2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1081 » by falcolombardi » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:29 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Embiid developed purely in the USA. Giannis developed mostly in the USA.


Who's to say the US system wouldn't have ruined Embiid if they have gotten to him sooner? He played 3 years in the US (really only 2) before the NBA and the 3rd season nearly ruined his career.

Giannis developed purely in Greece before moving into the NBA, I don't think the US system had any impact on him.


Your argument makes no sense as most of the best basketball players are still American....


"Nikola Jokic and Giannis are the best players, therefore USA sucks at developing players"

This is the actual logic you just used.


Do you guys really think if someone has the talent to be the best player in the world, it has to be because of where they trained? That isn't how competition works. Giannis is one of the best basketball players in the world and he learned how to play like yesterday.

Who are these imaginary players who would be the best player in the world if they grew up in Serbia and not in the USA? This is just ESPN and average joe sensationalism.


Only the best of the best players from other countries come to play in the NBA, so naturally some of them will stick out more - they will be special by design.


i imagine someone like luka may have been worse playing high school basketball and then college compared to playing and ptacticing at pro level in real Madrid
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1082 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:35 am

falcolombardi wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
Who's to say the US system wouldn't have ruined Embiid if they have gotten to him sooner? He played 3 years in the US (really only 2) before the NBA and the 3rd season nearly ruined his career.

Giannis developed purely in Greece before moving into the NBA, I don't think the US system had any impact on him.


Your argument makes no sense as most of the best basketball players are still American....


"Nikola Jokic and Giannis are the best players, therefore USA sucks at developing players"

This is the actual logic you just used.


Do you guys really think if someone has the talent to be the best player in the world, it has to be because of where they trained? That isn't how competition works. Giannis is one of the best basketball players in the world and he learned how to play like yesterday.

Who are these imaginary players who would be the best player in the world if they grew up in Serbia and not in the USA? This is just ESPN and average joe sensationalism.


Only the best of the best players from other countries come to play in the NBA, so naturally some of them will stick out more - they will be special by design.


i imagine someone like luka may have been worse playing high school basketball and then college compared to playing and ptacticing at pro level in real Madrid


If Luka was the BEST PLAYER in all of Europe before he was even old enough for his balls to drop, you really think he would be worse by any significant margin if he played in USA?

His game even resembles that of how USA players play and are often (unfairly) criticized.

Why can't we just talk about players where development actually matters? The answer is simple, because it's a boring topic - and people only want to talk about the best players, where it's not very relevant at all. Because to be the best player in a sport as popular as basketball is to pretty much be born with it, what they do cannot be copied - which is why they are literally the best.

Luka Doncic is freakishly good at basketball, he has an insane talent and feel for the game, and is also athletic (despite popular belief). If he was born in South Africa he would still be one of the best basketball players in the world, unless he chose to play rugby instead or something.


I mean Luka is the best player in his entire countries history, and one of the best players in all of European history at 22 years old. He is an exception not the norm - but if we are only focusing on exceptions why dont we do it for American players? Did Chris Paul not play in the AAU system? Does he not lack an athletic advantage and is a skill based player? Was he also not arguably the best player in the world when he was Luka's age (he was better, actually)? :evil:

Would Chris Paul be much better if he was born in Barcelona? I just don't see the evidence here.



If Americans could go professional at younger ages then yes, they would be better during their early years, but that's because of better trainers and more time reps - not because they would be playing "the right way". But this could be said about any sport in USA, including sports that do not have "AAU" systems.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1083 » by Dutchball97 » Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:13 am

Domantas Sabonis is probably having the most under the radar season so far. For most of the season I thought FVV and Allen were the most underrated but people seem to have caught on to their strong performance, while there is still total silence around Sabonis. He's currently 6th in WS, 8th in VORP, 10th in RAPTOR WAR, 17th in LEBRON wins added and 13th in EPM's estimated wins. His advanced stats are up across the board, even things like PER and TS% are at a career high.

So how come someone who made the All-Star game the last 2 years and looks improved this season isn't in the top 10 of Eastern frontcourt players in the All-Star voting? The top 6 of KD, Giannis, Embiid, Tatum, Butler and Allen makes sense (even though Tatum is debatable) but none of Siakam, Bam, Bridges or LMA are having better seasons than him. I get that Indiana sucks but they were hardly more relevant the last 2 seasons either.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1084 » by Statlanta » Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:57 am

Dutchball97 wrote:I get that Indiana sucks.

The above and he's likely to be traded. Also he's not really a relevant fan vote anyway even if his team was good. A 13th place team probably doesn't deserve a vote unless truly productive.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1085 » by feyki » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:33 am

Baylor, RIP, played one of the best finals in the NBA History. Just wanted to adjust his numbers to 2021 Finals and some may realize how legend was his performance( assumed 85 POSS would've played and adjusted all OPPRTGs,LGRTGs,PLAYOFFSRTGs,SERİESRTGs):

41,7 PPG, 3,8 APG, %66,1 TS, 135 ORTG.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1086 » by RCM88x » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:03 pm

So the recent "news" out of Philly basically is saying they're punting on this season for the microscopic chance they can get a better player back for Simmons.

