Greatest Peaks series (Thinking Basketball/Ben Taylor)

[AdagioPace]

Do folks see Dirk as an elite off-ball player? Speed kills off-ball, and Dirk ain't got it (Shaq used strength, not speed, but the point was the same, generating space). I view Dirk largely as an on-ball player.

Dirk was excellent at screening and moving without the ball, and a lot of what Taylor pointed out with Curry in terms of gravity applies to Dirk as well, his presence and his activity created a lot of openings for teammates. Dirk also made the stretch 4 such a popular concept, by pulling an opposing big out of the paint and opening things up inside for perimeter players because of his threat to hit the 3 ball, which is more off ball value.

Yeah, Dirk was elite off ball imo.

The big difference that I see us having is on him moving without the ball. I think Dirk was decidedly mediocre in that department overall. When he did it he was good (not great imo), but he didn't do it very often (availability is the best ability and all that). I also put touch passing into off-ball play, another area I don't think Dirk was particularly good at.

A very summarized version of my assessment for guys mentioned:
Bird - Elite shooting (or finishing), Elite touch passing, good movement (this can be accomplished through strength like Shaq, perhaps more appropriately called space-finding or some such thing?)
Curry - Elite shooting, Elite movement, good touch passing
Reggie - Elite shooting, Elite movement, ??? touch passing (would need to evaluate that a bit)
Dirk - Elite shooting, decent movement, mediocre touch passing

Plus a bit of an elite iso-player bonus that keeps defender attention as a 4th category that they would all receive relative to more 'role-player' types.

talking about Dirk, I don't agree with having "mobility" and "coming off screens" as the most defining trait of an off-ball player. This definition strictly applies to PGs and SGs.
For example Curry, who's often seen as the prototype of an off-ball player had one of the highest "average sec per touch" in the game during the '13-'14 season. He's still a PG after all.
But he's no JJ Redick either.....

I find a Anthony Davis kind of player more "off-ball" than Curry, considering his defensive value too.
Going back to Dirk, of course, he was more ball dominant and posted up way more often during the late 00s, but I was curious about his '13-'14 numbers (the oldest available on NBA.com) and he was in the bottom half, along with Zaza Pachulia and Joel Anthony in terms of average sec per touch, and still bringing a lot of value.

PS: I would add that Dirk doesn't need to run around like a crazy mouse because the search for space, good looks and opportunities is way easier for him than it is for Curry.

[Jaivl]

Why did you ignore his playoff on/off being on par with shaq.

Because it's not. It's literally half (+8.0 vs +16.5, 15-17 vs 00-02).

Why did you ignore his scoring being way more resilient than larry bird?

Larry Bird is not exactly the paragon of scoring resiliency, is he? His dropoffs are more akin to a guy like Garnett than to ATG scorers (except Durant himself).

Why did you ignore him leading better offenses than kd without kd OR klay?

It is true, BUT he does not show it on a fair light.

And let me show you very quickly the problem with such small sample sizes:

2015 + 2016 PO: Curry ON, Klay OFF: 108.7 ORtg (322 min)
2017 PO: Curry ON, Durant and Klay OFF: 130 ORtg (58 min)

Anyway, it's still weird to control for Klay instead of the #2 most impactful player in the Warriors, isn't it?

2015 + 2016 PO: Curry ON, Green OFF: 102.2 ORtg (229 min)
2017 PO: Curry ON, Durant and Green OFF: 106.0 ORtg (250 min)

Just for comparison's sake, the equivalent numbers for Durant:

2014 + 2016 PO: Durant ON, Westbrook OFF: 97.6 ORtg (252 min)
2017 PO: Durant ON, Curry and Green OFF: 111.3 ORtg (31 min)

And these are just naked numbers. There's a hell of a lot of context to apply there. Sample sizes are minuscule, Durant had quite worse offensive teammates in OKC and played tougher defenses, but when they played together it was clear that Curry was the most impactful one... etc etc.

[70sFan]

Conclusion from this video - Curry is consistent hand checker

On a more serious note - it's really good video, one of the most nuanced one with tons of details. I like the off-ball game analysis, but I also like how Ben described his passing and handles - they are excellent, but not historically great.

I also think that his defensive breakdown paints very mixed picture - it shows that Curry has great anticipation and that he usually gives strong effort (which I view similary in my obseravtions) but he's also overly physical and it often leads him to overcommit or make dumb fouls. I know that refs allow small guys like Curry to be more physical, but let's be honest - by modern officiating most of defensive plays Ben showed should be called a foul.

