James Harden is a superstar

[Sasaki]

He is at 26/5/5 now at 45% FG, those are as good as Tmac's numbers as a Rocket who in effect was considered a superstar.

Didn't realize until I looked, but I had no idea just how mediocre T-Mac's numbers as a Rocket really were. Harden is blowing Houston T-Mac out of the water and is comparable to some of Orlando T-Mac's seasons, and this is on a team whose second best offensive option is Chandler Parsons.

[Vator]

When consdering all of these numbers between Harden and Westbrook, I just think it's only fair to take into consideration supporting cast. Harden is doing a lot on a team with a bunch of people that the casual fan has never heard of. The 2nd leading scorer on the Rockets is Chandler Parsons who right now is averaging 14.7 points per game. I like him and all, but come on. Westbrook's supporting cast is far superior at nearly every position and having Durant on the floor with you during crunch time is certainly beneficial. Westbrook is flashy and he gambles. Sometimes you have the Dallas game from the other night and other times you have the Spurs game where he completely loses Tony Parker for the game winning jumper. OJ Mayo was practically playing for the Thunder the whole game while Wetbrook was getting torched by Collison. He is no defensive stopper. When he does make plays, he does so with probably the most physical gifts out of anybody that has ever played the PG position so it is jaw dropping and spectacular in fashion. That is what people remember. Not to mention the help defense behind him is infinitely better. Ibaka, Durant, Perkins, Sefolosha, Collison compard to just Asik

[Ayt]

What's wrong with what i posted? I actually like Harden and i hope he is successful i still don't think he is a superstar tho just my opinion but if he keeps it up and Rockets keep winning then that would be impressive. It would really be cool if he could lead the Rockets into the playoffs if he could do then i am sure that will silence then Harden detractors....You could argue he is better then Westbrook tho i always preferred the way Harden played over Westbrook

You stated he was incredible as a 2nd/3rd option. Well, he's actually incredible as a 1st option.

[Ayt]

For those of you who consider James Harden a superstar right now, did you guys also consider Paul Pierce to be one too during his prime?

As I had stated in my last post, Harden reminds me a lot of Pierce. I would say Pierce was better though and this is mainly because he was a better defender, mid-range shooter, and probably passer too. Both attack the basket and get to the line at will despite looking unathletic and slow.

I actually think those two being slow or not as fast as say a Russell Westbrook gives them the benefit from officials because they can see more of the contact. Someone like Westbrook takes a lot of contact, but since he is so quick and fast, officials sometimes miss it.

Harden isn't slow for a guy that big. He's a bull at SG. He's has exceptional change of direction ability, explosiveness out of the first step, and amazing body control. People who aren't impressed by Harden physically baffle me.

I'm not sure if Harden has superstar impact, but he certainly has superstar brand. I think he is more known than Kevin Love, Lamarcus Aldridge, etc. but I'm not necessarily sure if he is better than them though. I would say he is better than Aldridge, but not Love.

Well, he is the Rockets offense and they are 7th in the league in ORTG. How many players are there in the league who have a bigger overall offensive impact on their team?

[OptimusOne6]

So neither come off looking good. Harden has a slight edge. Nothing big enough to claim he's clearly better than Melo, but that he has the edge at all does mean that giving Melo the clear edge here I don't think stands up.

And as mentioned, Melo is now playing power forward. Short of system changes, we can expect his rebounding to be worse now because he competing with bigger players.

Re: Melo still playing a good amount of 3. Really? Care to go more into detail? Not saying he does none, but that's not my impression, and it would be kind of amazing for Amare to move to a 6th man role if there wasn't a conflict between he and Melo in the new setup.

Re: Melo a better scorer. I would say Melo's skill level as a scorer is extraordinary. More so than Harden definitely. Prior to this year though Melo's execution on that skillset in a team concept has left a lot to be desired. Not that I'd argue against Melo being clearly the more valuable player right now, he is, but if you're seeing Melo as Melo, always the superior scorer, well there's a lot more than that going on.

Interesting take on this. I remember I use to be someone that would give bonuses to PGs and SGs for being the best rebounders at their position over bigs who were weak at their position, but I realized that it could be pointless because the big still averages more. I suppose I could go back to that theory with your explanation.

