Peregrine01 wrote:therealbig3 wrote:Yeah it did feel like he was almost trying to convince people of how great Curry is, because he knows there are some polarizing opinions of him...imo, this is clearly the one he put the most effort into, as evidenced by the run time.
Still a great video, and I love the breakdown of Curry's off-ball impact the most.
But to me, he kind of glosses over the elephant in the room with Curry, and it's something I've harped on plenty: for all of his insane RS production and visible offensive impact...he HAS been successfully slowed down in the playoffs to a greater degree than other elite offensive anchors. And for the most part, the Warriors offense in the PS has NOT been overly impressive, at least in the GOAT context. They had one season where they dominated the PS offensively (2017, Durant's first year with the team), but range from below average to above average, but not spectacular, in every other year of their run (15-19).
And I think what happens is that people tend to kind of combine 2017 with all the other PS runs, and of course the offensive numbers now look awesome, because 2017 will bring everything up massively. And I notice that in the numbers that Taylor put up in the video, all of those stretches pretty much always include 2017. IMO, it's a clear outlier and had a lot to do with Kevin Durant as well.
So based on the RS yes, you can make a great case for Curry being the offensive GOAT. I would probably agree with that. But based on the PS, when you have other offensive anchors that have consistently led dominant PS offenses and Curry just hasn't, it's hard for me to actually put him there. LeBron and Nash among the more modern offensive engines were simply more effective in their approach come playoff time. Not only them, but so were guys like Dirk and Kobe in fact.
IMO, Curry is a borderline top 5 offensive anchor in the last 20 years, never mind all-time. Which is ok, he's still awesome, and I would ultimately still take him over Durant (although this is a much closer comparison than I previously thought), Harden, and CP3 as an offensive anchor. But he's got limited vision and is an inconsistent passer/playmaker in comparison to LeBron, Nash, Magic, and his shooting does come down to earth a bit in the PS when teams are more physical with him, and his overall decision-making isn't the greatest when he's pressured and it leads to a lot of turnovers as well. And defensively, I ultimately agree with the video that he's not a negative and is probably a small positive, but the video definitely doesn't highlight his negatives the way it could have. So ultimately, I can't take him over LeBron or Nash, and it's hard for me to take him over Kobe/Dirk/Shaq when they were simply more effective, even though their games may not have been as aesthetically pleasing.
One thing that has hurt Curry as a playmaker in comparison to a guy like Nash is that the Warriors teams weren't really designed for the spaced-out style that the Suns played. They really didn't have shooters outside of Curry, Klay and then later KD. Those guys shared the court with multiple non-shooters like Dray, Iggy, Livingston, Barnes, Bogut, Javale and Pachulia. This gummed things up by allowing defenses to crowd the crap out of Curry or simply deny him from even touching the ball. Compare this to Nash or Lebron who are surrounded by shooters all the time they're on the floor and can play pick and roll endlessly against a spaced out floor. This was a big reason why the Warriors offense always fell off a cliff when Curry went out - even during the Durant years.
I attribute a lot of the effectiveness of the denial defense to Kerr actually - he was so intent on maximizing Curry off the ball to get other guys going that he failed to see that his best offensive player wasn't even able to get the ball. Smart defensive teams like OKC, Houston and the Cavs noticed that and were able to punish the Warriors for their insistence on this style of play. This season has taken it to another level: the Warriors are facing this kind of defense on a nightly basis.
I think this is a fair point, and it can explain *some* of the quite massive difference between LeBron-centric and Nash-centric PS offenses and Curry-centric PS offenses, but I don't think you're being totally fair to the Warriors' supporting cast.
Firstly, you're calling Green, Iggy, and Barnes non-shooters, when Green was a 33% 3pt shooter from 14-18 (once he became a rotation player) before tailing off in 2019, and his value is far more than just his shooting ability and he really helps Curry a lot in terms of freeing him up with his screening, and is really the Warriors' main playmaker and decision-maker in space and relieves Curry of that responsibility a lot. Harden and Lillard started getting the same defensive attention as Curry in the PnR, but they didn't have the release valves that Curry had in Green. It's been proven that it's not as easy as Green makes it look, and in that sense, I don't think dismissing Green as a non-factor on offense is fair at all. I think he's a huge part of the success their offense has had.
Barnes shot 39% from 3 during 15-16. And 35% in the PS. Iggy was a consistent 35% 3pt shooter for pretty much his entire GS run. And was another high IQ player who was a capable ball handler and playmaker in space.
And THEN you add Klay on top of that, who's likely the 2nd greatest shooter in history, whose presence also helped Curry much in the same way that Curry's presence helped everyone else.
I don't really need to get into the Durant years.
Even prior to KD, I think Curry had a great mix of shooting, ball handling, decision-making, passing, and cutting next to him, who probably would have comprised a pretty good team independent of Curry, who he helped lift to championship-status. That's what a superstar does, but I'm not seeing outlier offensive impact here in the GOAT context.
And you mentioned LeBron and Nash, two guys who did enjoy great spacing on offense pretty consistently. LeBron though in Miami did play a big chunk of minutes next to Wade, who was certifiably not a floor spacer at all, worse than Iggy or Green in that respect. Bosh wasn't stepping out to the 3pt line consistently, and the Heat were also utilizing two big lineups much of the time with Bosh/Anthony or Bosh/Birdman. So I actually don't think LeBron had incredible spacing clearly better than what Curry had pre-KD when he was in Miami.
And the offenses that LeBron led in the PS when he was on the court in Miami:
2011: +4.7
2012: +10.7
2013: +9.9
2014: +9.6
Compared to Curry pre-KD:
2015: +3.3
2016: +5.7
He's more in line with a clearly disappointing 2011 Heat than what LeBron accomplished in the last 3 years of his Miami run.
And what about Dirk or Kobe? I think if you ask people that followed those teams, they would actually tell you that outside of the spacing they themselves provided by being as great as they were, their teams did not have optimal spacing, and that defensive lineups were often played at the expense of playing offensive players, and that the offense would rely on them to carry them in that sense. Which I don't think the Warriors ever had to worry about, because their best defensive players were their best offensive players, outside of Bogut, who played less than half the game and was really the only offensive liability that got major playing time in the PS. The lineup that played the most though was often Curry-Klay-Iggy-Barnes-Green, which was an optimal lineup on both sides of the ball for them. They didn't really have to sacrifice anything.
And if you look at the deep PS runs that Dirk or Kobe were a part of as the main offensive hubs of their teams:
03 Dirk: +11.0
06 Dirk: +7.8
11 Dirk: +9.4
08 Kobe: +8.1
09 Kobe: +8.4
10 Kobe: +8.4
And in Kobe's case specifically, he certainly played much stronger defensive teams during those runs than what Curry faced, relatively speaking.
But anyway, I've talked about this before, debates have gotten heated, that's not the road I want to go down nor am I trying to be repetitive...it's just that the Curry video came out, we're discussing it, and that's that. I have no problem with his inclusion, he has a case. I just wouldn't personally rate him as highly as Taylor or some others on this forum do.
I understand that you've also mentioned yourself that it is fair to point out that one could easily argue that 2015 as the first year of a young championship nucleus saw their system tested, but when they would have had the chance to prove themselves as a legit offensive force in the playoffs, injuries struck, and then they added Durant and so we'll never really know if their offense pre-KD would have been GOAT-worthy or not. That's fair also.
