Jerry West vs Kevin Durant

[Matt15]

Yet another constant disrespect of KD, he is extremely underrated. I've seen it all. KD is actually this highly disrespected. We are putting him in Jerry West conversations now, what's next Kobe in AI convos? Lebron in Wade convos? Giannis in Jordan convos?

Jokic in Luka convos? SGA in Hali convos? Like cmon man

Jerry West is an all-time great who is consistently ranked among the top 15 players ever. So how is it disrespectful to compare him to Durant?

[Top10alltime]

Yet another constant disrespect of KD, he is extremely underrated. I've seen it all. KD is actually this highly disrespected. We are putting him in Jerry West conversations now, what's next Kobe in AI convos? Lebron in Wade convos? Giannis in Jordan convos?

Jokic in Luka convos? SGA in Hali convos? Like cmon man

Jerry West is an all-time great who is consistently ranked among the top 15 players ever. So how is it disrespectful to compare him to Durant?

Jerry West might not be top 20 all-time. Was consistently outperformed by Oscar year by year, until 1970 where Oscar showed his scalability. Then West gave the first option to Wilt.

Great offensive player. Not even better than Dirk in that category, who is far worse than Durant. Mid defender

[70sFan]

Yet another constant disrespect of KD, he is extremely underrated. I've seen it all. KD is actually this highly disrespected. We are putting him in Jerry West conversations now, what's next Kobe in AI convos? Lebron in Wade convos? Giannis in Jordan convos?

Jokic in Luka convos? SGA in Hali convos? Like cmon man

Jerry West is an all-time great who is consistently ranked among the top 15 players ever. So how is it disrespectful to compare him to Durant?

Jerry West might not be top 20 all-time. Was consistently outperformed by Oscar year by year, until 1970 where Oscar showed his scalability. Then West gave the first option to Wilt.

Great offensive player. Not even better than Dirk in that category, who is far worse than Durant. Mid defender

1. Dirk literally got voted ahead of Durant in our peaks project recently.
2. You state your opinions (which are defensible, but often controversial) as facts and then you use them as the premises to your conclusions. All it takes is to disagree with the premises, which isn't that hard.
3. Calling West a mid defender in comparison to Durant is strange.

[One_and_Done]

Yet another constant disrespect of KD, he is extremely underrated. I've seen it all. KD is actually this highly disrespected. We are putting him in Jerry West conversations now, what's next Kobe in AI convos? Lebron in Wade convos? Giannis in Jordan convos?

Jokic in Luka convos? SGA in Hali convos? Like cmon man

Jerry West is an all-time great who is consistently ranked among the top 15 players ever. So how is it disrespectful to compare him to Durant?

He was great for his era, but as I explained he'd be nothing special today.

[Top10alltime]

Jerry West is an all-time great who is consistently ranked among the top 15 players ever. So how is it disrespectful to compare him to Durant?

Jerry West might not be top 20 all-time. Was consistently outperformed by Oscar year by year, until 1970 where Oscar showed his scalability. Then West gave the first option to Wilt.

Great offensive player. Not even better than Dirk in that category, who is far worse than Durant. Mid defender

1. Dirk literally got voted ahead of Durant in our peaks project recently.
2. You state your opinions (which are defensible, but often controversial) as facts and then you use them as the premises to your conclusions. All it takes is to disagree with the premises, which isn't that hard.
3. Calling West a mid defender in comparison to Durant is strange.

1. KD is still better. Do you think I'm listening to lunatics, mentally unwell clowns, like this guy below? Yeah, definitely not, what a joke . Even KcKtiny is better than this man

1. Kevin Garnett is obnoxiously overrated. Started off his career with 7 consecutive 1st round exits. 13-13 in playoff series for his career and 71-73 in playoff games overall. Finished in the top 10 in blocked shots just once in his entire career. Had no pet move unless you consider a 15 foot jumper a pet move. Was not a floor raiser and couldn’t carry a team in the postseason because he was offensively inept. Never scored above 40 in a playoff game and only scored 30+ nine times in 144 games. Lots of RealGM’ers have him in their top 10 all time

