The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3)

[Bergmaniac]

This guy is such a hack and pushes his own narratives all the time. I still remember the "Steph Curry is an elite defender" video lol. He cherrypicks like a troll. Unbelievable.

How dare you critisize a guy with such incredible credentials? We are talking a guy who was a high school coach at a random school for 3 whole years after all.

[GSP]

This guy is such a hack and pushes his own narratives all the time. I still remember the "Steph Curry is an elite defender" video lol. He cherrypicks like a troll. Unbelievable.

How dare you critisize a guy with such incredible credentials? We are talking a guy who was a high school coach at a random school for 3 whole years after all.

Lol its unbelievable how many ppl take his word for gospel and are sharing his videos everywhere on social media. I dont even remember how he blew up. Funny he didnt make any video after game 1 considering how good Lebrons defense was there. Has he even made one video on Kyrie or Loves defense and how they can defend the pickandroll like a couple Realgmers?

[te887848]

It's unfortunate for LeBron because it's really not his fault except for 2011. Of 5 Finals losses (this one looks like a wrap) there's really nothing he could've done to prevent 4 of them. This Golden State team is arguably the best in NBA history, top 2 at the absolute worst, and they have simply revolutionized the game of basketball for the better. It's a privilege and pleasure to watch such a not only dominant team, but I've never seen a more entertaining one.

I wasn't around for the whole Wilt/Russell thing, but those who were say that Wilt was the most dominant/greatest force ever and simply ran into much better teams of Russell in the FInals so it wasn't his fault that he lost so much. Perhaps this is one of those types of things with LeBron, because it sure isn't his fault he keeps losing to significantly superior teams.

[bondom34]

snip

Just and-1'ed this but wanted to add its a really well thought out explanation that pretty well sums up my feelings as well.

[Basileus777]

Has he even made one video on Kyrie or Loves defense and how they can defend the pickandroll like a couple Realgmers?

He's talked about it on plenty of his videos. He regularly rips both of them for their poor defense.

[therealbig3]

Eh, this year, I can't really give LeBron a pass for simply facing a superior team this time, since he's one of the main reasons why his team isn't really close right now. This is his hand-picked roster, with a coach that he preferred after the better one they had got fired, and it's mainly because of HIS decline as a player that's caused the Cavs to fall short of their potential. Losing a tough 6 or 7 game series against a team like this with the talent that the Cavs have is fine, but there's serious potential of this being a sweep, with 4 blowouts.

There's no lack of talent on the roster.

To me, the biggest issue has been his decline as an outside shooter. Do you know how much more dangerous this team would be if LeBron could shoot like he did in Miami? The fact that he can't makes the Cavs SO EASY to defend right now. The Warriors don't even need Curry or Klay out there, and they're killing the Cavs. That's embarrassing. I know they're probably the GOAT team, but it's not even close out there. The Cavs look like the Nets running into the Lakers in 02 right now. Just horrifically outmatched.

And you can't tell me that this team just doesn't have the talent to even compete, because as people pointed out, they were putting up incredible offensive numbers coming into the Finals. What's happening against GS? To me, the Cavs are guilty of what people were accusing GS of when they went down 3-1 against the Thunder...now that they're actually facing a true contender with elite defensive talent, the Cavs are being exposed big time. And the main reason is because their best player can't shoot.

They'd probably still lose with Miami LeBron, but at least they'd go down swinging.

[Bergmaniac]

I wasn't around for the whole Wilt/Russell thing, but those who were say that Wilt was the most dominant/greatest force ever and simply ran into much better teams of Russell in the FInals so it wasn't his fault that he lost so much.

I don't think that's really true. Wilt's teammates were about equally good to Russell's in most years he faced him in the playoffs.

