RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #4 — 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon

[AEnigma]

To that point, there is not especially much to suggest 2000 Shaq was playing well beyond his usual prime level in the postseason. And while I feel that way about most peaks relative to most primes, to the extent it is relevant here, Duncan is one of the players for whom that is the exception.

[Elpolo_14]

4. TIM DUNCAN 2003 ( 2002 > 2004 = 1999 > 2001 )
Great regular and post season in which he shouldered a heavy load in both end of the floor with not much help on the offensive side. Impact metrics look great, especially in the playoffs. Defense is replicable in many different eras and can bring value in many situation while his offense was continuously resilient throughout the playoffs.
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1. Defense and rebound
Duncan is an all time defensive motor for the team and his impact on defense even while playing PF ( not is real position and he give the position the D.rob ). Elite interior defender as his presence is enough to destabilize the offensive team. He can block shot / contest / Clean up for Prerimeter failure or even roam around to be able to help all the teammates if needed. With his size and really quick foot he can guard big or wing without much problem. Not much player ( except Shaq ) can penetrate Tim Duncan post defense regularly. He also a good PnR defender to keep up with the ball handler or the rill man. Not much exploitable in the prerimeter either.
Have Great rebounding ability as he can Boxout with his frame and strength to overpower other player in the paint. Good balance and center of gravity to not be moved around easy additional with great defensive awareness make him a great rebounder
PLAYOFF : 12.7 RPG
REG SZN : 14.4 RPG

2. SCORING
He good in the overall scoring department. He have great post move and post scoring ability. An reliable mid range and elite rim touch. His FT shooting is decent enough to not be a weakness or can be good cause he force the opposite team to foul him making the defense less aggressive ( RS - 71.0% / PS- 67.7% ) . His scoring traits doesn't get limited by playoff scheme or person either ( with this year specificly )
REG SZN : 26.2 PPG on +4.2 rTS ( +5.8 rts adj to own shot Putback )
Playoff : 25.4 PPG on +6.2 rTS adj. ( Against -1.6 rDRTG )
3. PLAYMAKER
Duncan have Great read and good passing package to be impactful in this aspect of the game. Really good bounce pass and overhead pass. Great IQ to make or create separation for his teammates with his post gravity. All time screen setter with great screen timing. Elite roll man in the PNR or he can be be the ball handler who drive to the basket to pass out cause he get double by the defense too.
TIM DUNCAN STAT
REG SZN : 26.2 PPG / 14.4 RPG / 4.4 APG with 4.1 stocks and 3.4 TOV
PLAYOFF : 25.4 PPG / 12.7 RPG /5.4 APG With 3.8 Stocks and 3.2 TOV


The SPURS
REG SZN
RECORD 60-22 -> 5.65 SRS ( top 3 In league )
Offense Rating of +2.0 rORTG ( Top 7 in league)
Defense Rating of -3.9 rDRTG ( Top 3 in league )

PLAYOFF
Playoff Offensive Rating: +1.80 (83rd), Playoff Defensive Rating: -8.65 (14th)
Playoff SRS: +10.66 (47th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +3.36 (34th)
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.75 (34th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -1.70 (59th)

To Add on : Duncan playing more minutes than his second option by a significant amount will push his on court impact down to some extent due to him playing with the second rotation or the bench. Tim Duncan on/off is a +8.8 Net rating ( +16.3 Swing )
He lead +3.9 rORTG and -4.9 rDRTG on court .

Duncan 2003 Offensive On/Off
his impact swing is +13.5 ( on +3.9 vs off -8.6 )

When Duncan is on the floor his team Shoot more efficiently and are less TOv Prone -> 54.2 TS% ( +3.0 better than off ) / 16.8 TOV% ( -2.2 better than off ) / 31.4 OREB% ( +7.4 better than off )
DUNCAN being an elite Offensive rebounder make his team offense much easier to sustain their production with all the possession retain or Putback shot.

His defense on/off :
Impact on Defense when Duncan is on he floor -> 98.4 rDRTG ( -3.7 better ) / 48.3 D-TS% ( -5.2 better ) / 16.0 D-TOV% ( +2.2 Better ) / 31.1 D-REB% ( +3.2 better than off )

Even without hi best interior defender on D.rob. Duncan able to lead -2.6 rDRTg ( 5.5 swing if Duncan was off too ).
Duncan have an all time defensive anchor ability even tho he needed to play with D.rob who was hurting Duncan overall Impact.
The next year in 2004 when D.rob already retire Duncan was able to anchor -8.8 rDRTG ( best in the history post 60s ) which prove that he didn't need D.rob as much as we might have thought.
But not to diminish D.rob who was excellent defender in the playoffs especially against the Lakers with Shaq which he was the primary role and Duncan as help defender.


In PLAYOFFS on court
Duncan when on the floor in the playoffs Lead a +3.4rORTG adj and -10.2 rDRTG adj.. against elite defensive team ( -1.6 rDRTG and +2.7 rORTG )

1. Against the SUNS ( +0.1 rORTG / -0.9 rDRTG ) DUNCAN lead -3.1 rORTG adj. / 13.7 rDRTG adj.

2. Against LAKERS ( +3.6 rORTG / 1.2 rDRTG ) DUNCAN lead +6.6 rORTG adj. / -7.1 rDRTG adj.

3. Against MAVS ( +7.1 rORTG / -1.2 rDRTG ) DUNCAN lead +8.2 rORTG adj. / -8.9 rDRTG adj

4. Against NETS ( +0.2 rORTg / -5.6 rDRTG ) DUNCAN lead +2.2 rORTG adj. / -11.6 rDRtG adj

Duncan being the Top 4 best defender all time ( bill Hakeem KG in conversation ) with all his interior defensive Skillsets couple it with his best year offensively which was able to translate in the playoffs ( even with the lack of offensive help by his teammates D.rob / Rookie Tony / Second year Manu were all bad offensive player.
1. Tony lack the efficiency and decision making
2. D rob lack the self creation and aggressiveness
3. Manu lack the volume and enough court awareness to be impactful and he was not efficient )

Duncan playoff run is nothing but an All-time Carry Job on both end of the floor with excellent productivity even against Good team


This is the results of my tracking when Duncan was Guarding Shaq as a primary role in 2002 Thanks to *70sFan compilation*( without D.rob ) " it not 2003 but the premises of the player ability still the same "
Overall ( 5 game series )
- Contest - 29
- NO LAZY CONTEST AT ALL.
- SHAQ D-FGA - 40
- SHAQ D- FGM - 17
- SHAQ D-FG -> 17/40 or 0.425 FG%

Summarize - Duncan able to hold is own against Shaq but still got overpower in many occasions. Forcing the Spurs to send help when they're on an island. Duncan in transition isn't able to guard Shaq very which resort to Foul many time. But Duncan discipline and Court awareness able to put Shaq in harder situation anytime and able to positioning himself great enough to force Shaq against a Spurs help.

This show that even with the lack of second back line help Duncan able to Slow Shaq down to the point of 42.5 FG% ( on 40 FGA )which is extremely well. Shaq in that series Shot a total of 94 FGA ( so Duncan was on him around 40% of his shot ) - if we subtract Shot that Duncan was primary on Shaq - He would have 54 FGA on 46.3 FG%. So the differential is -3.8%


4. HAKEEM 1994 ( 1993 > 1995 >= 1989 = 1986 )
The best Center in the 90s era with Goat tier defensive ability and Elite offense which he able to uplift his team both end of the floor.