Seems like a bad year to punt given how wide open things are and how close they are to the top.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1087 » by mikejames23 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:05 pm

Watching Morey, he seems to be on some sort of vendetta against Simmons. Trading him to the worst franchise possible (Kings) or not trading him at all, and letting him rot in DNP's forever.

Doesn't Simmons trade value go down the more that time passes? I wonder if Morey plans on getting anything nice in return.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1088 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:07 pm

Re: 76ers preferring to wait to the off-season to trade Simmons - hoping for Harden:

I just find myself shaking my head at Morey this year. While it's within the realm of possibility that Morey being super-patient on the Simmons trades works out just as he's hoping, he can't know it's going to work out, and if he makes no trade before the deadline, then this will mean he's wasted 2 years of Embiid's prime when he was brought into make the hard decisions that Elton Brand could not.

I consider Morey's Houston work to be among the best GMing performances of the 21st century, but his Philly work may end up being among the most disappointing.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1089 » by eminence » Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:11 pm

Obviously I can't know what deals are really on the table, but if there's anything half decent I'd very much be in favor of making the deal this season vs waiting.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1090 » by parsnips33 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:41 pm

It's hard to know without seeing what's available, but I'm always in favor of pushing your chips in when you have a superstar, whether it's Daryl Morey or Bob Myers
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1091 » by Im Your Father » Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:02 am

Doctor MJ wrote:Re: 76ers preferring to wait to the off-season to trade Simmons - hoping for Harden:

I just find myself shaking my head at Morey this year. While it's within the realm of possibility that Morey being super-patient on the Simmons trades works out just as he's hoping, he can't know it's going to work out, and if he makes no trade before the deadline, then this will mean he's wasted 2 years of Embiid's prime when he was brought into make the hard decisions that Elton Brand could not.

I consider Morey's Houston work to be among the best GMing performances of the 21st century, but his Philly work may end up being among the most disappointing.


I guess I sort of agree with you and it’s definitely frustrating. But my I guess my question is this?

Do we think that any of the pieces that were available thus far make them into contenders this year?

It seems like people are in agreement that last the Sixers WITH Ben Simmons are solidly not contenders.

If Morey makes a move for say McCollum do we really think that’s a contending team? Because if the answer is No, then doesn’t making that trade effectively end Embiid’s window?

I guess I can see the rationale (although I waiver on agreeing with it) that Morey’s better off trying to hit a home run at this stage, even if the odds are relatively slim.

Also, while I think the Laker’s are proof of why you don’t let your franchise player be your GM, I have to think that Embiid must have signed off on this approach. There’s no chance that he’s not being consulted every step of the way right?

None of this is to say that the Sixers shouldn’t have tried to keep Butler and move Simmons, but I think that was before Morey’s time?
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1092 » by eminence » Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:43 am

Jazz 2nd/3rd stringers going at it with the Suns through 3, most fun game Utah has had in a bit.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1093 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:20 am

Put me down as Morey doing absolutely the right thing. Silly narratives about Simmons aside he's too good a player locked up for too long to just trade him for CJ or Brogdan or Buddy Hield or whatever the crap offer of the day is.

Being short-sighted and giving him away wastes potentially all of Embiid's prime. So I don't get those worried about him wasting one year.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1094 » by RCM88x » Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:26 am

Texas Chuck wrote:Put me down as Morey doing absolutely the right thing. Silly narratives about Simmons aside he's too good a player locked up for too long to just trade him for CJ or Brogdan or Buddy Hield or whatever the crap offer of the day is.

Being short-sighted and giving him away wastes potentially all of Embiid's prime. So I don't get those worried about him wasting one year.


Well Embiid will be turning 28 in less than two months. It's not like he's 25 anymore..

I just have doubts that Simmons value is really that high, like obviously he's a very good player but he's also proven to be completely detrimental to his team in key situations due to his fear of shooting. Plus the fact he's taken what's basically going to be a whole year off to sit out.

Just really hard for me to see what kinda deals could manifest that benefit them in both short and long term at this point.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1095 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:33 am

Im Your Father wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Re: 76ers preferring to wait to the off-season to trade Simmons - hoping for Harden:

I just find myself shaking my head at Morey this year. While it's within the realm of possibility that Morey being super-patient on the Simmons trades works out just as he's hoping, he can't know it's going to work out, and if he makes no trade before the deadline, then this will mean he's wasted 2 years of Embiid's prime when he was brought into make the hard decisions that Elton Brand could not.

I consider Morey's Houston work to be among the best GMing performances of the 21st century, but his Philly work may end up being among the most disappointing.


I guess I sort of agree with you and it’s definitely frustrating. But my I guess my question is this?