2. Kobe Bryant owes his place in history to nothing more than good luck. If he never got traded on draft day and spent his entire career in Charlotte, his career would mirror guys like George Gervin, Dominique Wilkins, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady and others who racked up tons of points and highlights but nothing else. He was lucky to play with prime Shaq for his first 3 rings. Any hyper athletic SG would have won rings with Shaq at the time. Young Shaq took Penny to the Finals and old Shaq took Wade to the Finals. Prime Shaq would have taken Vince, Tracy, Iverson etc to the Finals as well. Kobe was just along for the ride at the time. He was also lucky to inherit Phil Jackson when he was already established with his 6 rings from Chicago and was super fortunate to get Pau Gasol to enable him to win two more rings after Shaq’s departure. Kobe without Shaq or Pau was basically a taller Allen Iverson; a great scorer on horrific efficiency. Kobe got lucky.

3. Phil Jackson is overrated. Phil inherited Jordan and Pippen and then Shaq and Kobe and finally Kobe and Pau. Any coach would win with that talent. His zen master bullsh-t would’ve made no difference if his first coaching gig was in Sacramento or Washington or Atlanta. He would have struggled for a few years, gotten fired and would have never been heard from again. His entire career and all of his success is based on good timing and loaded rosters.

4. Reggie Miller is not a top 75 all time guy. Made three All NBA Third Teams in a 18 year career. That means he was never considered a top 10 player in any season in his career. How can you be a top 75 player ever when you were never even a top 10 player for one year in your own time? Dude couldn’t rebound, couldn’t put the ball on the floor, didn’t create offense for anybody and needed to run off of a million screens just to get contested 20 footers. Never even won a 3-point contest despite competing numerous times. Give him credit for being a great 3-point shooter and great FT shooter and for making some memorable shots but never made the Finals until Jordan retired and when he did he lost. Historically overrated. He wasn’t even as good as guys like Paul Westphal, Dale Ellis, Latrell Sprewell, Walter Davis, Jeff Malone, Fat Lever or Mitch Richmond.

2. It's controversial, because almost everyone follows casual narrative, but not me.

3. KD is better than West at off-ball defense, screen navigation, versatility, rim protection, and recovery, which lifted floor/ceiling of team far more than Jerry West did. If you're going to make any case for West, it's going to be his offense which he's not better than CP3 at.

[One_and_Done]

A great example of cognitive dissonance is people who simultaneously claim West is a great defender, and that nobody back then was allowed to dribble like today. Do you think the 2 things might be connected?

Back then guards had limited handles and most plays were post ups or isos of some kind. The job a guard had on D was completely different (and much easier). Not that the job of a 5 like Russell wasn't easier than today too; dude did the same thing on most defensive possessions; ran in a straight line back to his spot on the post and stood there. How complex.

[70sFan]

Jerry West might not be top 20 all-time. Was consistently outperformed by Oscar year by year, until 1970 where Oscar showed his scalability. Then West gave the first option to Wilt.

Great offensive player. Not even better than Dirk in that category, who is far worse than Durant. Mid defender

1. Dirk literally got voted ahead of Durant in our peaks project recently.
2. You state your opinions (which are defensible, but often controversial) as facts and then you use them as the premises to your conclusions. All it takes is to disagree with the premises, which isn't that hard.
3. Calling West a mid defender in comparison to Durant is strange.

1. KD is still better. Do you think I'm listening to lunatics, mentally unwell clowns, like this guy below? Yeah, definitely not, what a joke . Even KcKtiny is better than this man

1. Kevin Garnett is obnoxiously overrated. Started off his career with 7 consecutive 1st round exits. 13-13 in playoff series for his career and 71-73 in playoff games overall. Finished in the top 10 in blocked shots just once in his entire career. Had no pet move unless you consider a 15 foot jumper a pet move. Was not a floor raiser and couldn’t carry a team in the postseason because he was offensively inept. Never scored above 40 in a playoff game and only scored 30+ nine times in 144 games. Lots of RealGM’ers have him in their top 10 all time