1. SCORING
Goat tier post scoring ability with his strength+ elite movement both Upper body and foot work ( know as the dream shake ). Can post up smaller defense by out muscle them or Post-up huge big with Skillsets and fake them to make an uncontested Shot or outmaneuvered with spin move . With all the Post move mave his rim pressure ( lob threat + drive )and rim touch also all time great level. Hakeem have a reliable midrange at the elbow or Short corner that create Spacing both for himself and teammates ( due to his great midrange that open up great PnP game ). Great transition with his physicality and drive pressure in paint. His shot diet and tempo get improve a lot in 1993 to 1995 time with his more control and less reactionary shot. Add to all these Skillsets he have an elite tough shot making instinct. Any regular Center who got left guarding him one-one are in a bad situation.

2. Passing and Playmaking
With the établish Scoring threat Hakeem push on the defense around the rim. That create a big gravity which help build Seperation for his teammates at the prerimeter ( midrange and THREE-POINTER ). With the new offense RUDY ( coach ) run to operate a 3pt play with Hakeem as the center of gravity on offense make Hakeem ability at the rim even more valuable. Hakeem have a basic passing arsenal with bounce pass / regular pass / overhead pass but combine with the defense Attention he able to time elite timing when the double is near him and not close to teammates operating Space. His footwork also help to fake the defense to make them believe on a scoring attempt which end up as a pass. But he still have weakness his contant post movement make him miss Rim creation ( aka open mate at paint ) or cutting/slashing teammates near the paint. His scoring aggressive also make him lack court awareness for some open play.

3. Defense and rebound.
Goat tier Interior defense with his speed and awareness. His awareness also help him as a Roamer to cut the driving lane or to come contest/closeout shot which his teammates aren't able to keep up. His shot blocking ability combine with his perseverance to cleanup ( his recovery and foot bust is a big factor ) for his team make his rim presence incomparable. His lateral and vertical movement + timing to contest always make the offense struggle. His post defense is great with physicality and body control+ hand movements. He able to guard Wing at the prerimeter or in a PNR which he can be elite to defend both the roll man or ball handler.
For rebounding he have elite positioning and movement to get rebound at the easiest point. With his vertical and strength help him Boxout other center.

The Rocket REG SZN
Record 58-34 : 4.19 SRS ( top 6 )
Offense: -0.4 rORTG ( top 15 )
Defense: -4.9 rDRTG ( TOP 2 only behind knick who were -8 )

PLAYOFF HAKEEM able to anchor +1.3 rORTG and -2.7 rDRTG = 3.5 Net rating.
Or +4.0 rORTG Adj. And -4.5 rDRTG adj. To opponent ( offense and defense in regular season )

Hakeem stat ( IA/75 )
REG : 27.2 PPG / 11.8 RPG / 3.5 APG with 3.3 TOV 5.3 Stocks on 56.5 TS ( +3.7 rTS )

Playoff : 29.0 PPG / 11.0 RPG / 4.3 APG with 3.6 TOV 5.8 Stocks on 56.8 TS ( +4.8 rTS adj. Against -2.7 rDRTG )

HAKEEM WOWY from 1993 -> 1995 ( to have a bigger sample size )
With : 0.667 Win or 55 win Pace
Offense: 109.0 O-Rating
Defense: 104.9 D-Rating

Without: 0.333 Win or 27 win Pace
Offense : 109.3 O-Rating
Defense: 112.1 D-Rating

His team defense got hurt the most cause Hakeem is the hearts and soul of the defensive motor.

Hakeem was the best defender in this year by a big margin and his offensive Resiliency even against all time defense as the Knick in Final especially as a scorer which he able to out perform any other great big / wing in a single playoff run is insane.

For me 1994 and 1993 are equally as good


Hakeem Scalability to the New style of offense RUDY implement really show how prolific Hakeem can be in a great system.

One of the most fascinating aspect of Hakeem playoff run might be how he fair against other team Bigmen *no matter if they were star or not . Let look at their Scoring Stat ( stat is NOT everything but it easier to show than tell people to go watch all the game because Hakeem doesn't guard everyone of them 100% of the possession )when they were against Hakeem defense motor.

First Round - All star Center : Clifford Robinson
RS - 20.1 PPG on 46.1 eFG%
PS - 16.3 PPG on 42.6 eFG%

Hakeem exterminate him both in term of volume and efficiency while being the best offensive player in his team by averaging 34 PPG on 50.5 eFG%

Second Round - Suns play mostly Small rotation player so not really great Center to be against Hakeem : AC.Green + Oliver Miller
AC :
RS - 14.7 PPG on 50.6 eFG%
PS - 12.0 PPG on 55.5 eFG%
BIG O :
RS - 9.2 PPG on 66.1 eFG
PS - 3.6 PPG on 57.9 eFG%

The Suns were running small but escalating the Pace line up with quicker player so Hakeem able to be more dominant on the Offensive end cause there were no player big enough to slow him down. Hakeem outplayed Everyone with scoring average of 28.7 PPG on 56.3 eFG

Third round - ALL NBA PF : K.Malone ( Secondary assignment ) + Regular Center : felton Spencer.
K.Malone
RS: 27.1 PPG on 46.7 eFG%
PS: 26.0 PPG on 43.3 eFG%
Felton
RS: 7.9 PPG on 44.8 eFG%
PS: 7.0 PPG on 33.3 eFG%

This time again Hakeem defense able to affect the Bigmen of the opposite team but the difference is the Jazz also able to hold Hakeem down more than previous round with the Two big player in the paint as Felton + Malone. Hakeem still average 27.8 PPG on 50.0 eFG%

The Final - TOP 5 MVP Center - PATRICK EWING
RS: 24.5 PPG on 49.7 eFG%
PS: 18.9 PPG on 33.6 eFG%

This might be the biggest Victim cause by Hakeem dominance in this run. He kill Patrick Ewing to the point that his scoring number look like a second or third option. While Hakeem is performing like this against Ewing( Knick best defense in the league ) : Hakeem 26.9 PPG on 50.3 eFG%

In conclusion Hakeem ability to hold down opposite team Bigmen with his defense while outperforming the star on offense is something we don't see very often in playoffs history

SHAQUILLE O'NEILL 2000 ( 2001>1998> 1995 = 2002 )

One of the most Dominant Player at the paint/post Area with ever seen. I choose this year cause it was when he bulk up to be more imposing and it the year he put the most effort on both end of the floor

1. Scoring
All time Rim Pressure with his Touch around the paint area combine with his Putback to give many possession a Second Chance to generate point. Elite Post player due to his size + Strength able to get to the position he want to while still have enough finest with his footwork to Shaq direction or spin out of the defense to create seperation for a raise up shot attempt. Elite Lob threat and as Roller ( he doesn't do it enough IMO ) to roll get the ball and finish at the rim even against contest.

2. Playmaker
With his scoring ability with established it will help open up his Playmaking arsenal. With his Dominance as a scorer inside the half court area he able to force defender or defensive system to collapse on him or AT LEAST send help so his man defender does get bullied so that make Shaq have one of the best GRAVITY ever. With his Gravity to attract defensive attention Create enough room and space for the Lakers ( Prerimeter or Cutter ) to operate there offense much easier. Shaq was a capable passer enough to capitalize on his advantage. He can pass out the double quite fast and have good basic fondamentale ( although it too Reactionary and can lead to none creation due to his pass being target to nearest teammates instead of the Most open teammates ).

