Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

[eminence]

I'd say KD/Kobe/whoever one thinks may not belong really are in Ben's top 15 peaks and I doubt he'd fudge that. Now did he pick 15 in part due to wanting to get in some those guys, maybe a little.

[HeartBreakKid]

You also have to realize that he probably has Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson and possibly West/Erving in his top 15, but they are pre NBA merger players - so four or five of the players in the series are not really his top 15.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Come on, say it. Say it. "Dirk was snubbed". Say. It. SAY IT.

Spoiler:

I agree btw

Dirk deserved a vid over Durant, but the thinking that Taylor was biased in some way is pretty unfair. If you look at his CORP evaluations done back in the 19 season, he had KD's peak higher than Kobe's, Dirk's, etc. This isn't some new development by him that came out of nowhere. He has always been high on Durant due to his shooting, and him making the GSW offense go from all-time to the GOAT offense.

He quite literally had his old work up, so I don't know why KD being in here is some kind of surprise, unless you felt that some people since 19 have peaked higher than Durant (maybe Giannis)?

For some reason, my recollection was that he actually had Dirk higher than Durant in his CORP evaluations, so definitely my mistake there. Either way, I certainly wasn't intending to deeply criticize Taylor or the Thinking Basketball channel. They're the best in the business by a country mile.

No problem. I apologize, if I came off as rude/arrogant. I promise that wasn't my intention and I probably should have read over my comment in advance as tone can be hard to understand over the internet. And you have every right to be critical of the series, after all, this is a discussion forum.

[GSP]

You also have to realize that he probably has Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson and possibly West/Erving in his top 15, but they are pre NBA merger players - so four or five of the players in the series are not really his top 15.

Russell/Wilt got their own ep but its basically top 16 if we're including them and Steph.

Elgee ranks Jerrys peak over Oscar FWIW think it might be even when factoring in injuries for Jerry but his peak Corp put Jerry a bit above Oscar. He saw peak Dr J on the same level as peak Nash/Dirk/Cp3 so below Jerry/Oscar/Kd and then Kobe/Wade a bit above that crop

Wade is prolly the only player besides Oscar/Jerry (Im including Russell/Wilt as part of the greatest peaks series) that Elgee wouldve had on that level. He even started a vid on Wade but scrapped it and he mentioned his peak during the Bron vid too

We already know he isnt as high on Kawhi or Harden and prolly has them below Nash/Dirk/Cp3 level. Cant imagine he has Giannis above Dr J but prolly even at best. Elgee is really high on peak Ad tho so maybe he might be a mention at some point but 2021 hasnt been that good for Ad and he quit in 2019 so that hurts his multiyear value

[Djoker]

The Curry video is coming out later today. That should be a really good one. I'm curious to see how Ben breaks down his game. His off-ball gravity and defense in particular...

[Goudelock]

The Curry video is coming out later today. That should be a really good one. I'm curious to see how Ben breaks down his game. His off-ball gravity and defense in particular...

I haven't seen him promote that video at all on social media, so he may be saving it for next week?

[70sFan]

It's not available for $4 patrons, so it won't be published today I'm afraid.

[Narigo]

Watch on YouTube

[Todeasy]

I liked the video overall, but did anyone else get the impression that it came across as comparatively apologetic to Curry’s flaws? I think this would make sense since it IS clear that Ben favors curry.

With that being said unlike someone ala Durant, I don’t think it matters that much with Curry as he still has the impact to solidly deserve a video. However it does make me a little hesitant to put his offensive peak at the level of a MJ, Nash, Magic, etc.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I liked the video overall, but did anyone else get the impression that it came across as comparatively apologetic to Curry’s flaws? I think this would make sense since it IS clear that Ben favors curry.

With that being said unlike someone ala Durant, I don’t think it matters that much with Curry as he still has the impact to solidly deserve a video. However it does make me a little hesitant to put his offensive peak at the level of a MJ, Nash, Magic, etc.

He tends to do this, when he feels like perhaps the mainstream/common basketball guru opinion has a different opinion from him and therefore he has to try hard to convince people to see his way of thinking. It is totally understandable why he does that, but yeah I also would put as a fringe top 5 offensive player ever, in a tier below the 3 you named along with Lebron. He seems to believe Steph's drop off is more due to injury, and similar to Bird he absolutely loves off ball play and is willing to excuse poor play moreso.