Unrelated to this particular video - I wish he spent as much time talking about Magic's defense for example, because looking at these videos you make come to conclusion that Magic was weak and Curry was clearly positive, which is not something I'd agree with. Magic's effort was sometimes iffy in RS, but in playoffs he was usually clear positive defender and with his size and smarts, he was clearly more valuable than Curry.

[GYK]

Just watched. By far the longest video(he does have a lot of Curry/Warriors videos. I think he once said Dray was better than Durant). Very much a love letter but nevertheless he understands Curry’s skillset, the Warriors system and Draymond was featured here as if he was a mandatory mention in the Curry breakdown. Ball handling but more than anything the best off ball player ever.
As said many times replacing Durant(I’m very happy they are separate now and fans can enjoy them again without their “you came first” loyalties) should have never been the option for the Dubs if weren’t for a superstar to overpower teams. Iggy and Shaun was the players needed to replace. Their three passers for their off ball backcourt was what was special. Even without Klay more passer would be able to get more cutters looks. The team Offensive rating without other non Curry stars is often highlighted but those stars were replaced with ball movers. This time the team went for talent(in the sense of individual ability) and it’s not necessarily what this system needs of low usage players. Remember this is a tweaked triangle offense if anything.
I didn’t like the PS breakdown. It completely said the West wasn’t a problem and his teams winning series without him should be ignored as those teams were weak. It ignores that a team that we knew would inevitably win wouldn’t still win earlier rounds without one superstar while having the others. We make a big deal about the playoffs until we don’t(in other videos PS drop off is mentioned but for Curry and Bird there’s allows for excuses but not for other players).
I also don’t think he’s scalable. I think just like Lebron a team that has Steph has to play Curry ball to have his impact. Off ball play is seen as selfless but it’s just as time consuming especially when there’s just one screen runner(see every other screen runner ever).
What always amazed me was what changed from Jackson to Kerr. His on ball workload was traditional lead guard like. Kerr let him lose off ball. In the RS it did force him to play way less minutes as it’s tiring but in the 16-28 span of a PS he could play most of the game.

Great video. Well detailed. Kerr deserves far more credit than the GB is giving him, as this Curry was absolutely not how he played pre Kerr(not that he couldn’t but that he didn’t). Bob probably deserves less credit in understanding what made his team special as you look at today’s rosters skillset and see less ball movers(Tomas is just out there being Dubs Shaun with spot up 3).
I don’t know why Harden didn’t get a video but glad at least 3 of the 4 modern generational’s got one(Lebron/Durant/Steph/Harden).

[Peregrine01]

I think this is a fair point, and it can explain *some* of the quite massive difference between LeBron-centric and Nash-centric PS offenses and Curry-centric PS offenses, but I don't think you're being totally fair to the Warriors' supporting cast.

Firstly, you're calling Green, Iggy, and Barnes non-shooters, when Green was a 33% 3pt shooter from 14-18 (once he became a rotation player) before tailing off in 2019, and his value is far more than just his shooting ability and he really helps Curry a lot in terms of freeing him up with his screening, and is really the Warriors' main playmaker and decision-maker in space and relieves Curry of that responsibility a lot. Harden and Lillard started getting the same defensive attention as Curry in the PnR, but they didn't have the release valves that Curry had in Green. It's been proven that it's not as easy as Green makes it look, and in that sense, I don't think dismissing Green as a non-factor on offense is fair at all. I think he's a huge part of the success their offense has had.

Barnes shot 39% from 3 during 15-16. And 35% in the PS. Iggy was a consistent 35% 3pt shooter for pretty much his entire GS run. And was another high IQ player who was a capable ball handler and playmaker in space.

And THEN you add Klay on top of that, who's likely the 2nd greatest shooter in history, whose presence also helped Curry much in the same way that Curry's presence helped everyone else.

I don't really need to get into the Durant years.

Even prior to KD, I think Curry had a great mix of shooting, ball handling, decision-making, passing, and cutting next to him, who probably would have comprised a pretty good team independent of Curry, who he helped lift to championship-status. That's what a superstar does, but I'm not seeing outlier offensive impact here in the GOAT context.