But you do understand the argument for Melo right? Melo is just dynamic and versatile of a scorer. He is actually living up to the name of being arguably the best scorer in the league.

Will he keep it up? Not sure, but at the same time, we don't know if Harden will keep it up either.

When comparing Harden and Melo, it really does come down to who is a better scorer, because that's their best facets. I think Melo is quite clearly the better scorer and so much better of a scorer that Harden's slight passing ability shouldn't make the difference. Again, as I've constantly stated in this thread, Harden is an incredibly overrated passer to me.

To me, Harden is a great decision maker when it comes to shot selection, but not so much when it comes to passing. Westbrook is pretty much the opposite, he takes awful shots, but he makes tremendous passes. I'll be talking about Westbrook in this next quote...

It's not a matter of faulting, it's a matter of being cautious in giving Westbrook a huge thumb's up in an area that his team is completely sucking at. I understand that you might feel you understand the situation well enough to separate Westbrook from what the team is doing, I just tread carefully there. In general I've seen a lot of people go down some nasty rabbit holes putting too much stock in a good individual stat in a bad team context.

Well nevertheless, I do feel like Westbrook is clearly the better passer/playmaker than Harden is. He is also better at handling the rock and taking care of it as both individual stats show, apg, topg, etc.

I hope you don't think neither Westbrook or Melo have no argument, because they both have great arguments and arguments that make me believe they are better.

Westbrook's argument over Harden is his all-around play and his scoring versatility. Like I said, I don't trust Harden too much when defenses are set, slowed down, and at the clutch. I trust Westbrook a little more than Harden and I trust Melo a lot more than Harden then. I also trust Westbrook's other abilities to impact the game like his defense, rebounding, and playmaking. Westbrook is the best rebounding PG at his position, and not just that, he overall averages more rebounds than Harden does per game despite playing less minutes.

[comingbacktousa]

Harden is a better play maker than Westbrook. In fact, he is better than him on offense period. Harden is much more efficient. Harden averages almost 5 more ppg one one less shot attempt. They average about the same number of turnovers a game. However Westbrook is a better defended if he tries and is a better rebounder. Westbrook has really high assist numbers more as a function of all the good shooters he plays with (Durant, Martin, Ibaka even).
I don't trust Westbrook in the clutch because he tries to play hero ball instead of deferring to Durant. After 5 full seasons he still doesn't think he should let the best scorer in the nba have the ball when the game is on the line.

But as far as this thread goes, Harden is leading the Rockets to being a borderline top 10 team in the NBA. I was really hesitant to call him a superstar before but due to his impact on the Rockets, you have to believe he is a superstar.

[OptimusOne6]

Westbrook has really high assist numbers more as a function of all the good shooters he plays with (Durant, Martin, Ibaka even).
.

Having better shooters does not equate to averaging 3 more apg. Westbrook is just a better playmaker/passer, plain and simple. Even players who have been on terrible teams could at least average 7 apg, like Lebron in Cleveland, Jose Calderon in Toronto, etc. Harden just isn't that impressive on that end. It is what it is.

[rrravenred]

Jordan? Kobe? TMac? Frazier? Plenty of good passers don't average 7 APG for the vast majority of their careers.

Not making a call on Harden/Westbrook in terms of passing ability, however.

[OptimusOne6]

Jordan? Kobe? TMac? Frazier? Plenty of good passers don't average 7 APG for the vast majority of their careers.

Not making a call on Harden/Westbrook in terms of passing ability, however.

Those guys were all scorers, except Frazier. Frazier and Jordan did average 7+ APG at one point though.

I'm still not sure where the argument that Harden is a better playmaker/passer anyways, not a whole lot backing up besides media hype. A lot of media people just say Harden is their best passer/playmaker and that's it, but not factual evidence he is. I suppose it probably stems because it seems like Harden is more a willing passer but even then I'm not so sure if that's true. Westbrook's selfishness comes from his poor shot selection, but that doesn't make him a bad passer/playmaker or worse than Harden on that end.

[rrravenred]

Well yeah, which is why you need to be careful conflating passing ability with statistical production, given that role is a pretty important determinant of the assist stat especially (see all the kerfuffle about Rondo in recent threads, for example, or Calderon, who you mentioned).

