James Harden is a superstar

[lukekarts]

Right now Harden is averaging +26 PPG on 60 TS%, +4 RPG and +5 APG. Only other players in history of the NBA who also did that: Bird (twice), LeBron (three times) and Jordan (four times). And these aren't empty stats, because Harden is leading Rockets to surprisingly good results: +3.5 SRS in tougher conference and 7th best ORTG with supporting cast of Asik, Lin, Parsons, Morris, Patterson. So if what Harden is doing isn't superstar like stuff, then there never was any superstar in the NBA.

Don't get me wrong, he's playing very, very well, but to establish himself fully as a superstar, he needs to do something in the playoffs.

[lorak]

Ok, fair enough, but for example when in your opinion Jordan became superstar? Was he in '85? '86? Later?

[90sAllDecade]

I think there's a difference between a contending or "super team star" and an individual superstar.

KG was a superstar on those mediocre Minnesota teams, young Jordan with the 80's Bulls, Hakeem on the early Rockets, early Cleveland LeBron etc.

To be on pace as an all time great or have HOF long term potential, I think perhaps team playoff success is maybe more of a prerequisite.

[branny]

Harden is a great player and with a better support cast, he could be leading a deep playoffs team

[UGA Hayes]

When consdering all of these numbers between Harden and Westbrook, I just think it's only fair to take into consideration supporting cast. Harden is doing a lot on a team with a bunch of people that the casual fan has never heard of. The 2nd leading scorer on the Rockets is Chandler Parsons who right now is averaging 14.7 points per game. I like him and all, but come on. Westbrook's supporting cast is far superior at nearly every position and having Durant on the floor with you during crunch time is certainly beneficial. Westbrook is flashy and he gambles. Sometimes you have the Dallas game from the other night and other times you have the Spurs game where he completely loses Tony Parker for the game winning jumper. OJ Mayo was practically playing for the Thunder the whole game while Wetbrook was getting torched by Collison. He is no defensive stopper. When he does make plays, he does so with probably the most physical gifts out of anybody that has ever played the PG position so it is jaw dropping and spectacular in fashion. That is what people remember. Not to mention the help defense behind him is infinitely better. Ibaka, Durant, Perkins, Sefolosha, Collison compard to just Asik

I don't totally agree with this even though I'm in the pro-Harden camp. I feel like this is the same argument that got Rose the MVP and is putting Carmelo in the MVP discussion when in reality there teammates graded out extremely well by statistical measures that aren't heavily weighted toward scoring and shooting. Plus Rose and Melo didn't make particularly notable statistical advances in the years there names were up for MVP discussion from there other years. Basically they just had teammates that were great at the other stuff, sort of like some of Harden's teammates. Morey is a stat guy and clearly has invested in guys that he thinks the traditional stats overlooked the guys he put around Harden and has done so in a way that he basically has a max slot open for next year.

[fatal9]

Don't get me wrong, he's playing very, very well, but to establish himself fully as a superstar, he needs to do something in the playoffs.

This is the only thing left at this point, because a few of the elite teams have made it look remarkably easy to stop Harden. I can just see him looking really bad in the playoffs if he goes through a little bit of a cold streak from three. I haven't watched him since Christmas though so IDK if he is making adjustments to his game, but that's my only bit of skepticism left. He's a top 10 player comfortably though, and him being the better player over Westbrook should be starting to become more and more obvious to people now. I'd say Harden right now is around, but likely below, Brandon Roy level (who was a borderline superstar on his way to becoming one), different style of course (remains to be seen how Harden's current shot distribution holds up in the playoffs), and playing in a more raw stat friendly system.

[OptimusOne6]

Don't get me wrong, he's playing very, very well, but to establish himself fully as a superstar, he needs to do something in the playoffs.

This is the only thing left at this point, because a few of the elite teams have made it look remarkably easy to stop Harden. I can just see him looking really bad in the playoffs if he goes through a little bit of a cold streak from three. I haven't watched him since Christmas though so IDK if he is making adjustments to his game, but that's my only bit of skepticism left. He's a top 10 player comfortably though, and him being the better player over Westbrook should be starting to become more and more obvious to people now. I'd say Harden right now is around, but likely below, Brandon Roy level (who was a borderline superstar on his way to becoming one), different style of course (remains to be seen how Harden's current shot distribution holds up in the playoffs), and playing in a more raw stat friendly system.

It has to do with the Rockets speeding up their pace and playing with a higher tempo recently. Like I said, I'm very concerned and I really question his ability to take over a game when defenses are set and when the game is slowed down and that is why I don't think he is better than Westbrook because I trust Westbrook more then.

[TheProfessor]

Lebron was not a Superstar his first 3 seasons in the league, Kyrie Irving is not a Superstar, Blake Griffen is not a Superstar. A Superstar is a player that plays above the level of an all-star for an extended period of time while leading his team to success, that would not be replicated without them. Is James Harden playing like a Superstar? Yes. Is James Harden a Super star in the making yeah? YES. IS he a superstar? NO. Produce like this for 2 more years and then he can earn the title of SuperStar

[G35]

Lebron was not a Superstar his first 3 seasons in the league, Kyrie Irving is not a Superstar, Blake Griffen is not a Superstar. A Superstar is a player that plays above the level of an all-star for an extended period of time while leading his team to success, that would not be replicated without them. Is James Harden playing like a Superstar? Yes. Is James Harden a Super star in the making yeah? YES. IS he a superstar? NO. Produce like this for 2 more years and then he can earn the title of SuperStar

My thinking goes something like this. A superstar is not made in one season unless they are Michael Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Dr. J, David Robinson type players and those don't grow on tree's. Unless he is doing something unique on the court (and I don't see that) then he does not belong with Lebron, KD, and maybe Kobe. There aren't any other superstars right now. Not Melo, not Dwight, not CP3.