And you mentioned LeBron and Nash, two guys who did enjoy great spacing on offense pretty consistently. LeBron though in Miami did play a big chunk of minutes next to Wade, who was certifiably not a floor spacer at all, worse than Iggy or Green in that respect. Bosh wasn't stepping out to the 3pt line consistently, and the Heat were also utilizing two big lineups much of the time with Bosh/Anthony or Bosh/Birdman. So I actually don't think LeBron had incredible spacing clearly better than what Curry had pre-KD when he was in Miami.

Not dismissing Green on offense at all - where I think he has truly unique chemistry with Curry but he's just not a spacer. All the good defenses that the Warriors played in the playoffs were predicated on really one thing: get the ball out of Curry's hands and force those other guys (namely Barnes, Iggy and Draymond) to hit open shots. The Warriors were built to have highly intelligent players who can make the right reads to catalyze the off-ball havoc that Curry creates and not a deep roster of shooting (outside of course Curry and Klay). Stingy playoff defenses that sold out to smother Curry off-the-ball had great success - plus, it wore him down.

It was a lot easier to get the ball out of a player's hands if he never had it to begin with and for this I place a lot of the blame on Kerr, who usually was too stubborn to see that. So enamored with his idea of how basketball should be played that he didn't realize that he also had one of the greatest on-ball players of all time. The Dubs really turned around the 15 WCSF, 15 Finals and 16 WCF by playing Curry more in an on-ball roll and having him play pick and roll with Draymond.

Anyway, I have no gripes with the ORTG data comparing Bron and Curry in the playoffs but don't think it's fair to highlight just two of Curry's playoff runs. I don't think how anyone can see the data that Ben put out and think that he's not an all-time great playoff performer.

[Clyde Frazier]

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[LukaTheGOAT]

Why did you ignore his playoff on/off being on par with shaq. Why did you ignore his scoring being way more resilient than larry bird? Why did you ignore him leading better offenses than kd without kd OR klay?

THe thunder's playofs offenses were better without westbrook than they were without durant.
KD without westbrook or curry:
https://youtu.be/JJ4ub0dLFMU?t=572
Curry without KD OR KLAY
https://youtu.be/bvTPxCOfjdE?t=2059

How is Durant "closer" to Curry than you thought after watching videos proving curry's a much more valuable playoff player, is much more resilient, and is a much better playoff scorer whose led better offenses on his own(119) than durant "led"(ignore westbrook's being more effecient by box score and better by +/-).

What part of the video had evidence that curry was worse than you rthught or durant was better?

Using just raw on/off is not a great way to evaluate impact, as unlike PIPM and RAPM, it does not try to adjust for the teammates you are playing for. And furthermore, if we just follow raw on/off, a past peak David Robinson is better than Shaq, Lebron, etc. It is notable but not the only thing.

Also, I think people are focusing on Curry's playoff woes, because they often consider him when he is injured, and the on/off he used for Curry was when he came back from injuries I believe.

Curry has been a better scorer than Bird, I don't disagree with that. But I still don't come away feeling like Curry is arguably the GOAT offensive player; I think more of a fringe top 5 case is fine for him in that regard, but there are people who have proven to have led better 3 year offenses like Lebron and Nash, who don't put into the GOAT offensive player category by Taylor.

I have my reservations about Curry and I am not so easily going to thrust him into such a special tier, like that. Heck, Ben's own Backpicks BPM model doesn't even think Curry peaked higher than Durant in the PS based on their GSW (I believe Curry is better, I'm just noting this). Let alone, the fact that Lebron, MJ, Magic, all peaked higher in the PS according to it.

Where do you think would be appropriate for Curry as an offensive great?

curry kills stats like pipm too? his 17, 19, and 15 all great runs according to plus minus stuff.

Okay. But durant, nash, and bird all had injury issues too. Only players who didn't were lebron and magic.

what? Curry peaks higher in like all the playoff stats and like ben said in the video, the sample is biased towards KD because of competition
https://youtu.be/JJ4ub0dLFMU?t=1368
https://youtu.be/bvTPxCOfjdE?t=1976
Curry ranks higher in every single stat DESPITE playing tougher compeition according to ben. And the only year in that sample where kd scored higher, thats basiclaly all becuase of durant playing the easy rounds and curry playinf the hard ones. In the series where both shared the court curry pretty clearly outplayed him despite being injured. Between outplaying him with an injury in 2016, being far and away more impactful in 2017 end to end, nearly winning without him in 2019, what more does curry have to do to show he's clearly the better player? in 2020, curry's carrying the worst team in the league to a winning record while the nets chug along unaffected by kd's absence.