Westbrook has the advantage of Durant being a fantastic off-ball player wheras Harden has found himself on a team with another player whose use is primarily on-ball (Lin).

Not saying you're wrong, just that the numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt or two.

[Doctor MJ]

Westbrook has really high assist numbers more as a function of all the good shooters he plays with (Durant, Martin, Ibaka even).
.

Having better shooters does not equate to averaging 3 more apg. Westbrook is just a better playmaker/passer, plain and simple. Even players who have been on terrible teams could at least average 7 apg, like Lebron in Cleveland, Jose Calderon in Toronto, etc. Harden just isn't that impressive on that end. It is what it is.

I think you rely just way too much on an individual's assist numbers as a short cut for their playmaking. The goal of a playmaker is not to rack up the most of assists, and their offenses and roles that inflate and deflate an individual's assist totals compared to what help they actually give their team.

Rondo for example last year led the league in assists while running an offense that had a terrible ORtg. Does that mean he's so good he's getting assists despite terrible teammates? Of course not. In his case it means he's on a team with a bunch of players prone to jump shots. This means they aren't super-efficient in making their shots, but when they do, somebody gets an assist. It's not Rondo's fault, but his assists were most definitely inflated.

Getting into Westbrook, I suppose fundamentally the issue I have with people just asserting his playmaking is the fact that he's someone known for shooting a lot, and shooting inefficiently. A good playmaker is supposed to be passing the ball rather than taking bad shots.

Now, that didn't stop Jason Kidd from having a poor efficiency, but that's because there's a bit of a limit to how little you can shoot the ball when you're ball dominant. Westbrook continues to be the LEADING shottaker when he's on the floor despite being Kidd-like in his inefficiency and playing next to a scorer orders of magnitude better than any prime Kidd got to work with. This is not something that can just be written off. A better distributor would distribute more in this situation.

Now back to Harden for a second here. Harden despite shooting way more than his teammates is still way more efficient in his shooting than his teammates. Sure, he could get more assists by passing more...but a distributor doesn't pass it just to pass it. He's calling the number of the guy who can do the most with it. For Harden that really is Harden most of the time.

Finally I'll go back to last year and point out that Harden almost equaled Westbrook's assists per minute when they played together despite the fact that when they were both on the court Harden played off-ball, and the team's assists per minute went up whenever Westbrook went to the bench.

Bottom line, it's really, really easy to find reason why you have to go deeper before you praise Westbrook on this front.

[rrravenred]

A good playmaker gives his team the best shot at the basket when they're in control of the ball, whether that's them taking the shot or others. But the key thing is that they RECOGNISE what the best shot on the floor is and have the discipline to not make the assumption that because they have the ball, they should necessarily be taking the shot. Magic is king in this category (with Bird and Nash close on his heels).

[Doctor MJ]

Interesting take on this. I remember I use to be someone that would give bonuses to PGs and SGs for being the best rebounders at their position over bigs who were weak at their position, but I realized that it could be pointless because the big still averages more. I suppose I could go back to that theory with your explanation.

But you do understand the argument for Melo right? Melo is just dynamic and versatile of a scorer. He is actually living up to the name of being arguably the best scorer in the league.

Will he keep it up? Not sure, but at the same time, we don't know if Harden will keep it up either.

When comparing Harden and Melo, it really does come down to who is a better scorer, because that's their best facets. I think Melo is quite clearly the better scorer and so much better of a scorer that Harden's slight passing ability shouldn't make the difference. Again, as I've constantly stated in this thread, Harden is an incredibly overrated passer to me.

I certainly understand the argument for Melo. Melo's in my MVP top 5 right now, Harden isn't. Melo has the edge. I'm emphasizing things as they are though because Melo's never been anywhere close to my top 5 before this year despite the fact that skill-wise he's basically the same player he's always been. Well and good to talk about your preferences for the ways a scorer ought to be able to attack the defense and to be a bit wary of Harden, but that needs to be paired with an understanding of just how drastically Melo's actual impact has varied depending on context. Neither of these guys is the sure thing that a LeBron or a Durant is.

