'15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[tone wone]

I keep hearing how Klay is the 2nd best shooter or 3-pt shooter of all-time. I think that is premature and that if he wasn't playing next to Curry we wouldn't be hearing so much of this. He's obvious a great 3-pt shooter, but...

I haven't really thought about him in an all-time sense. I generally refer to him as the "2nd best shooter in the world." When you see his numbers, I see how people can make that leap.

How does Thompson's play in these Finals affect your ranking of him? He probably has no shot against the big names, but when examined in a vacuum: he's been great on D, able to contest most of Kyrie's/LeBron's shots when he's on them, great off-ball, can put it on the floor when defenses commit to contesting the shot, and he's the second greatest shooter ever.

His value next to a great on-ball threat is amazing, and I feel that in the flow of discussion throughout the season (something like "Curry GOAT RS" -> "Hey, Draymond looks amazing" -> "Is it possible they're both GOAT-level?!"), he's been overlooked (not to say he's necessarily better or more impactful thatn Steph/Draymond)

There's not a team in the league he wouldn't fit seamlessly on. He really is like a bigger young Ray Allen offensively. I think there's a nice discussion to be had about Klay & Draymond and how uniquely tight a fit they are around Steph. Its not typical that a teams 2nd best player isn't a scorer but a high-end playmaker which free's up their 3rd best player to be unquestionably the 2nd scoring option. I thought the shift of perception from Klay to Draymond the 2nd half of last year was fascinating. 2015 Warriors got off to a great start. Once people settled on Kerr>>Jackson, the next place they pointed to was Klay's improvement. His scoring outbursts got him acclaim but half way through the season the "Church of Draymond" opened its doors and Klay officially became "the other guy"

I always thought his ability to nearly match Steph's volume from 3 didn't get enough love. That team is devastating because they have TWO historic shooters who induce panic when they get a glimmer of daylight. All the talk of Stephs "gravity" would leave you to believe that Klay's playing free n easy out there. Like he's getting same kinda looks from 3 that Green/Barnes/Iggy get. No those guys are wide damn open because of steph AND Klay.

[ElGee]

Cavaliers Postseason Adjusted Offense (ORTG minus opp DRTG):

05 PHO +17.0
56 MNL +14.0
01 LAL +13.6
03 POR +13.4
10 PHO +13.4
16 CLE +13.1

Cavaliers Postseason Adjusted Net Rating (Relative Offense + Defense, basically SRS per 100):

01 LAL +20.7
96 CHI +16.9
91 CHI +15.8
16 CLE +15.4

I can't tell you how awesome it is that you're compiling and sharing stuff like this SSB.

I honestly haven't been thinking about the Cavs as an all-time great performer, but clearly I need to start serious consideration on it.

I actually had some open follow up questions on those lines regarding GS and the Cavs but am holding out till after the game. Might as well go for it.

To all:

1. Regardless of tomorrow's outcome, what odds would you put on GS vs the past champions (say back to 00)?

2. Assuming Cleveland pulls this out:

If we replayed this series, how often would you expect Cleveland to win? Is this just variance - timely hot shooting from Lebron w/good defensive effort? Or is Cleveland/Lebron just really that good and chose to dial it up when necessary? Or do they just match up well? Or is GS just that hampered by injury across the board?

What odds would you give them vs past champs?

What does it say about the league and our evaluations if in a season with 2 teams that won 140G and put up >10 SRS, the Cavs were able to scale up to such a degree that they played like a 14-15 SRS team and won the whole thing?

Well, first of all they don't have HCA. So even if they were dead even with GS on a neutral floor, that's going to make them an underdog, and to what degree determines how well the teams travel. Typically close to 60-40. Green missed a game. GS is a little banged up. Curry looks a quarter to half-step slower to me after his leg injuries in these playoffs.

But here's what I really want to say: When NBA teams play each other, matchups -- the interaction between how an offense executes and how a defense succeeds -- determines the difference between the teams. Cleveland, since game 1, has executed a scheme defensively that pushes Curry and Klay off their marks a bit more than normal. OKC did this to some degree, but I felt like Cleveland took the blueprint further. The issue is Cleveland isn't a very disciplined defensive team. So what you end up with is a mixed bag, where GS's offense still functions close to its normal status. (i.e. OKC's defense and length did disrupt GS, Cleveland's has slightly reduced its efficacy...maybe.)