Lebron isn't a goat level offensive player? That doesn't make any sense. Lebron has like the best 2 year scoring stretch ever in 09-10 and according to ben's own video, 12-14 lebron without wade killed mj's best stretches. Ben also says lebron is one of the best creators in history. How can someone with a case as the goat scoring and top 5 creator not have a case for offensive goathood?



I think curry's clearly better than bird talking realtive era but not sure how he compares to magic relative to competition. I put jordan and magic above him probably. Nash might compare offense onl. I think in terms of raw ability, only lebron's clearly better on offense.

video shows curry's bpm higher? i agree lebron, jordan and magic proabablt better on offense. I don't understand "top 5 in the last 20 years"

I was referring to Ben, who doesn't seem to think Lebron has that much of an argument for the offensive GOAT, not you.

But no, KD peaked higher in Backpicks BPM in the PS, I have access to his stats page.

And Steph's PIPM is good, but someone like Kawhi from 17-19, looks better during this PS span (he missed 18 but my point stands), then Curry. Steph looks good but his peak is still very much in question to me. I think KD might've been Steph during this 17-19 stretch in PIPM too.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Why did you ignore his playoff on/off being on par with shaq. Why did you ignore his scoring being way more resilient than larry bird? Why did you ignore him leading better offenses than kd without kd OR klay?

THe thunder's playofs offenses were better without westbrook than they were without durant.
KD without westbrook or curry:
https://youtu.be/JJ4ub0dLFMU?t=572
Curry without KD OR KLAY
https://youtu.be/bvTPxCOfjdE?t=2059

How is Durant "closer" to Curry than you thought after watching videos proving curry's a much more valuable playoff player, is much more resilient, and is a much better playoff scorer whose led better offenses on his own(119) than durant "led"(ignore westbrook's being more effecient by box score and better by +/-).

What part of the video had evidence that curry was worse than you rthught or durant was better?

Using just raw on/off is not a great way to evaluate impact, as unlike PIPM and RAPM, it does not try to adjust for the teammates you are playing for. And furthermore, if we just follow raw on/off, a past peak David Robinson is better than Shaq, Lebron, etc. It is notable but not the only thing.

Also, I think people are focusing on Curry's playoff woes, because they often consider him when he is injured, and the on/off he used for Curry was when he came back from injuries I believe.

Curry has been a better scorer than Bird, I don't disagree with that. But I still don't come away feeling like Curry is arguably the GOAT offensive player; I think more of a fringe top 5 case is fine for him in that regard, but there are people who have proven to have led better 3 year offenses like Lebron and Nash, who don't put into the GOAT offensive player category by Taylor.

I have my reservations about Curry and I am not so easily going to thrust him into such a special tier, like that. Heck, Ben's own Backpicks BPM model doesn't even think Curry peaked higher than Durant in the PS based on their GSW (I believe Curry is better, I'm just noting this). Let alone, the fact that Lebron, MJ, Magic, all peaked higher in the PS according to it.

Where do you think would be appropriate for Curry as an offensive great?

curry kills stats like pipm too? his 17, 19, and 15 all great runs according to plus minus stuff.

Okay. But durant, nash, and bird all had injury issues too. Only players who didn't were lebron and magic.

what? Curry peaks higher in like all the playoff stats and like ben said in the video, the sample is biased towards KD because of competition
https://youtu.be/JJ4ub0dLFMU?t=1368
https://youtu.be/bvTPxCOfjdE?t=1976
Curry ranks higher in every single stat DESPITE playing tougher compeition according to ben. And the only year in that sample where kd scored higher, thats basiclaly all becuase of durant playing the easy rounds and curry playinf the hard ones. In the series where both shared the court curry pretty clearly outplayed him despite being injured. Between outplaying him with an injury in 2016, being far and away more impactful in 2017 end to end, nearly winning without him in 2019, what more does curry have to do to show he's clearly the better player? in 2020, curry's carrying the worst team in the league to a winning record while the nets chug along unaffected by kd's absence.

