Has Kobe surpassed Hakeem?

[mysticbb]

Only Nowitzki scored a lot but Garnett wasn't guarding him as Sanders was using him at the top of the key in his zone defense.

Well, Garnett also didn't look good in those possessions he defended Nowitzki 1on1. Nowitzki took shots over Garnett, drove by him or Garnett lost Nowitzki on the perimeter. Garnett was torched by Nowitzki in that series, also a reason why Sanders tried with zone against the Mavs.

The individual defensive impact is in fact better measured by defensive adjusted +/-. And Garnett's numbers are looking really good. Also the overall adjusted +/- is a great tool for evaluation a player's impact. And it is not like Garnett's APM contradicts his boxscore numbers. But well, I most likely don't need to tell you that.

[bastillon]

Plus in the playoffs who has he really had to stop? Raja Bell? he's faced manu in the playoffs and they had some pretty good duels, but it wasn't like Kobe was a seive out there. The '08 playoffs where he had to pick his poison between Pierce or Allen? Pierce had 1 monster game out of 6 between the two of them. i can live with that. even drexler hung two 30pt games on MJ in the 1992 finals. good players score. it happens. no wing player will ever be good enough to score 30+/game AND hold an opposing all-star to below 20ppg for an entire series. with all the picks, screens, jumpshot threat, it's exponentially harder for a perimeter player than for a post player especially now when you can barely touch the man you're guarding without getting whistled.

hmm, let's see:

Code: Select all

       year   PPG   TS%   APG   TOV
Penny   00   21.4  0.57   5.6   2.2
Reggie  00   24.3  0.59   3.7   1.3
AI      01   35.6  0.49   3.8   2.4
Bibby   02   22.7  0.53   4.4   2.4
Kidd    02   20.8  0.49   9.8   3.0
Wally   03   14.5  0.59   2.2   3.0
Manu    03   11.7  0.66   2.5   1.5
Francis 04   19.2  0.55   7.6   4.2
Manu    04   14.7  0.59   3.7   1.8
Spree   04   20.8  0.51   5.0   2.3
Wally   04   14.8  0.55   2.2   2.8
Rip     04   21.4  0.50   4.0   4.6
Nash    06   22.1  0.63   9.6   3.9
Nash    07   16.0  0.54  14.0   4.2
Pierce  08   21.8  0.59   6.3   3.7
Ray     08   20.3  0.71   2.5   1.8
Billups 09   18.2  0.58   6.0   2.3

he could've stopped these guys. he did not.

[Bruh Man]

Plus in the playoffs who has he really had to stop? Raja Bell? he's faced manu in the playoffs and they had some pretty good duels, but it wasn't like Kobe was a seive out there. The '08 playoffs where he had to pick his poison between Pierce or Allen? Pierce had 1 monster game out of 6 between the two of them. i can live with that. even drexler hung two 30pt games on MJ in the 1992 finals. good players score. it happens. no wing player will ever be good enough to score 30+/game AND hold an opposing all-star to below 20ppg for an entire series. with all the picks, screens, jumpshot threat, it's exponentially harder for a perimeter player than for a post player especially now when you can barely touch the man you're guarding without getting whistled.

hmm, let's see:

Code: Select all

       year   PPG   TS%   APG   TOV
Penny   00   21.4  0.57   5.6   2.2
Reggie  00   24.3  0.59   3.7   1.3
AI      01   35.6  0.49   3.8   2.4
Bibby   02   22.7  0.53   4.4   2.4
Kidd    02   20.8  0.49   9.8   3.0
Wally   03   14.5  0.59   2.2   3.0
Manu    03   11.7  0.66   2.5   1.5
Francis 04   19.2  0.55   7.6   4.2
Manu    04   14.7  0.59   3.7   1.8
Spree   04   20.8  0.51   5.0   2.3
Wally   04   14.8  0.55   2.2   2.8
Rip     04   21.4  0.50   4.0   4.6
Nash    06   22.1  0.63   9.6   3.9
Nash    07   16.0  0.54  14.0   4.2
Pierce  08   21.8  0.59   6.3   3.7
Ray     08   20.3  0.71   2.5   1.8
Billups 09   18.2  0.58   6.0   2.3

he could've stopped these guys. he did not.