[Doctor MJ]

A good playmaker gives his team the best shot at the basket when they're in control of the ball, whether that's themselves or others. But the key thing is that they RECOGNISE what the best shot on the floor is and have the discipline to not make the assumption that because they have the ball, they should necessarily be taking the shot. Magic is king in this category (with Bird and Nash close on his heels).

Right, it's the awareness that makes a great playmaker probably more than the actual physical passing ability.

[OptimusOne6]

A good playmaker gives his team the best shot at the basket when they're in control of the ball, whether that's them taking the shot or others. But the key thing is that they RECOGNISE what the best shot on the floor is and have the discipline to not make the assumption that because they have the ball, they should necessarily be taking the shot. Magic is king in this category (with Bird and Nash close on his heels).

Interesting definition of playmaker then. I've always thought playmaker was just setting others up for good shots and stuff, nothing about taking shots yourself.

I've always thought one's playmaking skills could go down due to loss of athleticism and not being able to penetrate and get to the rim as easily. They can't create as much for their teammates and make the defense help. I also thought that one's passing skills would always remain the same or better and this is just making good passes like the bounce pass, chest pass, etc.

I suppose I would agree to Harden being a better playmaker, but Westbrook being a better passer. I think when it comes to passing, I'll take Westbrook, but I've always thought passing and playmaking were close to the same thing, very miniscule difference.

[Wall34]

What's wrong with what i posted? I actually like Harden and i hope he is successful i still don't think he is a superstar tho just my opinion but if he keeps it up and Rockets keep winning then that would be impressive. It would really be cool if he could lead the Rockets into the playoffs if he could do then i am sure that will silence then Harden detractors....You could argue he is better then Westbrook tho i always preferred the way Harden played over Westbrook

You stated he was incredible as a 2nd/3rd option. Well, he's actually incredible as a 1st option.

I am just not sure if he is a number 1 option on a seriously contending team is all i meant by that...sure in the future he can prove me wrong he is young and playing well as a number 1 option right now i am just not a quick to proclaim someone a superstar as others are.

[tsherkin]

I am just not sure if he is a number 1 option on a seriously contending team is all i meant by that...sure in the future he can prove me wrong he is young and playing well as a number 1 option right now i am just not a quick to proclaim someone a superstar as others are.

He's in the middle of proving you wrong right now; there's nothing about his style that wouldn't work on a more developed team, that is a team with the actual talent requisite for contention, which Houston does not possess at this time.

"Superstar" is a big label and, in general, has as much to do with factors outside of a player's control as anything, but you're looking at a highly efficient 25 ppg scoring guard with a reasonably well-rounded game, including good playmaking abilities; those don't grow on trees.

[Wall34]

I am just not sure if he is a number 1 option on a seriously contending team is all i meant by that...sure in the future he can prove me wrong he is young and playing well as a number 1 option right now i am just not a quick to proclaim someone a superstar as others are.

He's in the middle of proving you wrong right now; there's nothing about his style that wouldn't work on a more developed team, that is a team with the actual talent requisite for contention, which Houston does not possess at this time.

"Superstar" is a big label and, in general, has as much to do with factors outside of a player's control as anything, but you're looking at a highly efficient 25 ppg scoring guard with a reasonably well-rounded game, including good playmaking abilities; those don't grow on trees.

I've already posted earlier in this thread how he was in the process of proving me wrong all i am saying is it is a long season...I'll just wait and see how things play out and hopefully after the seasons over i can come back into this thread and say i was wrong the whole time because i am fan of Harden's game. I've just never been the type to quickly proclaim a player a superstar i need more then a 30 game sample size.

[lukekarts]

Ok, maybe I was a bit harsh earlier in this topic. I still don't think he's a 'superstar' but he's very very close. Certainly looking like an All Star. Which is great - I don't mind being wrong, I really love watching Harden play.

[lorak]

Right now Harden is averaging +26 PPG on 60 TS%, +4 RPG and +5 APG. Only other players in history of the NBA who also did that: Bird (twice), LeBron (three times) and Jordan (four times). And these aren't empty stats, because Harden is leading Rockets to surprisingly good results: +3.5 SRS in tougher conference and 7th best ORTG with supporting cast of Asik, Lin, Parsons, Morris, Patterson. So if what Harden is doing isn't superstar like stuff, then there never was any superstar in the NBA.