Lebron isn't a goat level offensive player? That doesn't make any sense. Lebron has like the best 2 year scoring stretch ever in 09-10 and according to ben's own video, 12-14 lebron without wade killed mj's best stretches. Ben also says lebron is one of the best creators in history. How can someone with a case as the goat scoring and top 5 creator not have a case for offensive goathood?



I think curry's clearly better than bird talking realtive era but not sure how he compares to magic relative to competition. I put jordan and magic above him probably. Nash might compare offense onl. I think in terms of raw ability, only lebron's clearly better on offense.

video shows curry's bpm higher? i agree lebron, jordan and magic proabablt better on offense. I don't understand "top 5 in the last 20 years"

I was referring to Ben, who doesn't seem to think Lebron has that much of an argument for the offensive GOAT, not you.

But no, KD peaked higher in Backpicks BPM in the PS, I have access to his stats page.

And Steph's PIPM is good, but someone like Kawhi from 17-19, looks better during this PS span (he missed 18 but my point stands), then Curry. Steph looks good but his peak is still very much in question to me. I think KD might've been higher than Steph during this 17-19 stretch in PIPM too. I know I am in the minority here, but I actually do think Kawhi peaked higher in the PS than Steph, but that is not what the discussion is about.

The point is Steph has some dropoff, and I have still questioning how much I credit it due to injuries as compared to competition.

[Goudelock]

Well, the series is basically over, only the ranking episode left.
And I have to say that I find Taylor excusing the issues of rather revolutionary players like Curry and Garnett a bit annoying.
I talked to him about Duncan's injuries having an impact on his "against strong defenses numbers" and Timmy having a higher gear in playoffs not showing up in those numbers, and he wasn't doing justice. All he said was "you're not getting what I'm doing", then did the exact same thing for Curry in the last episode. Literally.
TBH, he lost a bit of credit about his objectivity for me when he was doing a Q&A on Discord because he said "after watching so many KG and Duncan videos in quick successions, I was like -hey KG's not doing like that-". I can literally do the same for Timmy but I know that having a mindset like that will have a foregone and probably tainted conclusion.
This is not about me being a Duncan fan and Taylor seeing things differently. He has been either too apologetic or too excusing of his favourite and/or rather revolutionary players ever since Robinson episode.

He spent more time on interpolating things outside of David Robinson's actual peak seasons instead of actually talking about them.
Then Garnett episode was "he's better on a better team" and scoring is rather overrated. Not if you're on a team like 2000s Minnesota Timberwolves.
Then Durant's episode was "he's tall and he can function next to a better scorer than himself".
Then Curry's episode was another excusing episode. The episode ends with "Curry's scoring per 75 in the playoffs without KD&Klay", mate that accounts for one seventh of Curry's entire play time. It is not significant enough to make such a claim.

I've generally liked the videos but I can't really argue with what you posted lol. You can definitely tell who Taylor likes and dislikes when you watch the video. His entire Garnett video was great and all, but he seemed to hand-wave Garnett's lack of scoring as 'not his fault' even though that's probably a reason Garnett's Wolves weren't as successful as they could have been. Meanwhile, he didn't get an episode, but the potshots at Wilt Chamberlain were kind of forced.

[Texas Chuck]

Why is Dirk being called a mediocre touch passer? I mean did we not watch the Dallas offense for years and years and years? Are we just counting assists? Dallas had elite ball movement that was predicated on two things:

1. Dirk's ability to draw defense either on-ball or as the most dangerous screener in NBA history or just standing on the perimeter and his willingness and clarity in making the right pass at the right time every time. No he wasn't any kind of playmaker, but he saw where doubles were coming from, understood defensive rotations and picked out the right pass over and over. The king of never turning the ball over. From 2006 on he averaged less than one bad pass a game and that's with a guy who was touching the ball on basically every possession.

2. Rick's spacing, and Kidd and other veterans who consistently made the extra pass(another reason Dirk's assist numbers are low).


I'm sorry, but my brain is breaking at the concept that Dirk was a ball-stopper.

[Statlanta]

I liked the series.

My favorite episodes were Larry Bird and Shaquille O'Neal.

I didn't really learn much from the post-Robinson episodes since there is tape and reliable stats on those guys.

I feel like ElGee could be objective, definitely felt it when describing Magic, MJ, and Kareem but could go into bouts of favoritism like in Bird, Garnett and Robinson.

