyalty. However, if you keep putting everyone with any form of argument over Kobe ahead of him then it stops being a objective process with internal consistency.

You could place Karl Malone over Kobe due to his superior longevity but then you can't also put Wade over Kobe due to a higher peak or vice versa. Looking at Kobe's play-off performances I'd agree his clutch factor can be overstated but that doesn't take away from him being a better play-off performer than many guys in that 10-25 range.

I'm pretty sure I had Kobe 11th on my list the last time I checked and while it's possible for active guys (or even guys yet to be drafted) to pass him, it'll probably take quite a few years for me to drop him below 15th. Curry and KD might pass him but neither are guaranteed imo, Giannis is on his way but not entirely sure his game will translate that well into his 30s when his athleticism is on the decline, Jokic at this point seems inevitable but that's likely a bit of recency bias and for guys like Tatum, Luka or even Wemby it's way too early to tell.

I think Karl Malone has a good case for just being better, never mind longevity, so the problem doesn't arise. I agree ppl need to be consistent though.

Agreed, I think '98 Malone vs. '09 Kobe is extremely close for best peak season between the two of them. Malone gets remembered as choking against the Bulls because he did in '97, but he actually played great in the '98 Finals. And if Jordan gets called for his push-off, the Jazz would have been favored at home for Game 7. Very good chance Utah wins the title, Malone wins FMVP, and his career is remembered completely differently.

[bigboi]

I’d say it’s more reasonable to have Kobe inside the Top 10 than outside the Top 15. The only active players that can be placed over Kobe all-time are Curry and Lebron.

Plenty of others have an argument. KDs seems hard to ignore to me. Better on O and D, and fits easier with other players.

On what basis does he fit better with other players? KD hasn’t come close to winning Jack other than with one of the most stacked teams in history. Kobe easily replicates KD’s Championship runs with GSW while the argument could be had that KD could win with Shaq. KD doesn’t sniff the finals with the Gasol Lakers

[MyUniBroDavis]

Passing, playmaking, making his teammates better on offense. Pretty much the things that Paul was better at than Kobe for his whole career.

I am afraid the narrative "Kobe didn't make hims teammates better" isn't backed up by facts. Most of the high quality Kobe teammates had the best seasons next to him.

I agree that Paul was a much better passer, although I think you underrate Kobe's playmaking abilities (he was a GREAT playmaker).

CP3 had a better RAPM than Kobe managed any season except 2006 (when he sucked in the playoffs and quit on his team in a Game 7),

What RAPM database do you use?

better regular season on/off than Kobe had any year except 2006 and 2010,

In what season?

tied for better BPM than Kobe had any year except 2006,

I don't find BPM useful at all.

better TS% than Kobe had any year except 2007,

On much lower volume, so it's not very useful.

better playoff on/off than Kobe had any year except 2009,

Again, what season?

CP3's also someone who constantly overperformed his box score numbers while Kobe constantly underperformed them.

Based on what?

There’s a gitlab rapm database that literally everyone knows sucks and have told him sucks that he continues to reference multiple times lol

[MyUniBroDavis]

Having a serious conversation in this thread died when he called the 2006 round vs the Suns one of the all time biggest disasterclasses in playoff history, a series kobe averaged 28-5-6 on basically 50-40-80, while supporting Chris Paul lmao, and used on-off and raw 6 rapm as evidence in a sample size of 7 games in the playoffs

It’s a waste of time when someone acts like they are genuine but clearly are disingenuous (such as saying oh Kobe was a -36 over the last 3 games of 2008 when he was -35 in one of those individual games) but are also flat out incompetent at using data, clearly trying to throw everything they see at you going something sticks, while clearly not understanding anything about that data and even more so being complete data merchants at the same time


At least one and done is pretty blatantly hating and I isn’t trying to hide it, acting like you want to have a genuine conversation behind being polite but clearly not trying to have one is corny asf, and I get people do this but at least most of them can somewhat back their points in a way that doesn’t scream complete and utter incompetence

[Ambrose]

Having a serious conversation in this thread died when he called the 2006 round vs the Suns one of the all time biggest disasterclasses in playoff history, a series kobe averaged 28-5-6 on basically 50-40-80, while supporting Chris Paul lmao, and used on-off and raw 6 rapm as evidence in a sample size of 7 games in the playoffs

If you were to go through year by year for Chris Paul instead of Kobe and use the same criteria/level of analysis he did...every single season for CP3 is a failure.