Why are you listing so many point guards?, Kobe did a very good defensive job against Iverson from what I remember. Someone here posted that Kobe held him to 37% shooting, I don't think you can do much better. Kidd and the nets got swept by the Lakers, so there was no need for Kobe to D him up. Last year against billups he did better than anyone else on the team, but he was switching between guarding Pierce, Smith, and billups. Nash? I don't recall Kobe guarding Nash in the playoffs, that was mostly Smush. Pierce is a SF and was mostly guarded by Ariza, Ray Allen was mostly guarded by Fisher, Kobe was guarding Rondo for most of the series. Obviously bigs have more of an impact on D, just look at the Defensive player of the year award in the past 20 years only 2 guards have won it.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_defense_by_player.html
^^ That is very good company. You don't make All-Defensive 1st team selections by being an average defender.

[That Nicka]

hmm, let's see:

Code: Select all

       year   PPG   TS%   APG   TOV
Penny   00   21.4  0.57   5.6   2.2
Reggie  00   24.3  0.59   3.7   1.3
AI      01   35.6  0.49   3.8   2.4
Bibby   02   22.7  0.53   4.4   2.4
Kidd    02   20.8  0.49   9.8   3.0
Wally   03   14.5  0.59   2.2   3.0
Manu    03   11.7  0.66   2.5   1.5
Francis 04   19.2  0.55   7.6   4.2
Manu    04   14.7  0.59   3.7   1.8
Spree   04   20.8  0.51   5.0   2.3
Wally   04   14.8  0.55   2.2   2.8
Rip     04   21.4  0.50   4.0   4.6
Nash    06   22.1  0.63   9.6   3.9
Nash    07   16.0  0.54  14.0   4.2
Pierce  08   21.8  0.59   6.3   3.7
Ray     08   20.3  0.71   2.5   1.8
Billups 09   18.2  0.58   6.0   2.3

he could've stopped these guys. he did not.

or you could put the stats of the players he actually guarded.

he guarded Kidd, not Penny in 2000.
He was injured for 2 games of the Finals against Reggie.
Fisher mainly guarded AI in 01 (btw 49% TS is not good)
Kobe defended Bobby Jackson and Christie not Bibby
Kobe defended Kittles/Harris, not Kidd in 02
I dont think Kobe defended Wally in 03 as he was an SF.. either way he was held below his average in the playoffs
He defended Mobley, not Francis, in 04
I'll give you Manu in 03-04 who played on a championship caliber team and has always done well against Kobe
Sprewell 51%TS in 04 is nothing special.
Why did you post Sprewell and Wally in 04? Was he supposed to guard them both?
Rip played well that series but 50% TS again is nothing special
Kobe obviously didnt defend Nash
Kobe defended Rondo in 08
Kobe didnt defend Billups last year.



So out of this entire list, I'll grant you Manu, Reggie Miller and MAYBE Rip/Sprewell who put up less than stellar TS%.... Next are we going to go through Hakeem's career and post all the PFs and SFs that he failed to contain?

[CousinOfDeath]

Lol this thread is awesome.

It's the two most overrated players on Realgm and their fans in a fight to the death.

[NO-KG-AI]

I remember Dirk giving it to KG pretty good in that series, even if Garnett didn't guard him the entire time.

Probably the best I've seen someone put it to Garnett.

[Silver Bullet]

So a question for everybody participating in this thread...

If Kobe wins the ring this year, does he rank ahead of Hakeem ?

[Jimmy76]

So a question for everybody participating in this thread...