3. Defense and Rebound
His Defensive and offensive Rebound were great because he was able to Boxout anyone inside to grabe the rebound. Elite interior defender with his presence ( a small touch of Cleaner inside )and Elite Post defender with his length and immovable base due to size+weight. Which were Valuable to an extent in his era. But Shaq weakness on defense is so exploitable.
This statement is from "70sfan" which I totally agree

he had plenty of weaknesses that were exploited back then - even without pace and space (I don't care much about time machine argument). It is not only about his mobility - I knew really well that he wasn't good at guarding space - but also about the basic bigmen fundamentals like positioning, help d awareness, timing in contests and rotations etc.

And this is the observation I made in the #3 peak thread after rewatching numerous game in 2000 playoff run

1. He not really as great as I remember on Help defense when His teammates are in disadvantageous situation or are in a Mismatch. He ball watching too much to the point he doesn't decide to take action or when he does it too late cause he not really fast horizontally. Example - Webber is Posting up a smaller player at the post/near post and Shaq is in paint as a back up defender but he doesn't go up to help on the weak side nor Cutting the driving lane to force Webber to jump shot or Pass. After Webber post up to a advantage position he would spin drive inside for a bucket/ attempt bucket which Shaq is not there to contest or help cut his lane of driving which he should have done ( because he didn't go help to prevent this From happening before Webber come in close ) " this happen 3 TIME IN A ROW"

2. his recovery is a weakness. When he play drop he have a hard time to take action against another threat or when the opposite team play PnP instead of PnR style. He bite easily to fake and isn't able to recover fast enough to go stay with his man. Example - Divac would pump fake which Shaq bite and drive but got his driving lane cut by a Lakers so Divac step back to shot/pass but Shaq isn't close to cover Divac yet ( even with his team help to push Divac out the paint )

3. His lack of Court awareness on defense. His lost his man quite easily and not knowing where they are on court

4. His efforts to contest ( interior is a bit worse than I thought and Prerimeter as Worse as I remember ) - He wouldn't even step out 1 foot to go contest a midrange jumper which Divac was able to use it against Shaq ( if only he was more efficient ). When a Guard drive to the basket he we take too much time to think so they're able to drive pass Shaq for a bucket or Shaq need to foul them from behind ( J.william did this against Shaq numerous time ). His positioning to gap disadvantage in rotation is also slow.

After stating many weakness I wanna show how prolific he was on the Post when Guarding Duncan in 2002 Playoff series when he was matched up against Duncan on Defense

Spoiler:

https://youtu.be/baDGJAebU4w?si=BDps7qFGPliyljgn
Duncan Scoring when Shaq is the primary+secondary defender on him:

P1 - Duncan blowby the prerimeter defender and meet Shaq at the rim. Shaq contest and block Duncan attempt bucket. Duncan retain possession and try another shot which Shaq contest again make Duncan miss. ( 2 contest shot - 0/2 FGA )
P2 - Duncan get a bounce pass at the post area. Shaq in paint but doesn't closeout on Duncan ( lazy pickup ). Duncan still missed ( 0/1 FGA )
P3 - Shaq lazy let Duncan openly cut to baskest for a Putback Dunk ( 1/1 FGA )
P4 - Duncan receive the ball near post/wing. With Shaq face up guard him. Duncan fake many time and drive on Shaq pushing him back for a layup ( 1 contest - 1/1 FGA )
P5 - Duncan get ball on wing pass inside. Shaq doesn't deny Duncan lane who cut and put the shot back in ( 1/1 FGA )
P6 - Duncan post up another player and spin pass him when Shaq came up as help defender to block shot. Duncan get rebound Shaq is the help defender to contest shot for 2 more attempt ( 3 help Contest - 0/3 FGA )
P7 - Duncan get ball in post try to post Shaq up but Shaq doesn't move. Force Duncan to make tough shot and miss ( 1 Contest - 0/1 FGA )
P8 - Duncan have the ball in Wing area with Shaq on him. Duncan see a sizable gap so he pull up midrange ( 1 lazy contest - 1/1 FGA )
P9 - Duncan have ball In paint with Shaq deny position and another laker doubling force Duncan pass ball out.
P10 - Shaq face up guard Duncan at ft line and block the driving lane. Duncan shoot a midrange which Shaq contest ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P11 - Duncan got ball on short corner try to dribble inside with Shaq covering miss a short midrange ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P12 - Duncan have ball in paint with Shaq slowing him down. Then another Lakers come double force Duncan pass.
P13 - Duncan get ball at wing then drive on Shaq but Shaq force him to a guard which able to steal Duncan ball
P14 - in Transition Duncan bring ball up see Shaq leaving too much room at elbow so Duncan pull up midrange ( 1 lazy contest - 1/1 FGA )
P15 - Duncan have ball in post but too slow to make decisions cause Shaq is on him then Kobe come double force Duncan to pass
P16 - Duncan with ball play PnP near the paint then Shaq come up the rim to help contest shot ( 1 help contest - 0/1 FGA )
P17 - Duncan drive to the paint then Shaq come help Contest. Duncan get rebound but Shaq stay tight on him force Duncan TOV with a guard steal. ( 1 Help contest - 0/1 FGA )
P18- Shaq on Duncan offball but Shaq switch to contest another player who fake then pass to Duncan in paint for a shot ( 1/1 FGA )
P 19 - Duncan receive ball in post so Shaq go help as secondary interior defender force
Duncan TOV
P 20 - Duncan get ball in post Shaq try help cut the passing lane but loses in man who Duncan dump the ball to for a lay up.
P21- Duncan with ball on wing with Shaq putting pressure on the ball and force TOV with his hand and strength
P22 - Duncan in post with Shaq Deny entry to the rim. Duncan pump fake many time the dribble inside for a foul.
P23 - Duncan get ball near elbow pump fake then pull up on Shaq who contest shot ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P24 - Duncan attempt drive but Shaq tight coverage. Duncan pass ball out
P25 - Duncan drive by his defender then Shaq come pickup to contest shot at rim ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P26 - Duncan posture Shaq from wing to post Area then spin move rise up for a contested bank shot ( 1 Contest - 1/1 FGA )
P27 - Duncan get ball at up ft line see Shaq a bit too far to close out so he pull up miss shot ( 1 Lazy Contest - 0/1 FGA )
P28 - Duncan post up pump fake which Shaq bite then drive in for a layup but missed ( 0/1 FGA )
P29 - Duncan try to post Shaq in paint area with a soft double on him. Force Duncan TOV
P30 - Duncan face up game on Shaq pump fake fora moment then pull up midrange on Shaq ( 1 Contest - 1/1 FGA )
P31 - Duncan bring ball up then play PnP then pull up off screen which Shaq try to contest but tit was a lob pass.
P32 - Shaq on Duncan in ft line area. Shaq get screen then decide to drop leave Duncan for a midrange Missed.
P33 - Shaq deny Duncan positioning for a moment so a double team come on Duncan but it a foul
P34 - in Transition Duncan get leave wild open at 3 pt line which he make the shot.
P35 - Duncan post up shat to the paint attempt to raise up but Shaq hit ball out his hand for a TOV
P36 - Duncan move off ball to get pass at elbow then drive on Shaq who foul Duncan
P37 - Duncan attempt post the raise up to pass for an assist.
P38 - Duncan get pass at elbow then he drive to meet Shaq contest at rim. Shaq foul Duncan
P39 - Duncan receive ball at wing with Shaq on him. Shaq get screen but still edge to contest the midrange ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P40 - Duncan get ball at wing then he drive thru Shaq nearly a blowby but get foul near paint but a Lakers.
P41 - in Transition Duncan run pass Shaq to the rim and get an alley oop dunk
P42 - Shaq help Deny driving lane of a guard the. Switch on Duncan to contest his drive layup ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P 43 - DUNCAN Post-up Shaq then saw double team coming so Duncan reset. Post-up raise up on Shaq who contest but foul.
P44 - Duncan cannot post up Shaq so he decided to pass but is too slow to deliver and get the ball stole by Kobe who help double
P45 - Duncan get ball short Corner with Shaq on him see Kobe come double but make a bad pass TOV
P46 - Duncan face up game on shaq at post. Then pullups for a bucket ( 1 Lazy contest - 1/1 FGA )
P47 - Duncan go screen PnP but Shaq is guarding with drop coverage. Duncan see space so he pull up on Shaq lazy contest but Miss ( 1 Lazy Contest - 0/1 FGA )
P 48 - Duncan face up on Shaq then drive but Shaq contest shot hit it to Lakers teammates ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P 49 - Duncan face up Shaq. Pump fake which Shaq bite a bit then drive by for layup but Shaq ablz to block from behind ( 1 contest - 0/1 FGA )
P50 - Shaq leaving Duncan offball to go in paint. Duncan get ball at ft line then shot it on Shaq contest ( 1 Lazy Contest - 0/1 FGA )
P51 - Duncan post up Shaq see double coming so he pass out to Prerimeter for an assist
P52 - Duncan go screen for PnP which Shaq is using drop coverage. Duncan get ball then shot but Missed ( 0/1 FGA )
P53 - Shaq overcommitted on help Duncan get ball drive inside Shaq jump contest but Duncan fake then sneak in easy layup ( 1/1 FGA )
P54 - Duncan get ball try a dunk but Shaq help block from behind ( 1 contest - 1/1 FGA )
P55 - Duncan get ball at 3pt line then drive on Shaq but get triple due to shot clock force to pass
P56 - Shaq hand up guard Duncan at ft line but Duncan see opening bounce pass in rim for Assist
P57 - Shaq on Duncan but get screen but Shaq still cover Duncan tight. Duncan try drive lay up but get block by shaq
P58 - Duncan postup drive on Shaq but missed ( 1 Lazy Contest - 0/1 FGA )
P59 - Shaq is ball watching loses Duncan offball who able to get rebound and put back ( 1/1 FGA )
Some of Duncan miss shot could be argue that Shaq didn't contribute to those cause of his lazy contest or Playing drop while Duncan play PnP but I counted it in the total from the video. And not be counted as D-FG in favor of Shaq ( if you wanna have different PoV you need to watch the clip )