[Dr Spaceman]

And offensively, LeBron's decline as a player is a big deal. I know we try to pretend like it's not, but I'm gonna go ahead and say that it's IMPOSSIBLE for the Cavs to beat anybody actually half decent until he regains his jumper. Otherwise, it's just too hard to score points...he might be able to lift a dreadful supporting cast to something that's not awful, like he did in last year's Finals, but there's a very low ceiling to the team offense against a defense like this, ESPECIALLY with defenders that can match up very well with LeBron. Even with superior offensive talent now, they're struggling to score, and it comes down to LeBron having the same serious flaws he had when he was a kid going up against SA or Boston...except he doesn't have the same motor and insane explosion off the dribble to somewhat combat that. 07/08 LeBron, THAT LeBron could have played better if he had better offensive help...but this LeBron doesn't have the off-the-dribble explosion anymore, and coupled with the lack of a jumper, he just can't do much offensively without ball stopping, grinding the offense to a halt, and just playing generally ugly basketball. All the offensive help in the world doesn't mean **** when he can't do anything off the dribble.

This Cavs team is built on the premise of their best player being a high scoring dynamic wing but 2016 Lebron is a athletic playmaking PF with limited range....Think 2013 Blake with a superior floor game. CLE/Lebron thought he was still a dominat perimeter player but he isn't. Thats my theory as to why they pushed for the Love trade. I NEVER understood what people saw in that paring. This paring is going to make less sense as Lebron ages

Going forward how would you construct a team around this player? Even if he were to become a respectable shooter again the days of him masquerading as a perimeter player are almost over.

I think this is a really good way to put it. I think Love being out will kind of force the Cavs to give their LeBron at 4 lineups a look, hopefully they can find something that sticks permanently. Obviously the problem remains that you're then trusting Kyrie with lead perimeter ball handling duty, which... It's hard to see a cogent team built around interior Bro-n that doesn't involve trading BOTH of the big 3.

[Doctor MJ]

Honestly feel a bit honored you quoted me Doc, thanks for that!

The thing is, I've repeated a couple times I do not enjoy seeing this Warriors team play. I feel if I keep doing it I'll come off as a troll who only says that one thing. Let me start by addressing your three points.

1) Steph and Klay are the two best shooters the league has ever seen, it's plain as day to see. My gripe with this is that the two best shooters ever are on the same team (I'm not knocking the GSW organization for this, mind, just pointing out just how much of an outlier this fact is when looking at the roster of teams). They are so much better at shooting threes (and shooting in general (like for FTs)) than anyone else on the other team that it kills the competition. I expect Steph and Klay to bomb like 35 threes and make like 20 of them. I don't see the excitement in seeing threes being shot every other possession.

2) For the outstanding passing and movement...I agree completely. This is a stacked team. Top to bottom. The players are not only athletic but they're smart out there on the court. The fact that the two best shooters ever are on the same team who are able to pull up from 30 and yeah, there will be enough space to put the Solar System to shame. This isn't lost on me, I acknowledge their greatness, I will not shy from admitting it. The only team that I've seen pass like that consistently is the 2014 Finals' Spurs. I can't knock this team for their passing, movement, and basketball IQ. This is unequivocally one of the best teams ever.

3) Outstanding resilience...I don't know about that, Doc. Yeah, they came back 2-1 in the Grizzlies series, they came back 2-1 against Cleveland last year, and this year obviously they punched back from 3-1. Okay, so what? The Grizz were injured; they were never going to beat GS. Same with the Cleveland series. LeBron had one of the best statistical Finals of all time, but one man does not beat a team as great as these Warriors. Now, the OKC series, that was tough, they didn't get rattled too much. But OKC clearly lost that series more than the Warriors won it (to my eyes at least). Durant and Westbrook straight wet the bed, they just couldn't hit a damn three to save their lives while Klay Thompson was hitting them from 30 feet on a standstill jumpshot, I mean what?? How do you defend that? And his teammate is even better? Whaaaaaat! Catch my drift? Course you do, you're one of the best minds on here haha

They do have good attitude. But this is professional sports, you have to have good attitude. Plus why wouldn't they? They won 73, about to repeat as champions, there's very little that would get them down. Regardless, yes, I do like their general attitude of having that champ swagger, but they're cocky as hell, rightfully so though. Can't knock them for this either.