[Jaivl]

I liked the video overall, but did anyone else get the impression that it came across as comparatively apologetic to Curry’s flaws? I think this would make sense since it IS clear that Ben favors curry.

With that being said unlike someone ala Durant, I don’t think it matters that much with Curry as he still has the impact to solidly deserve a video. However it does make me a little hesitant to put his offensive peak at the level of a MJ, Nash, Magic, etc.

Yeah, plus you'd think that, for example, Curry was a better defensive player than Jordan. Weird aftertaste.

[yoyoboy]

It was a really good video overall. I especially enjoyed the portion focusing on Steph's off ball insanity. I do think in discussing the "targeting" that Houston and Cleveland did to Steph and making it seem like it largely didn't work, Ben paid too much attention to the defensive side of the ball and not enough to how it wore down Curry's offense after having to expend so much energy on the other end. That was the more important part of the strategy imo.

[Todeasy]

I liked the video overall, but did anyone else get the impression that it came across as comparatively apologetic to Curry’s flaws? I think this would make sense since it IS clear that Ben favors curry.

With that being said unlike someone ala Durant, I don’t think it matters that much with Curry as he still has the impact to solidly deserve a video. However it does make me a little hesitant to put his offensive peak at the level of a MJ, Nash, Magic, etc.

Yeah, plus you'd think that, for example, Curry was a better defensive player than Jordan. Weird aftertaste.

Ehhh I don’t know if I’d go that far. Although his descriptions were glowing he also pretty definitively states he considered Curry to be a slight positive at best compared to Jordan to which he had as “strong but below defensive anchors” IIRC. There’s a world of difference between those levels, even with the difference in delivery.

[therealbig3]

Yeah it did feel like he was almost trying to convince people of how great Curry is, because he knows there are some polarizing opinions of him...imo, this is clearly the one he put the most effort into, as evidenced by the run time.

Still a great video, and I love the breakdown of Curry's off-ball impact the most.

But to me, he kind of glosses over the elephant in the room with Curry, and it's something I've harped on plenty: for all of his insane RS production and visible offensive impact...he HAS been successfully slowed down in the playoffs to a greater degree than other elite offensive anchors. And for the most part, the Warriors offense in the PS has NOT been overly impressive, at least in the GOAT context. They had one season where they dominated the PS offensively (2017, Durant's first year with the team), but range from below average to above average, but not spectacular, in every other year of their run (15-19).

And I think what happens is that people tend to kind of combine 2017 with all the other PS runs, and of course the offensive numbers now look awesome, because 2017 will bring everything up massively. And I notice that in the numbers that Taylor put up in the video, all of those stretches pretty much always include 2017. IMO, it's a clear outlier and had a lot to do with Kevin Durant as well.

So based on the RS yes, you can make a great case for Curry being the offensive GOAT. I would probably agree with that. But based on the PS, when you have other offensive anchors that have consistently led dominant PS offenses and Curry just hasn't, it's hard for me to actually put him there. LeBron and Nash among the more modern offensive engines were simply more effective in their approach come playoff time. Not only them, but so were guys like Dirk and Kobe in fact.

IMO, Curry is a borderline top 5 offensive anchor in the last 20 years, never mind all-time. Which is ok, he's still awesome, and I would ultimately still take him over Durant (although this is a much closer comparison than I previously thought), Harden, and CP3 as an offensive anchor. But he's got limited vision and is an inconsistent passer/playmaker in comparison to LeBron, Nash, Magic, and his shooting does come down to earth a bit in the PS when teams are more physical with him, and his overall decision-making isn't the greatest when he's pressured and it leads to a lot of turnovers as well. And defensively, I ultimately agree with the video that he's not a negative and is probably a small positive, but the video definitely doesn't highlight his negatives the way it could have. So ultimately, I can't take him over LeBron or Nash, and it's hard for me to take him over Kobe/Dirk/Shaq when they were simply more effective, even though their games may not have been as aesthetically pleasing.

[LukaTheGOAT]

My guess for the top 10 peaks if he is doing it with everyone at full health:

1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. KG
6. Kareem
7. Curry
8. Duncan
9. Robinson
10. Walton

He might've changed his opinion since his CORP evaluations, but this is the vibe I get from when he speaks in his vids. KG and Kareem are practically tied. And Walton and Robinson can go either way.

[eminence]

Not surprised that the initial responses here are generally along the lines of 'sure, he's good, but he's not that good'.