Overall
Contest ( primary defender ) - 15
Lazy contest ( primary defender ) - 7
Help Contest ( secondary ) - 5
D-FGA ( both primary and secondary defender )- 33
D- FGM ( both primary and secondary defender ) - 12
D-FG ( both primary and secondary defender ) -> 12/33 or o.364 FG%
In that Series Duncan without Shaq would have been shooting 45.0 FG% on 80 FGA

Overall summarize - Shaq was elite against Duncan in the post and paint area to deny Duncan positioning or driving lane and being physical enough to push Duncan out of his comfort zone. But Shaq also have his weakness which Duncan able to exploit at the prerimeter or when he play off the ball as cutter + PnP.

Shaq lead his team to historical level in the regular season that year which is understandable.

Lakers
REG SZN
RECORD 67- 15 -> 8.41 SRS ( top 1 In league )
Offense Rating of +3.2 rORTG ( Top 5 in league)
Defense Rating of -5.9 rDRTG ( Top 1 in league )

Shaq had On/off Swing of +10.8 ( which mostly due to offense cause he was +9.2 Offensive swing
While Shaq was Averaging ( Inflation adjusted per 75 ):
31.4 PPG / 14.4 RPG / 4.0 APG with 3.7 Stocks 2.9 TOV on 57.8 TS% ( +5.5 rTS )

But the Lakers defense were collapsing in playoffs while the offense were uplifted

Shaq on court in PLAYOFF
+ 10.6 rORTG adj. And -0.5 rDRTG adj.
While Averaging ( IA/75 ):
31.0 PPG / 15.6 RPG / 3.1 APG with 2.9 Stocks 2.4 TOV on 55.6 TS% ( +4.8 rts Adj. Against -2.4 rDRTG team )

First Round against Sacramento Kings ( Top 11 offense \ Top 10 defense )
He lead +13.2 rORTG adj. And -4.6 rDRTG adj.

Second Round against Phoenix Suns ( Top 16 offense \ top 3 Defense )
He lead +10.5 rORTg adj. And -3.8 rDRTG adj

Third Round against Portland Blazers ( Top 4 offense / Top 5 Defense )
He lead +7.8 rORTG adj And -0.9 rDRTG adj

Final against Indiana Pacers ( Top 1 offense/ Top 13 Defense )
He lead +11.7 rORGT adj. And +5.5 rDRTG adj. ( Negative defense )

He lead All time offense against Great defensive team this year


WILT CHAMBERLAIN 1967 ( = 1964 > 1962 )
I know that Wilt have elite argument and Reasoning to be higher than some of my pick which I can totally see by his Impact and skillsets. But I need to believe it too.
So I took my time before voting because I was trying to watch Enough wilt film to convince myself he could be higher ( than Shaq or Hakeem ) but with the lack of film and full footage really can't persuade me to put him above Shaq.

[rk2023]

Ending my PC Board sabbatical to participate in the project. Now that the first three are done -

4. 1961-62 Bill Russell (>1965)

The goat defender, bar none. Via tracking and past analysis from prior projects (thanks Doc, 70sfan, drza), it's clear to see Russell's defense was something that was era-proof and (to a large extent) by virtue of his monster athleticism and intelligence. I am unsure the accuracy of BBR's ORTG/DRTG estimates from back then, but what is available tells that the Celtics were able to put together flawed offensive casts while still reaching impressive team heights with Russell's defensive safety net.

Even with marginal scoring efficiency, Russell this season had 19/23.6/4.5 on 49%TS and 22/26/5 on 52%TS in the playoffs - while being by far the best big-man passer and connector in the league. I think this slight positive impact and "plug and play" game offensively along with the defensive impact makes Russell a highly scalable piece, and one who can be a GOAT-level floor & ceiling raiser both. For his era, I think the straight forwardness and dominant SRS results from having Russell as THE trump card gives him an edge over my next two votes. Which leads me to:

5. 1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon (>1993)

All things considered, Hakeem is the best "two-way player" in NBA history as far as I'm concerned. He is the best defender since Russell, and skilled / resilient enough offensively to be a legit anchor (e.g. 29/11/4.3/1.7/4.0 on 56.8% TS in the 1994 playoffs). While I think the shot diet not being too conducive to efficiency and being more of a tunnel-visioned, reactive passer keeps him below the best offensive big-men to play, he's still more than good enough to be an offensive anchor on a title team - while also being a one man wrecking crew defensively. Across each of all the 4 series Houston won, they had at least one of a very good team offensive or defensive rating. Hakeem's production also was generally resilient across each team faced (not to mention the high SRS difficulty).