[atlantabbq99]

Kobe is in the 11-20 range along with Bird, Pierce, and Dirk

[MyUniBroDavis]

Having a serious conversation in this thread died when he called the 2006 round vs the Suns one of the all time biggest disasterclasses in playoff history, a series kobe averaged 28-5-6 on basically 50-40-80, while supporting Chris Paul lmao, and used on-off and raw 6 rapm as evidence in a sample size of 7 games in the playoffs

If you were to go through year by year for Chris Paul instead of Kobe and use the same criteria/level of analysis he did...every single season for CP3 is a failure.

“Analysis”

[Colbinii]

Kobe is in the 11-20 range along with Bird, Pierce, and Dirk

What? How does PIerce belong in this tier?

Is this Pierce's burner account where he has Pierce > Wade?

[AEnigma]

Kobe is in the 11-20 range along with Bird, Pierce, and Dirk

What? How does PIerce belong in this tier?

Is this Pierce's burner account where he has Pierce > Wade?

Pierce has better long-term RAPM/on-off than Kobe and has more accumulative TS ADD, seems pretty simple!

[eminence]

I do find Pierce a bit underrated, but top 20 contention is awfully generous.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Kobe is in the 11-20 range along with Bird, Pierce, and Dirk

What? How does PIerce belong in this tier?

Is this Pierce's burner account where he has Pierce > Wade?

Pierce has better long-term RAPM/on-off than Kobe and has more accumulative TS ADD, seems pretty simple!

Mods I found the burner account

[HeartBreakKid]

Paul Pierce has a top 20 nickname easily

[Mikeball]

Hes in my top 15. I have Lebron, Durant and Curry ahead as far as active players go

[1993Playoffs]

Just in the past 5-10 years these players have all arguably peaked higher than Kobe

Curry
Jokic
Giannis
KD
Jimmy (yes in the POs)

I really don’t see what make him so much better than any of those guys. Besides playing longer

[iggymcfrack]

Passing, playmaking, making his teammates better on offense. Pretty much the things that Paul was better at than Kobe for his whole career.

I am afraid the narrative "Kobe didn't make hims teammates better" isn't backed up by facts. Most of the high quality Kobe teammates had the best seasons next to him.

I agree that Paul was a much better passer, although I think you underrate Kobe's playmaking abilities (he was a GREAT playmaker).

CP3 had a better RAPM than Kobe managed any season except 2006 (when he sucked in the playoffs and quit on his team in a Game 7),

What RAPM database do you use?

better regular season on/off than Kobe had any year except 2006 and 2010,

In what season?

tied for better BPM than Kobe had any year except 2006,

I don't find BPM useful at all.

better TS% than Kobe had any year except 2007,

On much lower volume, so it's not very useful.

better playoff on/off than Kobe had any year except 2009,

Again, what season?

CP3's also someone who constantly overperformed his box score numbers while Kobe constantly underperformed them.

Based on what?

There’s a gitlab rapm database that literally everyone knows sucks and have told him sucks that he continues to reference multiple times lol

Oh, FFS, it's just the easiest thing to find quickly that has old years. The good RAPM database that I actually based a lot of my opinions on was the 97-14 RAPM that used to be available in a Google spreadsheet that included both RS + PS and was prior informed. That was excellent and the leader in RAPM matched the winner of the retro POY project pretty much every single year. Unfortunately, it seems to be taken down. The fact is though, pretty much any RAPM database you use is going to find Kobe to be a massively overrated player who's not on the level of Chris Paul.