On the other side of the ball, the Cavs definitely seem to have moved more away from LeBron in the post, but I also think that their spacing at times in the first 2 games was brutal, and it was much better starting with Jefferson starting in G3. I still see the offense functioning similarly, although I know LBJ has been using PnR more and post-up less, but I think a lot of that is a function of James "figuring out" defenses as the series goes on. His game 5 to game 7 numbers have always been stellar historically, and there have been a number of series that I can think off the top of my head going back to Boston in 2008 where he has made subtle adjustments (attacking a PnR, which guy is on the strong side with him, etc.).

[mischievous]

He took down a Boston team that was way past their prime, and while Boston should be commended for their effort, if 2012 Lebron was anything like the Lebron of the last two games the Heat would have finished the Celtics in 5 or 6. I

So i guess you're ignoring that Lebron averaged 34/11/4 on nearly 59 ts% in that series, and that they had no big man to match up with Kevin Garnett with Bosh missing the first 4 games? That Boston team may have been past their prime, but they were indeed formidable, they very well could've won the title that year if they got past Miami.

[ElGee]

I agree with MJ on this. If Lebron can just flip a switch then why wasn't he able to make 2014 more competitive, or prevent the Cavs from getting blown out in game 6 last year? The Lebron that we are seeing now is not something that we have ever seen before. Yes, he has stepped up in elimination games, but he didn't do it against a better team, never mind one that is an overwhelming favorite. He took down a Boston team that was way past their prime, and while Boston should be commended for their effort, if 2012 Lebron was anything like the Lebron of the last two games the Heat would have finished the Celtics in 5 or 6. In 2013 the Pacers are a class below the Heat so Lebron's monster performance in game 7 should be expected of him. Against the Spurs he was bad until the 4th quarter in game 6 and the margin was razor thin enough that it took a Ray Allen 3 to seal the deal. Game 7 was more impresssive given that the Spurs could be argued as a close equal to the Heat, but the Heat went into the series as the favorites and were playing at home.

If Lebron repeats what he did in game 7 then it may be the greatest accomplishment in NBA history, but I do not see this Lebron as the same Lebron in the previous years.

Just for the record, I have a hard time with the "he started shooting" component of this narrative that many people have been attributing the "flip switching" to. The guy can definitely have a great game against any defense. He also looked like he took advantage of a number of opportunities in G5 with Draymond not being there, and now, without Bogut in G6, there's just less shot blocking on the court for GS.

Here are his outside shot attempts in the series (outside 15 ft) with 3's in parens:
G1 2-5 (2-4)
G2 1-6 (1-5)
G3 4-8 (1-2)
G4 2-8 (1-5)
G5 8-17 (4-8)
G6 4-8 (3-6)

That's an average of 8.7 per game, and a median of 8. For comparison, his average number of shots outside 15 ft in the 2014 Finals was 8.4, median 10. In 2013, 9.3 (with 16 in G7, 6 more than the second-most in the series), median 10.

[Doctor MJ]

Not even interested in any serious analysis of LerBron or Curry or anything really I until this game has been over for a while. Not for a long long time have I felt this kind of emotion or been so swept up in the moment for a sports game. This has the potential to be the type of thing we tell our grandkids about, cliche as that is.

-Thye greatest comeback in Finals history
-against the winningest team of all time
-first Cleveland title in however many goddamn years
-LeBron delivering for his hometown team
-the Warriors scratching and clawing to save their historic 73win season

I mean this game is literally the climax of the story of LeBron's career. It's the type of plot that would be too unrealistic for a sports movie. His performance in the last two games has been unlike anything I've seen in my life and I truly think he's going to top himself tonight.

I'm all in for Cleveland tonight, but the great thing is the historical significance is there no matter which team wins.

This.

A game like this is as good as it gets.
Gotta savor it.


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[mikejames23]

Firmly pulling for the Cavs, at this point. A title for Kyrie would make me happy. This, and it would prove to an extent that an average title contender could pull its level up to a 73 win team during the playoffs, which would be an inspiration for future playoff teams.