6. 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal (> 2001)

Most dominant ever and great case for the best paint / rim scorer ever. With good role players and Kobe being far more of robin this season, Shaq's safety net and floor as a scorer (29.7 on +5 rTS), paint gravity and being a hack-a-Shaq FT magnet, and good turnover economy (19 AST% vs 10 TOV%) made him a centerpiece of a T5 RS offense and 67 win, 8 SRS mark with a team that didn't have too much business getting there. This was also Shaq's best defensive season , albeit still had some problems that could be exploited more in a playoff setting. From a team offense and production angle, Shaq was a resilient playoff performer (30.7/15.4/3.1/.6/2.4 on 56% TS) for a team that crumbled without him. Why I give Hakeem the slight edge is due to Shaq's own FT woes capping his ceiling as a scorer and lead option and some of the motor and agility concerns on defense. While Shaq may have the higher ceiling, I prefer Hakeem's for a more sustainable, tried and tested centerpiece.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

As to the comparative part of this process, I am not going to lean too hard against Duncan, because while I think Hakeem had a higher ceiling as both a defender and scorer and proved himself more capable of overcoming adversity, there is plausible merit to the characterisation of peak Duncan as a similar calibre player. For my standards I feel that leans a little too heavily on the idea that 2002/03 was a true spike for him, but coupled with his superior positional versatility (i.e. it is more intuitive that peak Duncan could replicate Hakeem’s success as a centre than that peak Hakeem could replicate Duncan’s success playing next to Robinson and other centres), any arguments I could make against him feel too eye-test dependent, and Hakeem being more aesthetically dynamic does not mean he was inherently better. I am also not going to lean too hard against Russell, it because there it is a matter of how much one weighs Russell being a more significant era standout. But for the rest?

I do agree with Hakeem over Duncan, because I do think Hakeem had a higher ceiling as a scorer. Looking at the 94 playoffs and the 03 playoffs, Hakeem averaged 35.9pp100 on +4.0 rts(relative to RS league average), while Duncan averaged 30.6pp100 on +4.5rTS. That's over a 5 point volume gap with only a half point drop in relative efficiency.

I'd also mention the notion that Hakeem was the focal point of an offense that was maybe a bit ahead of its time - nearly a decade earlier than Duncan's run - in that they were making use of three point shooting from Mad Max/Horry/Smith/Cassell/Elie via opportunities created from Hakeem's gravity, sort of like the 2009 Magic(not quite as much volume of attempts, but it was 1994).

And you say it's too eye-test dependent, but I still think it's a factor. Even though their numbers weren't that far apart(especially in the RS), Hakeem just looks like a more polished scorer, a more versatile one, who perhaps could score in more different ways than Duncan could. He was always praised for the footwork. The Dream Shake and what have you.

When the margins are this thin, such things can make a difference.

Shaq feels like the most pertinent point of comparison among that list, so I will direct my focus to him.

Outside of free throw shooting, I have no strong criticisms of Shaq or Wilt in the playoffs. However, perhaps tied to the principle of missed free throws (which by my count cost Wilt titles in 1965, 1968, and 1969), there is some element of “missed opportunities” in their playoff histories. For me, Shaq’s defensive weaknesses made for a more limiting element in the postseason than Hakeem’s comparatively mediocre passing vision. I think OldSchool pointed out his impressive translation on three separate teams (also applicable to Wilt), which is a definite positive but is somewhat undercut by those teams being consistently good rosters tied to an all-time 2-guard. This is not prohibitive — Kareem famously only ever won with “the two best point guards ever” — but it does take away most of the adversity aspect. I struggle to envision players exceeding or even matching Hakeem’s results in his place, whereas I can more easily envision Hakeem matching or possibly even exceeding the success of others in their place; such is the benefit of regularly exceeding the realistic playoff expectations for your teams.

Where we disagree is that I think would still take Shaq over both Hakeem and Duncan.

Since you referenced me here, I'll say this: it's not just the success he had with three teams, it's that he almost immediately transformed each one into at minimum a borderline-contender upon his arrival. The Magic were a lotto team and he single-handedly spear-headed a 20 win, 7.87 SRS turnaround(in a season when Penny wasn't there yet). The Lakers were a regular season paper tiger type team before his arrival and he eventually led them to a threepeat(and I would argue for that first title in 2000, Kobe wasn't all the way Kobe yet). In Miami, he was at the helm of a 17-win, 5.89 SRS turnaround(and regardless of Wade being the #1 in 2006, in 2005 Shaq was seen as the one driving the turnaround).

I don't know how relevant this is in a peak context, but it does illustrate that he consistently had enormous impact everywhere he went.

Specifically regarding peak though, I'll say the following things:

1. It is suggested that whatever defensive impact Shaq may have in 2000 was something of a fluke. But I could look at the two years suggested as Duncan's peak - 2002 and 2003 - and observe that they are two of the only four seasons - in a nineteen season career - in which Duncan broke 100 TS Add. I could suggest that the scorer Duncan was in 2002 and 2003 is not reflective of the scorer he was for most of his career, in the same way that I could suggest that defensive impact Shaq might've had in 2000 is not reflective of the defensive impact he had for most of his career.

2. More importantly, and I know eye tests are shunned here, I just believe Shaq was so physically overpowering that he was warping the opposing defense(against most teams, perhaps not against the Spurs) to an extent the others were not.

F4p made the point above that Shaq's numbers in 2000 or 2001 are not so removed from his numbers in 1995, and that's true, but what it misses is that Shaq was 40 pounds heavier in 2000(and this is before he put on ANOTHER 40 pounds in 2002 after his injury, when he went into his 'almost 400 pound' phase). I think this makes 2000 Shaq a different, more dominant player than 1995 or 1996 Shaq. In the 1996 ECF, much was made of Rodman guarding Shaq. Shaq's numbers were not really out of his norm in that series, and Rodman's defense on him has probably been overstated, but the point was that Rodman could do a passable enough job guarding 1996 Shaq one-on-one that the Bulls didn't have to double so much on him. I don't think this would have worked in 2000 when Shaq was so much bigger.

Teams had big stiffs in those peak Shaq years whose sole job in Laker games was to take fouls while attempting to guard Shaq. After his 2000 and 2001 peak seasons, the league legalized zone defense in large part to make it easier for teams to throw two and three guys at him, and they would literally hack at him to try to stop him from scoring - he often complained about the hacking. Frequently in the playoffs teams would would resort to the hack-a-Shaq FT strategy because it was the only way they could hope to stop him from scoring. I still have never seen anyone physically dominate the game the way Shaq did in those years.

I know most of you guys don't see it this way, and I know this isn't a very scientific or data-driven argument I'm making here. But I haven't yet been convinced.

I do go back and forth about whether it should be 2000 or 2001 Shaq, on whether I value the 2000 regular season or the 2001 playoffs more.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Also, anyone claiming to be an era-relativist - and if you're voting for Russell, I have to think you're an era-relativist - should be considering Mikan at this point.

A few different years you could identify as his peak, but let's take 1950-51 for example. The guy averaged 28.4ppg/14.1rpg on +8.1 rTS while anchoring the league's #1 defense. They didn't win the title that year, but either of the previous two seasons likely yielded the same kind of results, it's just we don't have rpg and defensive ratings for 1950 or 1949.

Also, you may think there were only eight teams, but in the early 50s there were a bunch of teams that eventually folded that don't exist anymore, so there were actually 17 teams in 1949-50(down to 11 in 1950-51).

If you're not an era-relativist, then you obviously won't consider him. But I don't see how, in an era-relative context, you can't be thinking about him, if not now, very soon.

[70sFan]

The direct match up numbers you provided itt seem to show Shaq getting the better of Duncan, contrary to your main point.

The number I provide shows that Duncan, not Rose, was Shaq's main defender, while Shaq defended Duncan only in short periods. Do you want to acknowledge that?

I said Shaq "looked like the more dominant force in 02 playoffs." You decided to hyper-focus on their h2h which still doesn't scream Duncan won as much as he was his team's focal point and Shaq wasn't, and he did pretty well vs. Samaki Walker. Shaq was also the best player in the conference finals and finals fwiw. Seems like a reasonable starting point to hint that he "looked like" the best player in the playoffs.

