Most underrated player of all-time

[tsherkin]

Ray Allen’s handles were better than Reggie’s, but Reggie probably had a quicker first step, and was also craftier with the ball. It just doesn’t make any sense to argue that someone who averaged almost 10 FTA per 100 possessions in the playoffs in his prime and almost 9 FTA per 100 possessions in the regular season in his prime was just a one-dimensional guy who merely “scores off screens and open shots.” It’s just demonstrably wrong.

Free throws do not tell you how quick a guy was, or what his handles were like. Ray also had dunk contest hops and burst. I just disagree with this take.

Yes, FT numbers don’t tell you specifically what aspects of a player allowed them to get to the FT line so much. But luckily for us, I’ve actually watched prime Reggie Miller, and I can tell you that he had a very quick first step and was very crafty about drawing fouls on drives.

He also drew fouls on fadeaways by kicking people like nobody's business, matched only by Old Jordan and Old Karl Malone. xD

But yes, Reggie was EXTREMELY crafty about drawing fouls.

[One_and_Done]

Free throws do not tell you how quick a guy was, or what his handles were like. Ray also had dunk contest hops and burst. I just disagree with this take.

Yes, FT numbers don’t tell you specifically what aspects of a player allowed them to get to the FT line so much. But luckily for us, I’ve actually watched prime Reggie Miller, and I can tell you that he had a very quick first step and was very crafty about drawing fouls on drives.

He also drew fouls on fadeaways by kicking people like nobody's business, matched only by Old Jordan and Old Karl Malone. xD

But yes, Reggie was EXTREMELY crafty about drawing fouls.

And today he wouldn't get alot of those calls.

[lessthanjake]

Free throws do not tell you how quick a guy was, or what his handles were like. Ray also had dunk contest hops and burst. I just disagree with this take.

Yes, FT numbers don’t tell you specifically what aspects of a player allowed them to get to the FT line so much. But luckily for us, I’ve actually watched prime Reggie Miller, and I can tell you that he had a very quick first step and was very crafty about drawing fouls on drives.

And fortunately I watched prime Ray Allen. Reggie had nothing like that burst and athleticism.

https://youtu.be/_J_csbymwXE?si=ANAvvWm-2z5hMbrs

And yet, despite having better athleticism, Ray Allen did not get to the line nearly as much as Reggie Miller. To be a dynamic scorer, you really don’t necessarily need to have that type of athleticism. Craftiness is actually much more important. It’s why guys like SGA and Luka are top-tier scorers these days, despite really not being the most athletic guys. They are just really crafty about getting to their spots and also about drawing fouls in order to get high-percentage trips to the FT line. Reggie Miller combined a quick first step with being extremely crafty, and that was a potent combination then and that type of thing is still a very potent combination now. The idea that he was simply a one-dimensional scorer who just “scores off screens and open shots” is just demonstrably wrong. And since that notion was your only defense for your view that Reggie Miller wouldn’t translate well to today’s game despite being an amazing three-point shooter, you really just don’t have a valid argument at all. What’s actually going on is that you want to say Reggie Miller wouldn’t translate well because you don’t like him, and you’re coming up with a way to get to that conclusion, and since you don’t have much experience watching Reggie Miller, the argument you used to try to get yourself there turned out to be something that was simply untrue.

Also, to be clear, I actually really don’t even like Reggie Miller. In fact, I really hated him back when he was playing. So I definitely am not biased in his favor (not that you’re suggesting I am). If anything, it’s the opposite. And yet, despite that, I think you are making incorrect claims about him, borne out of simply trying to get to a preconceived notion about a player you don’t know much about.

[165bows]

Finals MVP Cedric Maxwell.

[tsherkin]

Yes, FT numbers don’t tell you specifically what aspects of a player allowed them to get to the FT line so much. But luckily for us, I’ve actually watched prime Reggie Miller, and I can tell you that he had a very quick first step and was very crafty about drawing fouls on drives.

He also drew fouls on fadeaways by kicking people like nobody's business, matched only by Old Jordan and Old Karl Malone. xD

But yes, Reggie was EXTREMELY crafty about drawing fouls.

And today he wouldn't get alot of those calls.

And?

[OhayoKD]

Yes, FT numbers don’t tell you specifically what aspects of a player allowed them to get to the FT line so much.

And fortunately I watched prime Ray Allen. Reggie had nothing like that burst and athleticism.

https://youtu.be/_J_csbymwXE?si=ANAvvWm-2z5hMbrs

And yet, despite having better athleticism, Ray Allen did not get to the line nearly as much as Reggie Miller. To be a dynamic scorer, you really don’t necessarily need to have that type of athleticism. Craftiness is actually much more important. It’s why guys like SGA and Luka are top-tier scorers these days, despite really not being the most athletic guys. They are just really crafty about getting to their spots and also about drawing fouls in order to get high-percentage trips to the FT line. Reggie Miller combined a quick first step with being extremely crafty, and that was a potent combination then and that type of thing is still a very potent combination now. The idea that he was simply a one-dimensional scorer who just “scores off screens and open shots” is just demonstrably wrong. And since that notion was your only defense for your view that Reggie Miller wouldn’t translate well to today’s game despite being an amazing three-point shooter.

Basic deductive reasoning should tell being an amazing three-point shooter in the 90s is a massive translation issue for the 2020s where three-point shooting is a far better developed attribute among Reggie's competition.

But luckily for us, I’ve actually watched prime Reggie Miller, and I can tell you that he had a very quick first step and was very crafty about drawing fouls on drives.

Unlucky for you, you've built a reputation of frequently being wrong on claims regarding old basketball players, which is why most of us don't give a **** what you say you've watched. There is really no reason to think you've watched anything one and done hasn't or vice versa. Neither of you have ever broke out film for anything, and the one time you tried to look at tape someone else provided, we found you unable to differentiate between there being two defenders around a player vs one.