If Kobe wins the ring this year, does he rank ahead of Hakeem ?

yes easily

[Laimbeer]

So a question for everybody participating in this thread...

If Kobe wins the ring this year, does he rank ahead of Hakeem ?

That would probably do it. That would give him two rings as the main guy, and I don't think his supporting cast was much better than Hakeem's when he won it.

[NO-KG-AI]

So a question for everybody participating in this thread...

If Kobe wins the ring this year, does he rank ahead of Hakeem ?

That would probably do it. That would give him two rings as the main guy, and I don't think his supporting cast was much better than Hakeem's when he won it.

That's pushing it.

[Vindicater]

So a question for everybody participating in this thread...

If Kobe wins the ring this year, does he rank ahead of Hakeem ?

That would probably do it. That would give him two rings as the main guy, and I don't think his supporting cast was much better than Hakeem's when he won it.

I don't always agree with the lovefest this board has for Hakeem, but his supporting cast was much worse than Kobes is now and two years ago.

[Silver Bullet]

So a question for everybody participating in this thread...

If Kobe wins the ring this year, does he rank ahead of Hakeem ?

That would probably do it. That would give him two rings as the main guy, and I don't think his supporting cast was much better than Hakeem's when he won it.

I don't always agree with the lovefest this board has for Hakeem, but his supporting cast was much worse than Kobes is now and two years ago.

Kobe will have 5 rings vs Hakeem's 2 when the best team in the league wasn't even playing.

[An Unbiased Fan]

So a question for everybody participating in this thread...

If Kobe wins the ring this year, does he rank ahead of Hakeem ?

That would probably do it. That would give him two rings as the main guy, and I don't think his supporting cast was much better than Hakeem's when he won it.

I don't always agree with the lovefest this board has for Hakeem, but his supporting cast was much worse than Kobes is now and two years ago.

To be fair, he also played against much weaker competition.

[Jordan23Forever]

To be fair, he also played against much weaker competition.

Huh? The '95 Magic and '94 Knicks were better than the '09 Magic.

[MagicFan32]

Realgm, where Kobe becomes the most overrated player of all time. Kobe's peak doesnt stack up to Hakeem's peak. He can never pass Hakeem. The teams Hakeem won with had no where near the talent level Kobe's title teams have had. Personally I dont think Kobe can get higher than the 10th spot all time, his career has practically been written, we have already seen the best Kobe can offer.

the teams hakeem won with were when MJ allowed him to win

Oh brother.......yet another Jordan Jocker spouting revionist history as if Jordan didn't actually come back until 95-96 season.

I guess Jordan that couldn't even inspire his Bulls to a +.500 allowed Hakeem to beat heavily favoured champion LA in only 5 games on the road. Why wasn't Mike stopping Hakeem from a title in '86? If Jordan is this all-worldly invincible dominating figure his Jockers try to portray him as then why'd it take him take 3 straight playoff loses to get past Detroit and homecourt advantage and Hakeem in only 5 games on the road vs, defending titlist LA in his first try?

oh brother, someone who clearly is a hakeem homer....

mj wasnt mj until his first full year back. the fact of the matter is, the bulls in 94 with mj woulda been much better than the knicks, the fact remains only winning when MJ allows you to doesn't help any arguments in hakeems favor

I guess Jordan (and his Bulls) that never swept a team on the road or swept a Finals even with HCA allowed Hakeem's Rockets to perform that rare feat too huh? They couldn't even beat a team that Hakeem's Rockets beat. And funny how a "rusty" guy posts pretty much his career postseason averages in a losing effort and his Jocker fanbase makes it seem like he came back in 95-96 and became this much greater player in the playoffs. And MJ's Bulls could not push around Hakeem before he even reached his peak during their 1st 3peat years.

sure thing man

94-96 rox >>>> all, that's why they were a 6 seed in 95, they never would have beaten the bulls in either run. MJ was a different animal in the playoffs, thats why during the 2 3peats they lost one freakin playoff series mj played in.......when he was 45 and played half a season.

you can do the math on the bulls playoff record

[Harry10]

oh good lord no!