We've seen Duncan against the Nets the year after and he looked just as spectacular as Shaq. I also have very little doubts that Duncan would produce offensively just fine against the Kings, while not being torched on every P&R play.

Shaq was great in 2002 playoffs, but just because his team advanced further with him playing well below his standards, doesn't mean he's a better player than Duncan that year.

And yes, given the huge difference between 00 and 02 Shaq, I'd say that there's pretty reasonable grounds to say that 00 Shaq was better than 02 Duncan.

Yeah, but your whole premise that Shaq was better than Duncan in 2002, or at least it is close. When someone disagrees with you, you have to back it up with some evidences, not ignore the objections.

I also wonder what makes "huge difference" between 2000 and 2002 Shaq to you. I don't disagree, but I want to see the reasoning.

[Top10alltime]

VOTING POST

1. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
2. 1967 Wilt Chamberlain
3. 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon

Peak Shaq vs. peak Wilt is a tough choice. Shaq has stronger offensive impact signals than Wilt generally speaking and the gap in scoring is quite noticeable. Wilt could definitely score but his relatively low volume against both Russell and Thurmond in the playoffs is what hurts him here. Both guys are also poor free throw shooters but Wilt is still considerably worse (!). On the other hand, I give Wilt a pretty large edge on defense. And just about every aspect too: better shotblocker, much better lateral movement, better post defender, better instincts, better stamina. It's tough but I go with Shaq by a hair typically just because I see his weaknesses as less pronounced than Wilt's. Take away Wilt's easy baskets and put him on the foul line every time he has a deep catch and you might neutralize him. Peak Shaq was significantly more difficult to neutralize and I think Wilt's defensive edge almost overcomes that but not quite. Push comes to shove, I just think 2000 Shaq is a bigger problem to deal with for the opposing team than 1967 Wilt. And some of it is just Shaq's aggression. It may also be a stylistic difference but for peaks, I prefer players who are #1 options on offense. Wilt was actually #2 to Hal Greer and unfair or not he never led a team to a title as the #1 option. I was thinking of 1964 Wilt over 1967 Wilt but again, his play against Russell was underwhelming and the Warriors were actually a rather poor team that only made the Finals due to being in a weak conference especially with Lakers derailed by West's injury. That year 1964 was just not successful from a team perspective which I don't really fault Wilt for but I also can't give him credit for it.

Hakeem and Wilt are pretty much neck and neck. I struggle with the order of those two even more than with Shaq and Wilt. When it comes down to it, I think they are even in the playoffs (no problem even saying Hakeem a bit better) but Wilt is the much better regular season player and when it's that close, regular season can still put Wilt over the edge.

Nominate: Bill Russell - Though I believe Bill is the GOAT (he and MJ in their own GOAT tier) I don't think he had any singular season as his peak. 1964 just too poor offensively in the playoffs. 1962 team defense too poor. I feel like he's a guy who had like 10 straight all-time seasons but not a single GOAT-level season. For example I'd comfortably take 1967 (and 1964) Wilt over any version of Russell but Russ probably has 10 of their top 15 seasons.

Why are we considering Bill Russell before putting Tim Duncan here? Also I believe his peak will be 1963-64, since he is the defensive guy.

[Top10alltime]

Before I hop into my list, I will just say watching Shaq outside the finals has gotten me to be lower on Shaq overall. Now my ballot:

3. 1963-64 Wilt (61-62, 66-67, 67-68)

Most people consider 66-67 to be Wilt's peak, but for me, Wilt didn't really stand out enough as a playmaker or on defence enough to beat out this iteration of Wilt. (Although, I will say that 67 Wilt has a case). There are two things for me taking him over 67..

-> Wilt, at least by the numbers, was a better defender. He also seemed to be a better interior defender, and had better rim deterrence, by the film that is available. He wasn't all that active though, and a worse defender in transition (due to spending so many minutes on the court), and his effectiveness guarding perimeter seemed to stay mostly the same..

-> Wilt was better scorer off of offensive rebounding (he was still GOAT lvl at that in 67), and great interior scorer, with ATG rim pressure. He also had a much worse team than in 67 Sixers, so it was much harder to lift his team to the offensive heights when he had terrible support in 64 Warriors

As a basketball player, Wilt looks like better defensive player on film and with the stats, also this is a elite defensive season at worst, sub GOAT defensive season to me, since rim protection was very valued in 60s and that led to anchoring a -6 defence (he still had good help in Thurmond, but Thurmond was a rookie and hadn't emerged). His low fouling might be attributed to him having little discipline, but I have yet to see proof of this.

Wilt had ATG scoring season (expected from a top 10-15 scorer in history), averaging insane amount of point for a post big, on high efficiency: (28.0 IA pts/75 on +5.2 rTS), one of his greatest scoring seasons ever. This is on top of the incredible gravity he had, the rim pressure he had, along with hitting fadeaways at a reasonable clip, for bigs:

Prime games (1962-68):

All shots: 157/255 FGA (61.6 FG%)

All fadeaways: 50/109 FGA (45.9 FG%)
From left block: 37/78 FGA (47.4 FG%)
From right block: 6/15 FGA (40.0 FG%)
Non-post fadeaways: 7/16 FGA (43.8 FG%)

All finger rolls: 17/30 FGA (56.7 FG%)
From left block: 5/12 FGA (41.7 FG%)
From right block: 9/14 FGA (64.3 FG%)
Non-post finger rolls: 3/4 FGA (75.0 FG%)

As a playmaker, he exposed double-teams like in 1966-67 on the ball, he could hit his open man. Off-ball, he provided value as playmaker, using his gravity to leave open teammates for shots.

4. 2002-03 Duncan (Will fill in later)

5. 1992-93 Hakeem (Will fill in later)

6. 1999-00 Shaq (Will fill in later)

[Joao Saraiva]

Also, anyone claiming to be an era-relativist - and if you're voting for Russell, I have to think you're an era-relativist - should be considering Mikan at this point.

A few different years you could identify as his peak, but let's take 1950-51 for example. The guy averaged 28.4ppg/14.1rpg on +8.1 rTS while anchoring the league's #1 defense. They didn't win the title that year, but either of the previous two seasons likely yielded the same kind of results, it's just we don't have rpg and defensive ratings for 1950 or 1949.

Also, you may think there were only eight teams, but in the early 50s there were a bunch of teams that eventually folded that don't exist anymore, so there were actually 17 teams in 1949-50(down to 11 in 1950-51).

If you're not an era-relativist, then you obviously won't consider him. But I don't see how, in an era-relative context, you can't be thinking about him, if not now, very soon.

There can be some grey area in there, right? Like, believing to evolution from Mikan's era to Wilt and Russell was gigantic. And the development is usually that way in the begining, then it eventually slows down.

Or maybe people are just more educated on the Russell/Wilt era and disregard Mikan's, Idk.

I wouldn't object to Mikan getting traction, but if it's a bit hard for me to see videos from pre-80s basketball games I can only imagine what that type of game would look like.

I try to think that those players would be trained a lot different today and analyze given the context, but I think we all can see basketball now is a completely diferent sport, but also can't disregard the ones who came before.

[70sFan]

...

Could you expand your views on the 1964 vs 1967 defensive comparison a little more?


Also, not related to your post Top10alltime, but I wonder if people don't focus too much on Celtics DRtg estimation to take 1964 Russell over all the other seasons. I mean, is there any reason to believe that Russell was substantially better defensively that year over 1962, 1963 or 1965?

[Top10alltime]

...