2. Kobe Bryant owes his place in history to nothing more than good luck. If he never got traded on draft day and spent his entire career in Charlotte, his career would mirror guys like George Gervin, Dominique Wilkins, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady and others who racked up tons of points and highlights but nothing else. He was lucky to play with prime Shaq for his first 3 rings. Any hyper athletic SG would have won rings with Shaq at the time. Young Shaq took Penny to the Finals and old Shaq took Wade to the Finals. Prime Shaq would have taken Vince, Tracy, Iverson etc to the Finals as well. Kobe was just along for the ride at the time. He was also lucky to inherit Phil Jackson when he was already established with his 6 rings from Chicago and was super fortunate to get Pau Gasol to enable him to win two more rings after Shaq’s departure. Kobe without Shaq or Pau was basically a taller Allen Iverson; a great scorer on horrific efficiency. Kobe got lucky.

3. Phil Jackson is overrated. Phil inherited Jordan and Pippen and then Shaq and Kobe and finally Kobe and Pau. Any coach would win with that talent. His zen master bullsh-t would’ve made no difference if his first coaching gig was in Sacramento or Washington or Atlanta. He would have struggled for a few years, gotten fired and would have never been heard from again. His entire career and all of his success is based on good timing and loaded rosters.

4. Reggie Miller is not a top 75 all time guy. Made three All NBA Third Teams in a 18 year career. That means he was never considered a top 10 player in any season in his career. How can you be a top 75 player ever when you were never even a top 10 player for one year in your own time? Dude couldn’t rebound, couldn’t put the ball on the floor, didn’t create offense for anybody and needed to run off of a million screens just to get contested 20 footers. Never even won a 3-point contest despite competing numerous times. Give him credit for being a great 3-point shooter and great FT shooter and for making some memorable shots but never made the Finals until Jordan retired and when he did he lost. Historically overrated. He wasn’t even as good as guys like Paul Westphal, Dale Ellis, Latrell Sprewell, Walter Davis, Jeff Malone, Fat Lever or Mitch Richmond.

2. It's controversial, because almost everyone follows casual narrative, but not me.

3. KD is better than West at off-ball defense, screen navigation, versatility, rim protection, and recovery, which lifted floor/ceiling of team far more than Jerry West did. If you're going to make any case for West, it's going to be his offense which he's not better than CP3 at.

I didn't know that HairJordan participated in our project and I moderate the project.

So you genuinely believe that Durant was better at screen navigation than Jerry West?

[Jaivl]

A great example of cognitive dissonance is people who simultaneously claim West is a great defender, and that nobody back then was allowed to dribble like today. Do you think the 2 things might be connected?

Back then guards had limited handles and most plays were post ups or isos of some kind. The job a guard had on D was completely different (and much easier). Not that the job of a 5 like Russell wasn't easier than today too; dude did the same thing on most defensive possessions; ran in a straight line back to his spot on the post and stood there. How complex.

It's true that rules at the time made it way easier for guards to be impactful defensively, but they also limited their offensive impacts in a big way. Overall, probably a balanced tradeoff.

[One_and_Done]

A great example of cognitive dissonance is people who simultaneously claim West is a great defender, and that nobody back then was allowed to dribble like today. Do you think the 2 things might be connected?

Back then guards had limited handles and most plays were post ups or isos of some kind. The job a guard had on D was completely different (and much easier). Not that the job of a 5 like Russell wasn't easier than today too; dude did the same thing on most defensive possessions; ran in a straight line back to his spot on the post and stood there. How complex.

It's true that rules at the time made it way easier for guards to be impactful defensively, but they also limited their offensive impacts in a big way. Overall, probably a balanced tradeoff.

Except you can't just grant that 2 guards then could develop a modern skillset. That leaves us with players who didn't prove they had the skillset on either end to make it today.

[70sFan]

A great example of cognitive dissonance is people who simultaneously claim West is a great defender, and that nobody back then was allowed to dribble like today. Do you think the 2 things might be connected?

Back then guards had limited handles and most plays were post ups or isos of some kind. The job a guard had on D was completely different (and much easier). Not that the job of a 5 like Russell wasn't easier than today too; dude did the same thing on most defensive possessions; ran in a straight line back to his spot on the post and stood there. How complex.