[70sFan]

Why is Dirk being called a mediocre touch passer? I mean did we not watch the Dallas offense for years and years and years? Are we just counting assists? Dallas had elite ball movement that was predicated on two things:

1. Dirk's ability to draw defense either on-ball or as the most dangerous screener in NBA history or just standing on the perimeter and his willingness and clarity in making the right pass at the right time every time. No he wasn't any kind of playmaker, but he saw where doubles were coming from, understood defensive rotations and picked out the right pass over and over. The king of never turning the ball over. From 2006 on he averaged less than one bad pass a game and that's with a guy who was touching the ball on basically every possession.

2. Rick's spacing, and Kidd and other veterans who consistently made the extra pass(another reason Dirk's assist numbers are low).


I'm sorry, but my brain is breaking at the concept that Dirk was a ball-stopper.

I'd never call Dirk aa ball-stopper, but he didn't have elite vision (or even good relative to other offensive anchors). His strength as a passer is that he never overthinks and usually makes passes he should, but you won't find many examples of him playmaking in dynamic way.

[70sFan]

I think that Ben didn't show many of his biases for most of this project, but I see the clear difference in Bird/Curry episodes in comparsion to Magic. You can simply feel that Ben prefers their styles of play.

[Texas Chuck]

Why is Dirk being called a mediocre touch passer? I mean did we not watch the Dallas offense for years and years and years? Are we just counting assists? Dallas had elite ball movement that was predicated on two things:

1. Dirk's ability to draw defense either on-ball or as the most dangerous screener in NBA history or just standing on the perimeter and his willingness and clarity in making the right pass at the right time every time. No he wasn't any kind of playmaker, but he saw where doubles were coming from, understood defensive rotations and picked out the right pass over and over. The king of never turning the ball over. From 2006 on he averaged less than one bad pass a game and that's with a guy who was touching the ball on basically every possession.

2. Rick's spacing, and Kidd and other veterans who consistently made the extra pass(another reason Dirk's assist numbers are low).


I'm sorry, but my brain is breaking at the concept that Dirk was a ball-stopper.

I'd never call Dirk aa ball-stopper, but he didn't have elite vision (or even good relative to other offensive anchors). His strength as a passer is that he never overthinks and usually makes passes he should, but you won't find many examples of him playmaking in dynamic way.

I agree. I believe I posted "No he wasn't any kind of a playmaker" in fact. But this idea that the best ball movement team north of San Antonio based around Dirk was that effective with Dirk as a ball stopper just doesn't jive hence my response.

Unless he was just being literal that Dirk didn't make the touch passes a la Magic/Bird, but that wouldn't make sense because that's just not something that comes up in games nearly enough to have any relevance. Even the best of all-time at that specific skill didn't utilize it enough for it to be a major factor in evaluation.

[70sFan]

Let's start to summarize the project:

1. What video changed your perception the most about given player?
2. Which video is the best overall (however you define it)>
3. Which video is your least favorite?
4. Did this project change your perception about 10 greatest peaks post-merger?
5. Who had the best peak ever after watching the project?
6. Pick one player from any era you'd like to see with similar video.

[eminence]

Why is Dirk being called a mediocre touch passer? I mean did we not watch the Dallas offense for years and years and years? Are we just counting assists? Dallas had elite ball movement that was predicated on two things:

1. Dirk's ability to draw defense either on-ball or as the most dangerous screener in NBA history or just standing on the perimeter and his willingness and clarity in making the right pass at the right time every time. No he wasn't any kind of playmaker, but he saw where doubles were coming from, understood defensive rotations and picked out the right pass over and over. The king of never turning the ball over. From 2006 on he averaged less than one bad pass a game and that's with a guy who was touching the ball on basically every possession.

2. Rick's spacing, and Kidd and other veterans who consistently made the extra pass(another reason Dirk's assist numbers are low).


I'm sorry, but my brain is breaking at the concept that Dirk was a ball-stopper.

Nobody said ball-stopper, I said mediocre (on the scale of big minute NBA players).

Rough hierarchy (trying to stick with star forwards/bigs to keep overall game from influencing rankings):
Bird/Jokic are elite touch passers.
LeBron/Walton are good touch passers.
Pippen/KG are above average touch passers.
Dr.J/Robinson are mediocre touch passers.
McHale/Moses are poor touch passers.
Then there's another tier of truly bad passers that not many star players are a member of.

Obviously my opinions are just that opinions, and some are more well-informed than others - for instance much of my McHale ranking is rep-driven, though from what I've seen I'd be truly surprised if he ranked much higher than that.