Had OKC just shot decent (especially Durant) the last couple games they would have won. Like, there's no question of that in my mind...yet the Warriors are so good that they are going to force Durant to work on his game this summer, they're gonna force a 4 time scoring champion and MVP to get better. Yeah, I'll give the Warriors credit for making it difficult on the Thunder, but the Thunder *had* it. It was right there. They couldn't do it. *shrug

Tsherkin and Bondom had this same debate about the luck of which way the ball bounces in determining this series. I don't who it is exactly, but some member here has a sig with a Doc Rivers quote: It's a make or miss league, and it always will be. Warriors have two players who are the best of all time in this respect. It's almost not fair, but they are just that good, and when you're so good at something, it gets boring (again, to me at least).

I think it's great so many of you guys enjoy watching this team, appreciate the schemes and gameplans and plays they run. I like that too! It's just the destination kills me: pass, pass, pass, shoot three. Rinse and repeat. To this one can say: Well, their three point shot opens up the game for drives and kicks, which happens multiple times a game, it's how they sustain leads, teams get scared of them shooting threes so they panic and GS capitalizes on it, as they should. That's great too.

I'm not trying to troll the Warriors or just hate on them, because fundamentally I just do not enjoy watching them play. I'd rather watch Boogie and the Kings play to be quite honest with you. Or the Wolves, Blazers, Celtics,OKC, or Knicks. Warriors are too perfect for my taste. Give me dysfunction, good post play, and semi-bad shots to keep me entertained. Don't bore me by running around like headless chickens taking 50 threes (I guess this goes towards the majority of the league now). Anyways, sorry Doc, I've tried to say it as best I can, and I mean no disrespect to the Warriors. Great team, great organization, even better players.

Well, my pleasure. And thank you for taking my disagreement, such as it is, in stride.

Responding to your points:

1) The one thing I'd say when lamenting the shooting specifically, while acknowledging that it's a legit taste preference issue, is that Golden State right now is dominating the Eastern champion with a game that isn't really insane-shooting based at all. I realize that the gravity of Steph/Klay remains, and that has everything to do with why GS can do this...but I think it's crazy impressive that they can look this good with such ensemble scoring and defense. Nothing says "this is special" to me more than that.

2) I'd just want to draw a distinction: Not every guy out there has a brilliant individual BBIQ. The reason why every single guy looks smart is because of the structure and vibe that Kerr and his staff put in place. It very much feels like Pete Carroll's USC football team. I'm not saying that their individual BBIQ's on average aren't quite good, but the BBIQ on display is WAY beyond that, and that's where I can't help but be a fan.

3) I think you're putting too many qualifiers on what resilience is. The fact that as favorite they "should" be able to come back doesn't mean that if they do so they haven't earned - what I'll call - resilience points. The bigger favorite you are, the easier it is to get lost in your head - this is why teams who are said to have "nothing to lose" at times play so well. LeBron in particular has a track record for struggling precisely along these lines and seeing his team do it as well. (Although for those looking to call LeBron a choker, Kobe arguably had a worse track record though it manifested differently. Kobe's style tended to make his teammates lose their way leading to them losing by 30 in their elimination game.)

The Warriors have had plenty of reasons to doubt themselves. They haven't. Is their prior track record of success now helping them remain resolute? Sure, but that's just another way of saying that they think like champions now, and of course the thing about that is, you have to actually earn that.

Re: OKC losing more than GS winning. I disagree. As you said, GS doesn't win without freak shooting - even by their own standards. Fine to point out issues with what OKC did, but GS's top two scoring option stepped up BIG time, and in the end OKC is left having lost a very close series to a team that has had about as good of a season as any in history.

I keep saying it: Durant would be crazy to leave unless he actively personally dislikes the situation for reasons that aren't about basketball. It should be well set in all superstars minds now, as they watch LeBron struggle to find synergy yet again, that you can't just put a bunch of stars together and expect them to be anywhere near as good as the Warriors are. The Thunder have an actual matchup advantage against the Warriors, they have young role players who can get better, and they have a coach who can probably fine tune the team more. They are by far the biggest threat to GS's continued dominance right now, and that's not something to be tossed aside.

Re: last paragraph. Y'know, everyone is allowed to have their own taste. You're expressing your thoughts just fine and I look forward to more conversations with you.