Kobe is not even better than KG or Wade

Was that sarcastic?

I have Kobe over Wade, definitely. Based on play, I'd take KG over Kobe, but based on career..Kobe over KG. KG was just unlucky to play on crap teams with the Wolves.

put Wade on those Laker teams and the Lakers get 5 rings and not 4, cause Wade easily takes down the Pistons.

KG has one ring (when he finally got help) and one MVP. put Kobe on those Wolves team and the Wolves do alot worst.

[doremi]

oh good lord no!

Kobe is not even better than KG or Wade

Was that sarcastic?

I have Kobe over Wade, definitely. Based on play, I'd take KG over Kobe, but based on career..Kobe over KG. KG was just unlucky to play on crap teams with the Wolves.

put Wade on those Laker teams and the Lakers get 5 rings and not 4, cause Wade easily takes down the Pistons.

KG has one ring (when he finally got help) and one MVP. put Kobe on those Wolves team and the Wolves do alot worst.

Fact.

Now tell me the next set of winning lotto numbers.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

[/quote]oh brother, someone who clearly is a hakeem homer....

mj wasnt mj until his first full year back. the fact of the matter is, the bulls in 94 with mj woulda been much better than the knicks, the fact remains only winning when MJ allows you to doesn't help any arguments in hakeems favor

94-96 rox >>>> all, that's why they were a 6 seed in 95, they never would have beaten the bulls in either run. MJ was a different animal in the playoffs, thats why during the 2 3peats they lost one freakin playoff series mj played in.......when he was 45 and played half a season.

you can do the math on the bulls playoff record[/quote]

Yeah sure. A non-rusty MJ shot 41% in the NBA Finals and you make it out to be him being "in shape" as the difference between winning and losing a title. If this was the case a "peak" MJ putting up all-world numbers wouldn't have lost 3 straight series to Detroit. The REAL difference was the Bulls didn't have a defensive PF and Grant/O'neal ate them alive. No way they'd have won 6 titles w/o Grant/Rodman.

And the Rockets 6th seed isn't a true testament of their record. The team they started out with was different from the one they finished with, and in between Maxwell got suspended and Hakeem missed 10 games.

But I guess to a Jordan Jocker just throwing MJ in his prime on a court was enough to beat anyone under any circumstances anywhere.

[sp6r=underrated]

And the Rockets 6th seed isn't a true testament of their record

Its a myth that the Rockets took off after they added Drexler. They finished the regular season with a 17-18 record (18 home, 17 away). Hakeem never missed time during that span.

Sorry, the 95 Rockets are arguably the worst NBA champion of the last 40 years. The 1995 Rockets, were one of, if not the worst rebounding team to ever win a championship. Their defense was totally mediocre in both the regular season and post-season. They were a 47 win caliber team that caught fire at the right time while getting very lucky.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

And the Rockets 6th seed isn't a true testament of their record

Its a myth that the Rockets took off after they added Drexler. They finished the regular season with a 17-18 record (18 home, 17 away). Hakeem never missed time during that span.

Sorry, the 95 Rockets are arguably the worst NBA champion of the last 40 years. The 1995 Rockets, were one of, if not the worst rebounding team to ever win a championship. Their defense was totally mediocre in both the regular season and post-season. They were a 47 win caliber team that caught fire at the right time while getting very lucky.

Yeah well I feel if Clyde played the entire season with them, their record could've been better. He shot the ball a lot better in Houston than he did in Portland.

They had a lot of holes and guys playing out of position like Horry at PF for long stretches. And won't ever make anyone's top10 all-time title teams. But at the same time they swept a NBA Finals....on the road. That almost never happens in professional sports. That has only happened one other time in NBA history (1975 Rick Barry's Warriors).