Where would you say Dirk fits on that scale? If you want to classify him as above average that's fine with me, but I don't think you should consider it so outlandish for me to call him mediocre either. If you think the scale isn't valid - why?

I appear to give more weight to touch passing as a skill than you do. I view it similarly to spacing type effects where though it's lower impact on most possessions it piles up value over the course of a game because it impacts almost every offensive possession in a way that on-ball player never does.

[Texas Chuck]

Nobody said ball-stopper, I said mediocre (on the scale of big minute NBA players).

Rough hierarchy (trying to stick with star forwards/bigs to keep overall game from influencing rankings):
Bird/Jokic are elite touch passers.
LeBron/Walton are good touch passers.
Pippen/KG are above average touch passers.
Dr.J/Robinson are mediocre touch passers.
McHale/Moses are poor touch passers.
Then there's another tier of truly bad passers that not many star players are a member of.

Obviously my opinions are just that opinions, and some are more well-informed than others - for instance much of my McHale ranking is rep-driven, though from what I've seen I'd be truly surprised if he ranked much higher than that.

Where would you say Dirk fits on that scale? If you want to classify him as above average that's fine with me, but I don't think you should consider it so outlandish for me to call him mediocre either. If you think the scale isn't valid - why?

I appear to give more weight to touch passing as a skill than you do. I view it similarly to spacing type effects where though it's lower impact on most possessions it piles up value over the course of a game because it impacts almost every offensive possession in a way that on-ball player never does.

I guess I'm confused what you mean. By touch passer I'm guessing here, but think you mean keeping the ball moving? If you mean that he rarely just catches and immediately moves the ball to the next guy, sure I agree that wasn't his role, but that isn't what Jokic or Lebron do either and you have them at the top of the list? I wouldn't say that makes him a mediocre passer though.

Dirk isn't a playmaker. Among elite offensive players I would have him way down near the bottom of the list. But as a passer I would disagree pretty strongly with that characterization. You don't have to make risky passes to be very effective. John Stockton wasn't Jokic or Bird or Nash or Lebron in terms of just wowing you, but he put the pass in the perfect spot at the perfect time over and over and over and over and over and over. Chris Paul much the same way. So are they good passers or poor ones? I think we'd all say they were both great passers.

[PistolPeteJR]

I liked the video overall, but did anyone else get the impression that it came across as comparatively apologetic to Curry’s flaws? I think this would make sense since it IS clear that Ben favors curry.

With that being said unlike someone ala Durant, I don’t think it matters that much with Curry as he still has the impact to solidly deserve a video. However it does make me a little hesitant to put his offensive peak at the level of a MJ, Nash, Magic, etc.

Absolutely.

I was watching the Curry breakdown, and at one point I started to think to myself, "People were complaining about Ben really focusing on MJ's flaws in Jordan's peak video...", which wasn't true, "...but he really seems to be brushing off a number of Curry's flaws."

Curry's video is 36 minutes long, significantly longer than anyone's else's. I get his offense is otherworldly and all of that fun stuff, and respect is given where it is due, for sure. I also understand that his defense is not atrocious.

I don't want to call Ben biased at all; instead, I think the key to what I perceived as his favouring Curry is his notion of scalability. While it should carry some weight in comparing players, it's got some significant flaws, which have been voiced a few different times in this thread.

[eminence]

Let's start to summarize the project:

1. What video changed your perception the most about given player?
2. Which video is the best overall (however you define it)>
3. Which video is your least favorite?
4. Did this project change your perception about 10 greatest peaks post-merger?
5. Who had the best peak ever after watching the project?
6. Pick one player from any era you'd like to see with similar video.

1. KAJ, a bit higher on his post scoring now then before.
2. Shaq, just thought the whole thing was really well done, most well rounded imo.
3. David Robinson, too much of a career perspective to me, completely skipped the matchup against the Jazz in '94/'96.
4. Probably a bit higher on KAJ and Bird, not really lower on anyone in particular.
5. LeBron, unchanged opinion.
6. Draymond, duh.

[frica]

Talking Chris Paul, what about Nate McMillan?
Had a few 3:1 assist:turnover seasons, even had a 4.4:1 assist:turnover season.
Fairly productive despite small minutes too.

Most underappreciated (maybe underrated) passer ever?