I think it's tough for fans who really love a skill that gets "nerfed" by new rules & strategies. I tend to be pretty callous about it for a lot of people because to me they are just doing "old man yells at cloud"...even if they aren't old, but your taste is your own, and you aren't alone in being frustrated with the direction things are going.

[PCProductions]

I can understand the dislike of three point shooting, but saying OKC lost it more than GSW won it is pretty vacuous. Even bondom, whom has no love lost for the Warriors, didn't urge that one bit in the face of his team being eliminated. I mean, I'm not surprised people are piling on the Warriors like this, but it saddens me that people are so willing to discard the great things that they bring all in the name of hoping for them to lose/go away.

[bondom34]

I can understand the dislike of three point shooting, but saying OKC lost it more than GSW won it is pretty vacuous. Even bondom, whom has no love lost for the Warriors, didn't urge that one bit in the face of his team being eliminated. I mean, I'm not surprised people are piling on the Warriors like this, but it saddens me that people are so willing to discard the great things that they bring all in the name of hoping for them to lose/go away.

I actually missed that point in his post. Yeah I said I agreed w/ everything, that point wasn't totally true. OKC did to an extent lose it, but GSW deserved that series 100 percent, they won it. I never really counted them out and they did what they always seem to do.

[JulesWinnfield]

So if all of you have to bet everything you own on one outcome or the other.... Have we seen Lebrons last championship? Are you willing to bet that there is a 51% or greater chance that he doesn't lead a team to a title again? It's a tough call given that I still expect him to show up in the finals for the foreseeable future, and if you are continually there you will always have a punchers chance... But damn, it's really tough to see the window unless they get an injury break or a more favorable western matchup with someone out west doing the dirty work for them with golden state

[Texas Chuck]

So if all of you have to bet everything you own on one outcome or the other.... Have we seen Lebrons last championship? Are you willing to bet that there is a 51% or greater chance that he doesn't lead a team to a title again? It's a tough call given that I still expect him to show up in the finals for the foreseeable future, and if you are continually there you will always have a punchers chance... But damn, it's really tough to see the window unless they get an injury break or a more favorable western matchup with someone out west doing the dirty work for them with golden state

I wouldn't be surprised if older Lebron went ring-chasing if it became clear Cleveland wasn't going to be able to still be a contender. So even if I was willing to write him off as the best player on a champion, I could easily see him going to be a cog on a great team at the tail end of his career.

[PaulieWal]

I don't wanna get into it again and my thoughts on GSW winning the OKC series because of their contested 3s are well documented in the RPOY thread but I am seriously starting to wonder is this the GOAT shooting team overall? Or maybe the right way to put it is the GOAT shot making team of all time? At this point in every big playoff game they have someone going off making tough, contested shots. I mean we all know that's what just Curry/Klay do but game 1 you had Livingston and Barbosa making tough, tough shots. And then last night GReen is making contested pull-up 3s from the top of the key.

GSW is an incredible team but I am getting to the point where Bondom is in that I am starting to not enjoy watching them play. The irony is that last year I was on the GSW bandwagon during the Finals but this year it seems like their tough shot making ability is on another level. On a level I have never seen before.

---------------------------------------------

Anyway, this is also why I thought this series was going to be an easy 4-5 games for the Warriors. They are just a horrible, horrible match-up for the Cavs. ANd this is why I have never liked Kyrie's game either. He's still young so he can get there but he just hasn't shown good BBIQ throughout his career so far IMO.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BillSimmons/status/739638335589605376[/tweet]

[PaulieWal]

So if all of you have to bet everything you own on one outcome or the other.... Have we seen Lebrons last championship? Are you willing to bet that there is a 51% or greater chance that he doesn't lead a team to a title again? It's a tough call given that I still expect him to show up in the finals for the foreseeable future, and if you are continually there you will always have a punchers chance... But damn, it's really tough to see the window unless they get an injury break or a more favorable western matchup with someone out west doing the dirty work for them with golden state

I wouldn't be surprised if older Lebron went ring-chasing if it became clear Cleveland wasn't going to be able to still be a contender. So even if I was willing to write him off as the best player on a champion, I could easily see him going to be a cog on a great team at the tail end of his career.