"i watched reggie play" is not an argument for his craftiness translating. That is a position that would require noting what specifically he is doing someone more explosive like Allen is not. And fwiw, for the singular poster in this thread who actually brought that up

He also drew fouls on fadeaways by kicking people like nobody's business, matched only by Old Jordan and Old Karl Malone. xD

But yes, Reggie was EXTREMELY crafty about drawing fouls.

And today he wouldn't get alot of those calls.

And?

His craftiness would not translate leaving us a limited passer and ball-handler trying to make bank with deep shooting: an attribute he used to be the best at and is now nowhere close.

And that is before we consider the massive (recorded) gap in measurables between players from when he retired to the players of today, or the far bigger talent pool.

Which is to say, if you think Reggie Miller would be as good today as he was in the 90s. Your eyetest is pretty ****. Which, to be fair, alot of us already suspected.

[One_and_Done]

He also drew fouls on fadeaways by kicking people like nobody's business, matched only by Old Jordan and Old Karl Malone. xD

But yes, Reggie was EXTREMELY crafty about drawing fouls.

And today he wouldn't get alot of those calls.

And?

Seems relevant for the argument he would supposedly be more impactful today.

[tsherkin]

Seems relevant for the argument he would supposedly be more impactful today.

You quoted me. I was wondering as to the relevance of your reply to anything I said.

His craftiness would not translate leaving us a limited passer and ball-handler trying to make bank with deep shooting: an attribute he used to be the best at and is now nowhere close.

Some of the particulars wouldn't translate; he'd still be an outstanding player at drawing fouls. I don't see that changing much. That said, he would 100% be something like a better version of Klay Thompson, no doubt.

Reggie was an 18/3/3 player on deep teams. He wasn't a huge north-south guy, he wasn't an All-D guy, wasn't a high-end playmaker. He had gravity and he was hyper-efficient, and those things would remain today. He stepped it up to like 23, 24 ppg on average for about a decade in the playoffs, but yes, it's clear he had limitations as a player. He was a movement shooter, and he was very good at it.

Your eyetest is pretty ****. Which, to be fair, alot of us already suspected.

Was this part for me?

[OhayoKD]

Your eyetest is pretty ****. Which, to be fair, alot of us already suspected.

Was this part for me?

Obviously not: You're a ball knower frfr.

And even if not, DA LAND doesn't eat it's own (in public, anyway)

His craftiness would not translate leaving us a limited passer and ball-handler trying to make bank with deep shooting: an attribute he used to be the best at and is now nowhere close.

Some of the particulars wouldn't translate; he'd still be an outstanding player at drawing fouls. I don't see that changing much. That said, he would 100% be something like a better version of Klay Thompson, no doubt.

Probably. Though you'll have to hide him more on defense. I guess your "and" was just diplomatic

Reggie was an 18/3/3 player on deep teams. He wasn't a huge north-south guy, he wasn't an All-D guy, wasn't a high-end playmaker. He had gravity and he was hyper-efficient, and those things would remain today. He stepped it up to like 23, 24 ppg on average for about a decade in the playoffs, but yes, it's clear he had limitations as a player. He was a movement shooter, and he was very good at it

He should yield more off-ball creation now.

[tone wone]

Miller was a 6'7 shameless flopper and Allen was a 6'5 ethical Hooper. Drawing fouls is a skill but at least acknowledge how those fouls were drawn. A notorious leg-kicker who would throw his puny body into defenders and yell or react to slight contact like he got shot. Ray Allen didn't play like this.

Also, Miller "playoff riser" rep is partly due to his relatively unimpressive regular season volume. It's honestly great he was able to maintain his efficiency but what you guys are praising is basically going from 19-21ppg in 34mpg to 23-25ppg in 37mpg

[falcolombardi]

Miller was a 6'7 shameless flopper and Allen was a 6'5 ethical Hooper. Drawing fouls is a skill but at least acknowledge how those fouls were drawn. A notorious leg-kicker who would throw his puny body into defenders and yell or react to slight contact like he got shot. Ray Allen didn't play like this.

Also, Miller "playoff riser" rep is partly due to his relatively unimpressive regular season volume. It's honestly great he was able to maintain his efficiency but what you guys are praising is basically going from 19-21ppg in 34mpg to 23-25ppg in 37mpg

Leg kicking is the OG rip through contact

Jordan, kobe,reggie all would get calls doing it

[165bows]

Finals MVP Cedric Maxwell.

Positive TS added his entire career, accumulated 1571 TS added over 11 seasons including peaks of 328 and 294. Way ahead of his time with his scoring efficiency.

[Cavsfansince84]

Miller was a 6'7 shameless flopper and Allen was a 6'5 ethical Hooper. Drawing fouls is a skill but at least acknowledge how those fouls were drawn. A notorious leg-kicker who would throw his puny body into defenders and yell or react to slight contact like he got shot. Ray Allen didn't play like this.

Also, Miller "playoff riser" rep is partly due to his relatively unimpressive regular season volume. It's honestly great he was able to maintain his efficiency but what you guys are praising is basically going from 19-21ppg in 34mpg to 23-25ppg in 37mpg

I don't think criticizing the way in which Reggie drew fouls does much to lower what he did as a player since he didn't really get to the line that much anyhow. The strength of his game was his ability to run defenders ragged around the court, use screens and shoot 40% or higher from 3 11 times. Now if the question is who do I think was better in their primes and would be better today I'd say Ray but Reggie was the cornerstone of Indy's offense for 12 years and despite his low box score stats still led them in win shares like 12 times also. MJ did his own share of foul baiting as well and would get very ticky tack calls in the paint or on his elbow fades.