Could you expand your views on the 1964 vs 1967 defensive comparison a little more?


Also, not related to your post Top10alltime, but I wonder if people don't focus too much on Celtics DRtg estimation to take 1964 Russell over all the other seasons. I mean, is there any reason to believe that Russell was substantially better defensively that year over 1962, 1963 or 1965?

I don't have enough film to draw any conclusions about their defensive game difference from season to season. Its enough to show how they were defensively in those seasons, but not enough to really show differences from season to season.

[Elpolo_14]

Also, anyone claiming to be an era-relativist - and if you're voting for Russell, I have to think you're an era-relativist - should be considering Mikan at this point.

Personally I try to be the most Era - relative as much as possible ( even tho I believe the more we advance in time stuff like players/scheme/coaching/system/training/nutrition/rest/accessory All get Significantly better with time ) by trying to find on how people from the good old day were thinking of set player and by searching about there Impact on the Game ( on court ) but most importantly is by Watching the player on internet. ( The last one get harder when we go further back in years )

The lack of quality footage really hold me back from anything pre 1960s. So I limit my era relativeness to post 1955.

Also the most important thing is Anything Pre shot clock era is absolute Lankie for me. It just pick up ball you play in the park.
COINCIDENTALLY this Dude Suddenly wanna spend sometime with his family just before the shot clock rule get établish ( that weird ) I think he fear that he gonna get COOK and EXPOSE by this rules so much he fake a retirement. Then he comback the year later ( 1956 ) was absolutely Potatoes Chip and decide to retire for good.

[metta-tonne]

Like I said before…this isn't going to be the most old person friendly list. I think newer players are better

Curry - 2016
2017, 2015, 2022
completely changed the game. goat offense. Letting him shoot isn’t a deal you should take. Underrated handles and a talented passer too. Most skilled player ever?

Giannis - 2021
2019, 2020, 2022
Two-way monster. Best defender and can score 30. You should take that deal. Won a ring with kris middleton and jrue bledsoe. Kris middleton and Jrue Bledsoe. 40 points and amazing defense in the finals

Duncan - 2002
1989, 1991

Again, my real pick is Jokic but I guess of the guys here I’ll take Sir Fundemental. 2003 has the championship but he was probably better in 2002 to be honest. More points and better efficiency. Pretty dominant vs the Lakers with 30/6/17 while doing an amazing job vs Shaq. He shot alot better in 2003 vs the the same team but I think the deal there is the Lakers/Shaq not being that good anymore instead of Duncan actually improving.

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

1. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
2. 1967 Wilt Chamberlain
3. 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon

Peak Shaq vs. peak Wilt is a tough choice. Shaq has stronger offensive impact signals than Wilt generally speaking and the gap in scoring is quite noticeable. Wilt could definitely score but his relatively low volume against both Russell and Thurmond in the playoffs is what hurts him here. Both guys are also poor free throw shooters but Wilt is still considerably worse (!). On the other hand, I give Wilt a pretty large edge on defense. And just about every aspect too: better shotblocker, much better lateral movement, better post defender, better instincts, better stamina. It's tough but I go with Shaq by a hair typically just because I see his weaknesses as less pronounced than Wilt's. Take away Wilt's easy baskets and put him on the foul line every time he has a deep catch and you might neutralize him. Peak Shaq was significantly more difficult to neutralize and I think Wilt's defensive edge almost overcomes that but not quite. Push comes to shove, I just think 2000 Shaq is a bigger problem to deal with for the opposing team than 1967 Wilt. And some of it is just Shaq's aggression. It may also be a stylistic difference but for peaks, I prefer players who are #1 options on offense. Wilt was actually #2 to Hal Greer and unfair or not he never led a team to a title as the #1 option. I was thinking of 1964 Wilt over 1967 Wilt but again, his play against Russell was underwhelming and the Warriors were actually a rather poor team that only made the Finals due to being in a weak conference especially with Lakers derailed by West's injury. That year 1964 was just not successful from a team perspective which I don't really fault Wilt for but I also can't give him credit for it.

Hakeem and Wilt are pretty much neck and neck. I struggle with the order of those two even more than with Shaq and Wilt. When it comes down to it, I think they are even in the playoffs (no problem even saying Hakeem a bit better) but Wilt is the much better regular season player and when it's that close, regular season can still put Wilt over the edge.

Nominate: Bill Russell - Though I believe Bill is the GOAT (he and MJ in their own GOAT tier) I don't think he had any singular season as his peak. 1964 just too poor offensively in the playoffs. 1962 team defense too poor. I feel like he's a guy who had like 10 straight all-time seasons but not a single GOAT-level season. For example I'd comfortably take 1967 (and 1964) Wilt over any version of Russell but Russ probably has 10 of their top 15 seasons.

Why are we considering Bill Russell before putting Tim Duncan here? Also I believe his peak will be 1963-64, since he is the defensive guy.

Duncan is up there too but push comes to shove, I'd go with Russell. And no it wouldn't be 1964. That year he was utterly horrible offensively in the playoffs. More Ben Wallace than Tim Duncan if you catch my drift. I'd go with 1962 as Russell's peak although Boston's playoff defense was meh. His peak isn't that well defined which is why he suffers in projects like these. He never put a perfect GOAT year together although he had like ten all-time years.

[BusywithBball]

Tim Duncan. On the analyse sent his defense over Kareem and Shaq looks incredible. I struggle to imagine Bill’s defense as so good to replace Duncan’s great scoring. So I will vote Duncan First. Year 2003.

To make clear what makes me change I add web link:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2469052&start=80

Bill Russell Second. Year 1962
Ultimate winner and greatest defender. I think he can fall no further and I wonder if I respect him enough.

Wilt Chamberlain was tremendous talent with unreal numbers and records. He could lead the league in assist or field goal percentage and also play great defense. He could lead the league in rebounds and also lead the league in scoring. He was a statistical marvel the likes of never seen since. He has just criticism for failures but for one year he led a great team and soundly crushed his great rival while being great two-way. I cannot put him above someone who wins nearly always but he was talent like no other and in the year he leads one of the greatest teams I will rank highly. Wilt Chaimberlain Third. Year 1967.

I am not sure on Shaq or Hakeem after but I listen to what others say. I understand people watching now aren’t so impressed but it must be said at time Shaq was considered so much better than anyone else.

[Top10alltime]

VOTING POST

1. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
2. 1967 Wilt Chamberlain
3. 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon

Peak Shaq vs. peak Wilt is a tough choice. Shaq has stronger offensive impact signals than Wilt generally speaking and the gap in scoring is quite noticeable. Wilt could definitely score but his relatively low volume against both Russell and Thurmond in the playoffs is what hurts him here. Both guys are also poor free throw shooters but Wilt is still considerably worse (!). On the other hand, I give Wilt a pretty large edge on defense. And just about every aspect too: better shotblocker, much better lateral movement, better post defender, better instincts, better stamina. It's tough but I go with Shaq by a hair typically just because I see his weaknesses as less pronounced than Wilt's. Take away Wilt's easy baskets and put him on the foul line every time he has a deep catch and you might neutralize him. Peak Shaq was significantly more difficult to neutralize and I think Wilt's defensive edge almost overcomes that but not quite. Push comes to shove, I just think 2000 Shaq is a bigger problem to deal with for the opposing team than 1967 Wilt. And some of it is just Shaq's aggression. It may also be a stylistic difference but for peaks, I prefer players who are #1 options on offense. Wilt was actually #2 to Hal Greer and unfair or not he never led a team to a title as the #1 option. I was thinking of 1964 Wilt over 1967 Wilt but again, his play against Russell was underwhelming and the Warriors were actually a rather poor team that only made the Finals due to being in a weak conference especially with Lakers derailed by West's injury. That year 1964 was just not successful from a team perspective which I don't really fault Wilt for but I also can't give him credit for it.