[Doctor MJ]

With all the great players in the NBA in recent years like Curry, KD, etc, is it even defensible to have Kobe top 15 these days?

Defensible? Absolutely. I think it's defensible to have him the Top 10.

But I will say, in my tentative updated list, he fell to #16. So to answer your thread title: No, I don't think he is right now.

Just because I think a little context might answer a lot of questions: I have Dirk Nowitzki ahead of Kobe at this point. Not something I expect that most, and even most knowledgeable folk, would agree with.

[Asianiac_24]

LeBron passed him years ago. Curry is debatable, but IMO will pass him when his career ends.

Jokic/Giannis will pass him if he continues his play for about 4-5 more years.

Luka is a maybe, but personally I don’t think his style of play is conducive to winning a title. So IMO he won’t pass Kobe in the end.

CP3/Harden and the rest have no shot

[Asianiac_24]

Definitely ahead:

MJ
LeBron
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem

Toss-up:
Curry

Have a shot, but not likely:
Durant
Doncic

Barring injury or decline, on pace to pass him:
Jokic
Giannis

[MyUniBroDavis]

I am afraid the narrative "Kobe didn't make hims teammates better" isn't backed up by facts. Most of the high quality Kobe teammates had the best seasons next to him.

I agree that Paul was a much better passer, although I think you underrate Kobe's playmaking abilities (he was a GREAT playmaker).


What RAPM database do you use?


In what season?


I don't find BPM useful at all.


On much lower volume, so it's not very useful.


Again, what season?


Based on what?

There’s a gitlab rapm database that literally everyone knows sucks and have told him sucks that he continues to reference multiple times lol

Oh, FFS, it's just the easiest thing to find quickly that has old years. The good RAPM database that I actually based a lot of my opinions on was the 97-14 RAPM that used to be available in a Google spreadsheet that included both RS + PS and was prior informed. That was excellent and the leader in RAPM matched the winner of the retro POY project pretty much every single year. Unfortunately, it seems to be taken down. The fact is though, pretty much any RAPM database you use is going to find Kobe to be a massively overrated player who's not on the level of Chris Paul.

There’s no way you spent a paragraph typing about an RAPM database that literally all of us know about lmfao

So your justification for using the database everyone on this forum knows is trash including people that don’t use RAPM, is that you are lazy. Got it.

[70sFan]

I am afraid the narrative "Kobe didn't make hims teammates better" isn't backed up by facts. Most of the high quality Kobe teammates had the best seasons next to him.

I agree that Paul was a much better passer, although I think you underrate Kobe's playmaking abilities (he was a GREAT playmaker).


What RAPM database do you use?


In what season?


I don't find BPM useful at all.


On much lower volume, so it's not very useful.


Again, what season?


Based on what?

There’s a gitlab rapm database that literally everyone knows sucks and have told him sucks that he continues to reference multiple times lol

Oh, FFS, it's just the easiest thing to find quickly that has old years. The good RAPM database that I actually based a lot of my opinions on was the 97-14 RAPM that used to be available in a Google spreadsheet that included both RS + PS and was prior informed. That was excellent and the leader in RAPM matched the winner of the retro POY project pretty much every single year. Unfortunately, it seems to be taken down. The fact is though, pretty much any RAPM database you use is going to find Kobe to be a massively overrated player who's not on the level of Chris Paul.

You can still find it here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20201024055547/https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm-2

Kobe is 33rd in that list, not in the 70s. Paul is higher at 11th spot, but this sample includes basically whole Kobe's career and only the best Paul seasons (outside of 2015).

If we go year by year:

2006: Kobe 6th, Paul 124th
2007: Kobe 8th, Paul 73rd
2008: Kobe 6th, Paul 26th
2009: Kobe 5th, Paul 6th
2010: Kobe 4th, Paul 22nd
2011: Kobe 32nd, Paul 7th

So much about Paul destroying Kobe in RAPM... Sorry but it doesn't really look like Paul was in a different tier than Kobe.