Interesting, that's the one thing I don't think he will do IMO. I don't think he has it in him to go around ring chasing like a Shaq at the end. For his own legacy I also hope he does stay in Cleveland and just tries to win 1 there.

The thing is the Cavs don't have cap space to do anything but they still have two great trade chips in Love and Irving if they really wanna build a true title contender with 2 way players. I wouldn't write Cleveland off just yet. I know Love will be the fall guy but IMO they really should look to move both of them, not just Love.

[Texas Chuck]

Interesting, that's the one thing I don't think he will do IMO. I don't think he has it in him to go around ring chasing like a Shaq at the end. For his own legacy I also hope he does stay in Cleveland and just try to win 1 there.

Maybe not. I'd hope he stayed in Cleveland too. But in the scenario where its clear the Cavs can longer compete for titles, I could see him deciding to move on to play for more shots at titles. He's accomplished everything there is to accomplish and I have to believe Lebron cares more about winning than just piling up more statistics. The wild card is just how loyal he is to Cleveland if the team can't compete?

[PaulieWal]

Interesting, that's the one thing I don't think he will do IMO. I don't think he has it in him to go around ring chasing like a Shaq at the end. For his own legacy I also hope he does stay in Cleveland and just try to win 1 there.

Maybe not. I'd hope he stayed in Cleveland too. But in the scenario where its clear the Cavs can longer compete for titles, I could see him deciding to move on to play for more shots at titles. He's accomplished everything there is to accomplish and I have to believe Lebron cares more about winning than just piling up more statistics. The wild card is just how loyal he is to Cleveland if the team can't compete?

I agree that at this point he doesn't care about stats and only wants to win more titles but he's an incredibly self-aware guy, sometimes to a fault. He knows that him going "ring chasing" on other teams to be a cog in somebody else's machine isn't going to help him much with his critics. It's much better for him to become Tim Duncan on the Cavs rather than going on other teams to be their post-prime Timmy.

Basically I agree with you, he does need to become a cog in a machine but he should find a way to do it in Cleveland somehow than elsewhere.

[microfib4thewin]

If the Warriors didn't exist I can still see Lebron getting another title as the lead guy. But since we don't live in that reality I believe his window has closed. This is his best year to win a title as a top player to further cement his legacy. Either he contiues to take the lead and go title-less the rest of his career or he gets a ring like '14 Duncan.

[RSCD3_]

So far ive done some +/- per 48 for the big 3 of the cavaliers

LeBron On: -18.0 PP48
LeBron Off: -44.7 PP48
LeBron On/Off: +26.7 PP48

Irving On: -23.1 PP48
Irving Off: -26.0 PP48
Irving On/Off: +2.9 PP48

Love On: -13.2 PP48
Love Off: -43.1 PP48
Love On/Off: +29.9 PP48

[Dr Spaceman]

This guy is such a hack and pushes his own narratives all the time. I still remember the "Steph Curry is an elite defender" video lol. He cherrypicks like a troll. Unbelievable.

How dare you critisize a guy with such incredible credentials? We are talking a guy who was a high school coach at a random school for 3 whole years after all.

Lol its unbelievable how many ppl take his word for gospel and are sharing his videos everywhere on social media. I dont even remember how he blew up. Funny he didnt make any video after game 1 considering how good Lebrons defense was there. Has he even made one video on Kyrie or Loves defense and how they can defend the pickandroll like a couple Realgmers?

It's terrible how all the naïve fans think he's a genius because he knows what "horns" is. The truth is he isn't any more qualified to break down film than the more active guys on this site and he certainly pails in comparison to even media guys like Lowe and especially someone like Thorpe. And yet by calling himself "coach" Nick he's got like this cult following.

It's embarrassing when he says stuff like "{gives up} the equivalent of a layup" when the play is happening right in front of our eyes. I mean I don't care if it's Klay Thompson, the Cavs are not losing the game on fadeaway 15 footers.