Being a superstar requires a level of consistent elite performance that few can maintain. And imo, efficiency isn't the holy grail of superstardom. I don't ever remember Adrian Dantley, Reggie Miller, or Kevin Mchale being labeled a superstar this soon if ever in their career's.

Harden has to do more statistically over a long period of time AND he has do something in the playoff's.....

[Doctor MJ]

I think there's a difference between a contending or "super team star" and an individual superstar.

KG was a superstar on those mediocre Minnesota teams, young Jordan with the 80's Bulls, Hakeem on the early Rockets, early Cleveland LeBron etc.

To be on pace as an all time great or have HOF long term potential, I think perhaps team playoff success is maybe more of a prerequisite.

Garnett was clearly on pace to be an all time great, and was a lock for the Hall in Minnesota.

[Doctor MJ]

Lebron was not a Superstar his first 3 seasons in the league, Kyrie Irving is not a Superstar, Blake Griffen is not a Superstar. A Superstar is a player that plays above the level of an all-star for an extended period of time while leading his team to success, that would not be replicated without them. Is James Harden playing like a Superstar? Yes. Is James Harden a Super star in the making yeah? YES. IS he a superstar? NO. Produce like this for 2 more years and then he can earn the title of SuperStar

It's just weird to me how people are trying to keep drawing this line in the sand.

On one level, I respect it if you say "Hey 'star' means popular, and Harden's not a household name yet.", and I do understand a "wait and see" approach, but by any normal standard LeBron was a superstar long before you were willing to give him the title.

[Doctor MJ]

Lebron was not a Superstar his first 3 seasons in the league, Kyrie Irving is not a Superstar, Blake Griffen is not a Superstar. A Superstar is a player that plays above the level of an all-star for an extended period of time while leading his team to success, that would not be replicated without them. Is James Harden playing like a Superstar? Yes. Is James Harden a Super star in the making yeah? YES. IS he a superstar? NO. Produce like this for 2 more years and then he can earn the title of SuperStar

My thinking goes something like this. A superstar is not made in one season unless they are Michael Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Dr. J, David Robinson type players and those don't grow on tree's. Unless he is doing something unique on the court (and I don't see that) then he does not belong with Lebron, KD, and maybe Kobe. There aren't any other superstars right now. Not Melo, not Dwight, not CP3.

Being a superstar requires a level of consistent elite performance that few can maintain. And imo, efficiency isn't the holy grail of superstardom. I don't ever remember Adrian Dantley, Reggie Miller, or Kevin Mchale being labeled a superstar this soon if ever in their career's.

Harden has to do more statistically over a long period of time AND he has do something in the playoff's.....

Chris Paul isn't a superstar to you? Well that's just you being quirky dude.

[lukekarts]

Ok, fair enough, but for example when in your opinion Jordan became superstar? Was he in '85? '86? Later?

It's hard for me to accurately say - its not like with Harden where I'm watching it happen, I was just a baby when Jordan came into the league.

In retrospect, Jordan was a more special talent than Harden, that was immediately obvious. His rookie season was like Harden's current; by the time he'd finished the 86-87 season he was proving he was a superstar.

[Keshavarzi]

This thread has turned into the discussion of various posters personal opinion on what the label superstar means.

Fact is Harden is a top 5 player in the NBA right now. Idgaf what he or other players have/haven't done in the past or what their reputation is.

Its okay for a player to live off his reputation but you knock a guy who is top 5 right now just because he hasn't accomplished everything yet? There's something wrong with that logic.

[rrravenred]

A good playmaker gives his team the best shot at the basket when they're in control of the ball, whether that's them taking the shot or others. But the key thing is that they RECOGNISE what the best shot on the floor is and have the discipline to not make the assumption that because they have the ball, they should necessarily be taking the shot. Magic is king in this category (with Bird and Nash close on his heels).

Interesting definition of playmaker then. I've always thought playmaker was just setting others up for good shots and stuff, nothing about taking shots yourself.

I don't think it's a particular coincidence that the best offenses of all time generally had high scoring efficiency playmakers at the helm (though of course supporting cast has a huge effect).

[Krodis]

Harden with his 11th straight game of 25 or more.

[rockmanslim]

This dude brings it every night, starting to take it for granted.

[tsherkin]

26 ppg at 60% TS and 116 ORTG is starting to get a little difficult to ignore, especially with his playmaking ability, this much is true.

[90sAllDecade]

Garnett was clearly on pace to be an all time great, and was a lock for the Hall in Minnesota.

Never said he wasn't, I said he was a superstar and was referring to early in his career as one, ala Harden. In the early years he hadn't proven himself yet all time or HOF, like Harden.

But I disagree he'd be a lock. If he never got to the playoffs or won a series he'd be looked at like Webber, Vince Carter, Mitch Richmond (minus playoff successes during their careers). Guys would could eventually be voted in on individual merit, but not surefire without a doubt locks like Drexler, Malone etc.

[Doctor MJ]

Garnett was clearly on pace to be an all time great, and was a lock for the Hall in Minnesota.

Never said he wasn't, I said he was a superstar and was referring to early in his career as one, ala Harden. In the early years he hadn't proven himself yet all time or HOF, like Harden.

But I disagree he'd be a lock. If he never got to the playoffs or won a series he'd be looked at like Webber, Vince Carter, Mitch Richmond (minus playoff successes during their careers). Guys would could eventually be voted in on individual merit, but not surefire without a doubt locks like Drexler, Malone etc.

I'd have to agree that before '03-04 Garnett was not a HOF lock. I would say though that by '02-03 he'd already become orders or magnitude better than the other guys you mention as not being locks.