It's true that rules at the time made it way easier for guards to be impactful defensively, but they also limited their offensive impacts in a big way. Overall, probably a balanced tradeoff.

Except you can't just grant that 2 guards then could develop a modern skillset. That leaves us with players who didn't prove they had the skillset on either end to make it today.

Correct, they proved they had the skills to thrive in significantly more challenging environment, so they should get more benefit of doubt by your own standards.

It's funny how you twist logic to push certain agendas.

[One_and_Done]

The environment was less challenging in most respects. The players were worse, especially the ones they were defending.

[penbeast0]

You all know better than to insult other posters. The insulting poster has been banned for 12 hours while we decide if they should receive a stronger penalty.

[70sFan]

The environment was less challenging in most respects. The players were worse, especially the ones they were defending.

The environment was more challenging in all respects outside of players abilities.

[hagredionis]

Some weird takes in this thread. They're both fantastic scorerers but West has better playmaking skills, plays better defense, is more clutch and is a better leader. West is the logo, does anybody think KD should be the logo? Come on.

[One_and_Done]

Some weird takes in this thread. They're both fantastic scorerers but West has better playmaking skills, plays better defense, is more clutch and is a better leader. West is the logo, does anybody think KD should be the logo? Come on.

If he'd played in the barely professional league that West did most would be calling him the GOAT.

[70sFan]

Some weird takes in this thread. They're both fantastic scorerers but West has better playmaking skills, plays better defense, is more clutch and is a better leader. West is the logo, does anybody think KD should be the logo? Come on.

If he'd played in the barely professional league that West did most would be calling him the GOAT.

Except you, you'd say he wouldn't make the league today.

[One_and_Done]

Some weird takes in this thread. They're both fantastic scorerers but West has better playmaking skills, plays better defense, is more clutch and is a better leader. West is the logo, does anybody think KD should be the logo? Come on.

If he'd played in the barely professional league that West did most would be calling him the GOAT.

Except you, you'd say he wouldn't make the league today.

If there had been anyone that good back then, I'd rank them very highly, like I do Kareem. I'm just not going to give credit to a guard with no handle or proven 3pt shot, who made his bones guarding other inferior guards who lacked a modern dribble or 3pt shot.

Guard is just not a player type that translates to today's superior league.

[70sFan]

If he'd played in the barely professional league that West did most would be calling him the GOAT.

Except you, you'd say he wouldn't make the league today.

If there had been anyone that good back then, I'd rank them very highly, like I do Kareem. I'm just not going to give credit to a guard with no handle or proven 3pt shot, who made his bones guarding other inferior guards who lacked a modern dribble or 3pt shot.

Guard is just not a player type that translates to today's superior league.

Durant wouldn't show modern handles or proven 3p shot in the 1960s either.

[One_and_Done]

Except you, you'd say he wouldn't make the league today.

If there had been anyone that good back then, I'd rank them very highly, like I do Kareem. I'm just not going to give credit to a guard with no handle or proven 3pt shot, who made his bones guarding other inferior guards who lacked a modern dribble or 3pt shot.

Guard is just not a player type that translates to today's superior league.

Durant wouldn't show modern handles or proven 3p shot in the 1960s either.

KD is one guy where the handles discussion is irrelevant. He doesn't need to dribble much if at all when you port him to the 60s. You just give him the ball and watch as he unleashes his unstoppable shot from ridiculous distances at ridiculous percentages. Even without the 3pt line he'd warp everything and break the league.

[70sFan]

If there had been anyone that good back then, I'd rank them very highly, like I do Kareem. I'm just not going to give credit to a guard with no handle or proven 3pt shot, who made his bones guarding other inferior guards who lacked a modern dribble or 3pt shot.

Guard is just not a player type that translates to today's superior league.

Durant wouldn't show modern handles or proven 3p shot in the 1960s either.

KD is one guy where the handles discussion is irrelevant. He doesn't need to dribble much if at all when you port him to the 60s. You just give him the ball and watch as he unleashes his unstoppable shot from ridiculous distances at ridiculous percentages. Even without the 3pt line he'd warp everything and break the league.

I doubt shooting 40% or even 50% from long twos would break the league. That's not how basketball works.