[Texas Chuck]

Firmly pulling for the Cavs, at this point. A title for Kyrie would make me happy. This, and it would prove to an extent that an average title contender could pull its level up to a 73 win team during the playoffs, which would be an inspiration for future playoff teams.

I disagree it proves that at all unless the average title contender has a player like Lebron playing at the height of his powers as that is what it has took to get them to this point.

I'm not sure there is much to take from the last 2 series other than GSW is vulnerable when not at full strength and if you have one or In OKC's case, 2 of the best players of the world you always have a chance. But we've known that.

[kabstah]

This has been such a weird Finals. I was ready to shovel dirt on the Cavaliers' coffin after game one. Clearly, it hasn't worked out that way.

Part of me thinks that LeBron's rediscovered jump shot could turn back into a pumpkin at any moment, which means Cleveland is in a world of trouble.

The other part of me wouldn't be surprised if he executes Shang Tsung's soul steal fatality on the entire GSW team at halftime.

[Basileus777]

What an amazing series.

And that's why you don't get yourself suspended for a game Draymond Green. And why the Warriors need to find an adequate replacement for Bogut as they just lost the finals because they had to play Andy Varejao and Ezeli crucial minutes in which they were killed. Without Bogut they had no one other than Green that could hold up at center, and it really makes it hard for me to believe that they could contend with other great teams with size and length.

[JordansBulls]

My top 3 will be:

1. Lebron
2. Curry
3. Westbrook

Curry losing with HCA and playing poorly is a big strike no matter how great his season was.

[Dr Spaceman]

1. LeBron
2. Lebron
3. LeBron
4. LeBron
5. LeBron

[mikejames23]

So that just happened.

I imagine basketball purists still want to criticize Kyrie's game, but he's got just enough to take up a large amount of possessions on a team that beat the GOAT.

It's easy to knock off Curry from #1, but I feel I should sit on that for a bit and not let myself get carried away. Wow, though. What a season this was, from Kobe's retirememnt to 73 wins, to 3-1 OKC series, to this 3-1 historic comeback. Best season in a long time.

[RSCD3_]

1. LeBron
2. Lebron
3. LeBron
4. LeBron
5. LeBron

Potential top 5 rn

LeBron's right arm
Steph Curry's fingers
Westbrooks Calves
Kawhi's hands
Durant forearms

[RSCD3_]

So that just happened.

I imagine basketball purists still want to criticize Kyrie's game, but he's got just enough to take up a large amount of possessions on a team that beat the GOAT.

It's easy to knock off Curry from #1, but I feel I should sit on that for a bit and not let myself get carried away. Wow, though. What a season this was, from Kobe's retirememnt to 73 wins, to 3-1 OKC series, to this 3-1 historic comeback. Best season in a long time.

Storybook RS finale and Storybook PS finale.

[Colbinii]

My top 3 will be:

1. Lebron
2. Curry
3. Westbrook

Curry losing with HCA and playing poorly is a big strike no matter how great his season was.

JB, I know a lot of people on here disagree with what "standards" you have when evaluating players, and I for one disagree with you on just about everything. But you are one of the most consistent posters on here when it comes to ranking players with your reasonings, so props for that

[JordansBulls]

So that just happened.

I imagine basketball purists still want to criticize Kyrie's game, but he's got just enough to take up a large amount of possessions on a team that beat the GOAT.

It's easy to knock off Curry from #1, but I feel I should sit on that for a bit and not let myself get carried away. Wow, though. What a season this was, from Kobe's retirememnt to 73 wins, to 3-1 OKC series, to this 3-1 historic comeback. Best season in a long time.

I think 2011 was one of the top playoffs as well as 1993 based on the playoffs and finals.

[GSP]

Thoughts on Stephs defense? Thought it was pretty crazy how much the Cavs wanted to put him in pickandrolls. Looked like Kyrie from the regular season against elite teams who did that.

[SideshowBob]

I think we should definitely hold off on voting, let this sink in. Feel like the longer we wait the less objectivity will be lost in the moment.

[Ballerhogger]

Without a dobut the best player was Lebron 29.7 points, 11.3 rebounds, 8.9 assists, 2.6 steals and 2.3 finals avg. Great post season all around i thought westbrook could of gotten if Cavs would of lost but its pretty clear cut now.

[Ballerhogger]

for my top 3 it will be
Lebron
Curry
Westbrook