Hakeem and Wilt are pretty much neck and neck. I struggle with the order of those two even more than with Shaq and Wilt. When it comes down to it, I think they are even in the playoffs (no problem even saying Hakeem a bit better) but Wilt is the much better regular season player and when it's that close, regular season can still put Wilt over the edge.

Nominate: Bill Russell - Though I believe Bill is the GOAT (he and MJ in their own GOAT tier) I don't think he had any singular season as his peak. 1964 just too poor offensively in the playoffs. 1962 team defense too poor. I feel like he's a guy who had like 10 straight all-time seasons but not a single GOAT-level season. For example I'd comfortably take 1967 (and 1964) Wilt over any version of Russell but Russ probably has 10 of their top 15 seasons.

Why are we considering Bill Russell before putting Tim Duncan here? Also I believe his peak will be 1963-64, since he is the defensive guy.

Duncan is up there too but push comes to shove, I'd go with Russell. And no it wouldn't be 1964. That year he was utterly horrible offensively in the playoffs. More Ben Wallace than Tim Duncan if you catch my drift. I'd go with 1962 as Russell's peak although Boston's playoff defense was meh. His peak isn't that well defined which is why he suffers in projects like these. He never put a perfect GOAT year together although he had like ten all-time years.

But why is Bill Russell over peak TD? Peak TD although not at Bill's level he is still a GOAT lvl defensive player and an elite offensive player with his sustainable post scoring and good playmaking. Bill was never an elite offensive player at any point in his career.

Also, what difference does 64 Bill Russell and his seasons like 62,63,65,66 have offensively? I don't see it he seemed like the same player to me.
And why would you use 62 Bill Russell as his peak? Why is it over TD's peak 03?

And I totally get what you mean about him not putting a GOAT lvl year. Bro was consistent year to year putting arguably the GOAT prime (not career tho), that pushed him in near GOAT convo and is a top 4 player ever to me.

[Cavsfansince84]

Also, anyone claiming to be an era-relativist - and if you're voting for Russell, I have to think you're an era-relativist - should be considering Mikan at this point.

A few different years you could identify as his peak, but let's take 1950-51 for example. The guy averaged 28.4ppg/14.1rpg on +8.1 rTS while anchoring the league's #1 defense. They didn't win the title that year, but either of the previous two seasons likely yielded the same kind of results, it's just we don't have rpg and defensive ratings for 1950 or 1949.

Also, you may think there were only eight teams, but in the early 50s there were a bunch of teams that eventually folded that don't exist anymore, so there were actually 17 teams in 1949-50(down to 11 in 1950-51).

If you're not an era-relativist, then you obviously won't consider him. But I don't see how, in an era-relative context, you can't be thinking about him, if not now, very soon.

I don't think era relativism has to work that way. Era relativism can also include factors such as era strength/talent level and other things. It's perfectly fair imo to be able to say that Russell's dominance in the 60's is superior to Mikan's in the early 50's for a number of different reasons though having said that, I'd still have Mikan's peak in like my top 10-15. The main thing I argue against when using era relativism is the whole 'how good would player x or y be in today's game.'

[VanWest82]

The direct match up numbers you provided itt seem to show Shaq getting the better of Duncan, contrary to your main point.

The number I provide shows that Duncan, not Rose, was Shaq's main defender, while Shaq defended Duncan only in short periods. Do you want to acknowledge that?

Except, those numbers don't show that. They show shots, assists, turnovers when they guarded each other. Did you also track possessions? If so, that would give us a better idea as at least we could do some rough calculations, or if you tracked all the possessions we'd know for sure. I recall Rose guarded Shaq quite a bit and so did Robinson in the games he played. Duncan did too, and I'll take your word that he did so more than in the reverse (except game 5). But in the possessions you did list, it looks like Shaq did better vs. Duncan than Duncan did vs. Shaq.

I said Shaq "looked like the more dominant force in 02 playoffs." You decided to hyper-focus on their h2h which still doesn't scream Duncan won as much as he was his team's focal point and Shaq wasn't, and he did pretty well vs. Samaki Walker. Shaq was also the best player in the conference finals and finals fwiw. Seems like a reasonable starting point to hint that he "looked like" the best player in the playoffs.

We've seen Duncan against the Nets the year after and he looked just as spectacular as Shaq. I also have very little doubts that Duncan would produce offensively just fine against the Kings, while not being torched on every P&R play.

Shaq was great in 2002 playoffs, but just because his team advanced further with him playing well below his standards, doesn't mean he's a better player than Duncan that year.

I didn't say he was a better player that year, just that he looked more dominant in the playoffs (i.e. relevant only because this is a peaks thread). Duncan may have looked just as good vs. Nets and and Kings or he may not have. Perhaps he gassed himself out vs. Lakers. We'll never know.

And yes, given the huge difference between 00 and 02 Shaq, I'd say that there's pretty reasonable grounds to say that 00 Shaq was better than 02 Duncan.

Yeah, but your whole premise that Shaq was better than Duncan in 2002, or at least it is close. When someone disagrees with you, you have to back it up with some evidences, not ignore the objections.

I also wonder what makes "huge difference" between 2000 and 2002 Shaq to you. I don't disagree, but I want to see the reasoning.

I'm not ignoring you. I even said that I'd be open to reconsider my statement about Shaq looking most dominant in 02 playoffs. The case that Duncan outplayed Shaq h2h is a strong one. Shaq was also injured and Lakers featured Kobe > Shaq in that series as they did the year before and after. They switched in the following two rounds, suggesting that perhaps Phil was just saving Shaq, and that strategy seemed to work btw.

RE 00 Shaq >> 02 Shaq:

1. 50 lbs
2. Shaq wasn't dealing with numerous debilitating injuries in 2000 playoffs; see games played, surgery after the season, etc.
3. DPOY voting (#2 overall in 2000 vs. not a finalist in 2002); eye test alone 2000 Shaq was a vastly superior defender if you value being able to move.
4. contest vs. Spurs in outside years. Although they didn't meet in 2000, Lakers and Spurs did square off in 2001 and 2003 (where Shaq was arguably even more diminished), and Shaq did much better vs. Spurs both of those years despite Robinson playing a larger role, suggesting injury/role likely played a big factor. Even in 02, Spurs best defense vs. Shaq was arguably Rose on Shaq with Duncan helping. Part of the reason I keep bringing up Rose is because he did a decent job despite giving up so much size. I feel like that's getting lost here. Surely you must have seen that having re-watched the series.

In any event, it sounds like you agree with me at least on the 00 >> 02 Shaq point, and I'd say we have more than enough evidence that the delta there is > than whatever 02 TD > 02 Shaq delta, certainly in the playoffs, though again I'd argue the entire seasons as well.

[One_and_Done]

Others would say that Shaq looked better in those other series precisely because he was being guarded by washed up D.Rob and not Duncan.

NB: that 2000 DPOY voting for Shaq was utterly absurd, and I say that as someone whose #2 vote is for 00 Shaq.

[AEnigma]

In any event, it sounds like you agree with me at least on the 00 >> 02 Shaq point, and I'd say we have more than enough evidence that the delta there is > than whatever 02 TD > 02 Shaq delta, certainly in the playoffs, though again I'd argue the entire seasons as well.

What “evidence”? I do not think the “evidence” supports that at all.