Do we think that any of the pieces that were available thus far make them into contenders this year?

It seems like people are in agreement that last the Sixers WITH Ben Simmons are solidly not contenders.

If Morey makes a move for say McCollum do we really think that’s a contending team? Because if the answer is No, then doesn’t making that trade effectively end Embiid’s window?

I guess I can see the rationale (although I waiver on agreeing with it) that Morey’s better off trying to hit a home run at this stage, even if the odds are relatively slim.

Also, while I think the Laker’s are proof of why you don’t let your franchise player be your GM, I have to think that Embiid must have signed off on this approach. There’s no chance that he’s not being consulted every step of the way right?

None of this is to say that the Sixers shouldn’t have tried to keep Butler and move Simmons, but I think that was before Morey’s time?


The time to trade Simmons was before last year's playoff trauma. Simple as that. His stock has fallen drastically, as has other franchise's perception of the 76ers' leverage. This may seem like a "Well sure, given everything we know now.", but many of us said that one of the two stars needed to be traded after the 2020 playoffs, and speaking for myself, I had assumed that they brought Morey in to make the hard decision that no one earlier had had the balls to make.

So to me, by far the biggest decision Morey made was not taking seriously the idea that he was sitting on something of a ticking timebomb.

The fact that after the timebomb went off Morey's continued to drag his heels in the name of not trading Simmons until someone else gets desperate enough to offer something fitting for Simmons' prior trade value is the more fascinating spectacle, but it's largely just a gamble being made because Philly doesn't like any of the options realistically available to them at this point. Well and good to try this for a while, but the longer you try it, the more the reality of the consequences will sink in.

Your franchise player is the most injury-prone franchise player since Bill Walton, and if you don't trade Simmons until the off-season, then you've literally wasted what could easily become the healthiest year of his career (if Embiid actually managed to avoid another injury until next season) under the premise that Ben Simmons is so highly valued by other NBA teams that the 76ers will successfully him for assets that you see as more valuable than Simmons.

Maybe it pays off, but if it doesn't, Morey's going to look like a fool.

Re: if trading for McCollum closes the 76ers championship window, why do it? I'd suggest that to the degree McCollum not being good enough could be said to close an open championship window, we should also acknowledge that said championship window has already closed, and what Morey is praying is that the right trade will come along for Simmons that will pry it back open

That prayer can in theory last forever, but let it suffice to say that while Morey claims he can wait Simmons out for 4 years, he cannot. He'll get fired before then, and look like an idiot who strung along the 76ers franchise for years because he really had no plan for how to get the team where he was hired to get them.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1096 » by Dr Positivity » Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:53 am

Kind of sad that Davis is an afterthought in this big dudes era right now. Age 28 could have been his MVP season or something.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1097 » by LukaTheGOAT » Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:34 am

Dr Positivity wrote:Kind of sad that Davis is an afterthought in this big dudes era right now. Age 28 could have been his MVP season or something.


Maybe the 2nd greatest PS run by a PF ever. Never forget, just look at my signature.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1098 » by 70sFan » Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:09 pm

Completely unrelated to 2022 season, but we sometimes forget how incredibly skilled past players were. Look at this left handed fadeaway from Charles Barkley:



Most people don't associate Barkley with skills, but this guy was unvelievable.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1099 » by Dutchball97 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:25 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:Kind of sad that Davis is an afterthought in this big dudes era right now. Age 28 could have been his MVP season or something.


Maybe the 2nd greatest PS run by a PF ever. Never forget, just look at my signature.


Isn't this pushing it a bit? 2003 Duncan and 2011 Dirk are easily better PF runs to me at least. 1993 Barkley could also be argued as having a better season by virtue of being the first option. Considering LeBron in 2013 and Bird in 1984 are listed as PFs too I'd easily take those runs over 2020 AD as well but I suspect most people see LeBron and Bird as SFs regardless.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#1100 » by LukaTheGOAT » Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:44 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:Kind of sad that Davis is an afterthought in this big dudes era right now. Age 28 could have been his MVP season or something.


Maybe the 2nd greatest PS run by a PF ever. Never forget, just look at my signature.


Isn't this pushing it a bit? 2003 Duncan and 2011 Dirk are easily better PF runs to me at least. 1993 Barkley could also be argued as having a better season by virtue of being the first option. Considering LeBron in 2013 and Bird in 1984 are listed as PFs too I'd easily take those runs over 2020 AD as well but I suspect most people see LeBron and Bird as SFs regardless.


I said maybe 2nd greatest ever. 2003 Duncan would be ahead for me. But statistically his 2020 PS run is superior to 2011 Dirk and 1993 Barkley, as his scoring was just as devastating (if not more) then there's while also being arguably the best defensive anchor in the league. Now depending on how you account for context, maybe it wouldn't be ahead of those guys, but the numbers certainly are in his favor.

I was considering Lebron and Bird as small forwards to be honest, so I didn't really think of them.

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