[Jaivl]

Not surprised that the initial responses here are generally along the lines of 'sure, he's good, but he's not that good'.

Why's that?

Also, prediction time

Jordan
LeBron
Shaq
Hakeem
Cap
Curry
Duncan
Garnett
Bird
Robinson

[Peregrine01]

Yeah it did feel like he was almost trying to convince people of how great Curry is, because he knows there are some polarizing opinions of him...imo, this is clearly the one he put the most effort into, as evidenced by the run time.

Still a great video, and I love the breakdown of Curry's off-ball impact the most.

But to me, he kind of glosses over the elephant in the room with Curry, and it's something I've harped on plenty: for all of his insane RS production and visible offensive impact...he HAS been successfully slowed down in the playoffs to a greater degree than other elite offensive anchors. And for the most part, the Warriors offense in the PS has NOT been overly impressive, at least in the GOAT context. They had one season where they dominated the PS offensively (2017, Durant's first year with the team), but range from below average to above average, but not spectacular, in every other year of their run (15-19).

And I think what happens is that people tend to kind of combine 2017 with all the other PS runs, and of course the offensive numbers now look awesome, because 2017 will bring everything up massively. And I notice that in the numbers that Taylor put up in the video, all of those stretches pretty much always include 2017. IMO, it's a clear outlier and had a lot to do with Kevin Durant as well.

So based on the RS yes, you can make a great case for Curry being the offensive GOAT. I would probably agree with that. But based on the PS, when you have other offensive anchors that have consistently led dominant PS offenses and Curry just hasn't, it's hard for me to actually put him there. LeBron and Nash among the more modern offensive engines were simply more effective in their approach come playoff time. Not only them, but so were guys like Dirk and Kobe in fact.

IMO, Curry is a borderline top 5 offensive anchor in the last 20 years, never mind all-time. Which is ok, he's still awesome, and I would ultimately still take him over Durant (although this is a much closer comparison than I previously thought), Harden, and CP3 as an offensive anchor. But he's got limited vision and is an inconsistent passer/playmaker in comparison to LeBron, Nash, Magic, and his shooting does come down to earth a bit in the PS when teams are more physical with him, and his overall decision-making isn't the greatest when he's pressured and it leads to a lot of turnovers as well. And defensively, I ultimately agree with the video that he's not a negative and is probably a small positive, but the video definitely doesn't highlight his negatives the way it could have. So ultimately, I can't take him over LeBron or Nash, and it's hard for me to take him over Kobe/Dirk/Shaq when they were simply more effective, even though their games may not have been as aesthetically pleasing.

One thing that has hurt Curry as a playmaker in comparison to a guy like Nash is that the Warriors teams weren't really designed for the spaced-out style that the Suns played. They really didn't have shooters outside of Curry, Klay and then later KD. Those guys shared the court with multiple non-shooters like Dray, Iggy, Livingston, Barnes, Bogut, Javale and Pachulia. This gummed things up by allowing defenses to crowd the crap out of Curry or simply deny him from even touching the ball. Compare this to Nash or Lebron who are surrounded by shooters all the time they're on the floor and can play pick and roll endlessly against a spaced out floor. This was a big reason why the Warriors offense always fell off a cliff when Curry went out - even during the Durant years.

I attribute a lot of the effectiveness of the denial defense to Kerr actually - he was so intent on maximizing Curry off the ball to get other guys going that he failed to see that his best offensive player wasn't even able to get the ball. Smart defensive teams like OKC, Houston and the Cavs noticed that and were able to punish the Warriors for their insistence on this style of play. This season has taken it to another level: the Warriors are facing this kind of defense on a nightly basis.

[Goudelock]

Taylor was much more negative concerning his passing than I expected him to be. I've always though of Curry as a solid A passer, although this video shows some noticeable holes in his facilitating arsenal when faced with size.

The amount of impact Curry has off-ball is comical tho and I'm glad Elgee took plenty of time to showcase it. Curry was basically the Randy Moss of basketball in that he didn't even need to have the ball to make the team's offense get going.

[eminence]

Not surprised that the initial responses here are generally along the lines of 'sure, he's good, but he's not that good'.

Why's that?

Also, prediction time

Jordan
LeBron
Shaq
Hakeem
Cap
Curry
Duncan
Garnett
Bird
Robinson

The forum in general is lower on Curry than Ben/I both are at this point in time as best I can tell.