The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4)

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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1101 » by LivingLegend » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:43 pm

JulesWinnfield wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
JulesWinnfield wrote:
I want no part of Wade whatsoever. Clearly on the decline which will only continue... messes with the spacing on offense because he can't shoot... can't trust him whatsoever physically even though he's coming off a shockingly healthy year (good luck betting on that to continue). I'd prefer JR for this team without even thinking twice about it. Better shooter, better defender at this stage, more reliable availability... They need catch and shoot guys surrounding Lebron and Kyrie, Smith is a very nice fit. Wade in place of JR won't make this team one iota better. In fact I think he makes them worse. I'm not saying JR is a better player, but he's absolutely a better fit. Putting smith in Miami in place of Wade and the heat would suffer themselves too. This is about fit


If it is about fit, what better fit in NBA history was Wade and LeBron besides maybe Kobe/Shaq. When those 2 played together a few years back they each elivated eachother games because of their chemistry and playmaking abilility for one another. Yes JR is a great 3 point shooter, but Wade is a much better passer and shot creator who can still get you 25 points a game. Just not from chucking 3s like JR.

In regards to the defense, historically Wade is a much better defender than JR. He might not play like it all the time during the regular season because of age, but once the postseason rolls around Wade will go into lockdown defense knowing he doesnt have to carry the scoring load.

You can find a player to be a 3point shooting machine off the bench to fill JRs spot. There are plenty of them out there. Courtney Lee, Jared Dudley or a guy like Anthony Morrow who could come for the vet minimum but just stand there any rain uncontested 3 balls off the bench if Wade/Kyrie/LeBron were on the floor.

Would I love to keep JR, sure. But if I can have Dwayne Wade over him for 2-3 years (since they are both on the backside of their careers) give me Wade anytime and its not even a question. Playing with LeBron on a legit title contender also might put some spring back in that step of his and extend his career playing with his best buddy for rings.


For a time LBJ/Wade had overpowering talent as a duo (that time has passed however, right around the time the 27 game win streak ended when Wade was battling his knee bruise) that's not to be confused with fit though.

Forget going through all time pairings, I don't even think Wade was the best fit Lebron has ever had in a sidekick. Offensively at least Kyrie is a superior pairing with Lebron because of his ability to space the floor and shoot it at a high level working off James, in addition to everything he brings in ISO. The heat never had a playoff run where they operated on as high a level offensively as this cav team just did posting a 115.5 o-rating. Lebron and Wade were never the most natural pairing given their overlapping traits, and they had their issues initially, but their talent was just overpowering and eventually they figured out a mix...from 2012 through about mid 2013 (27 game win streak) they made beautiful music together, but late that year Wade had the knee bruise and from then onward it has just been steady deterioration. He's not that guy anymore, not even close, never will be again, and it's only getting worse from here on out. I want no part of him on the Cavs


lol yea but Kyrie vs Wade isnt the question. Its Wade vs JR. Would I trade Kyrie for Wade? hellll no. But JR for Wade even with the injury concerns? Absolutely. Having Kyrie/LeBron/Wade on the floor in the postseason would be deadly from an experience level, playmaking level and matchup nightmare level. JR is a great 3+D guy. You can go find another one with his skillset for less than he will be asking (Anthony Morrow). You cannot go find another guy like Wade who brings a championship pedigree, playmaking for others on the court (because all that we have now is Bron) and all around good play.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1102 » by JulesWinnfield » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:55 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
JulesWinnfield wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
If it is about fit, what better fit in NBA history was Wade and LeBron besides maybe Kobe/Shaq. When those 2 played together a few years back they each elivated eachother games because of their chemistry and playmaking abilility for one another. Yes JR is a great 3 point shooter, but Wade is a much better passer and shot creator who can still get you 25 points a game. Just not from chucking 3s like JR.

In regards to the defense, historically Wade is a much better defender than JR. He might not play like it all the time during the regular season because of age, but once the postseason rolls around Wade will go into lockdown defense knowing he doesnt have to carry the scoring load.

You can find a player to be a 3point shooting machine off the bench to fill JRs spot. There are plenty of them out there. Courtney Lee, Jared Dudley or a guy like Anthony Morrow who could come for the vet minimum but just stand there any rain uncontested 3 balls off the bench if Wade/Kyrie/LeBron were on the floor.

Would I love to keep JR, sure. But if I can have Dwayne Wade over him for 2-3 years (since they are both on the backside of their careers) give me Wade anytime and its not even a question. Playing with LeBron on a legit title contender also might put some spring back in that step of his and extend his career playing with his best buddy for rings.


For a time LBJ/Wade had overpowering talent as a duo (that time has passed however, right around the time the 27 game win streak ended when Wade was battling his knee bruise) that's not to be confused with fit though.

Forget going through all time pairings, I don't even think Wade was the best fit Lebron has ever had in a sidekick. Offensively at least Kyrie is a superior pairing with Lebron because of his ability to space the floor and shoot it at a high level working off James, in addition to everything he brings in ISO. The heat never had a playoff run where they operated on as high a level offensively as this cav team just did posting a 115.5 o-rating. Lebron and Wade were never the most natural pairing given their overlapping traits, and they had their issues initially, but their talent was just overpowering and eventually they figured out a mix...from 2012 through about mid 2013 (27 game win streak) they made beautiful music together, but late that year Wade had the knee bruise and from then onward it has just been steady deterioration. He's not that guy anymore, not even close, never will be again, and it's only getting worse from here on out. I want no part of him on the Cavs


lol yea but Kyrie vs Wade isnt the question. Its Wade vs JR. Would I trade Kyrie for Wade? hellll no. But JR for Wade even with the injury concerns? Absolutely. Having Kyrie/LeBron/Wade on the floor in the postseason would be deadly from an experience level, playmaking level and matchup nightmare level. JR is a great 3+D guy. You can go find another one with his skillset for less than he will be asking (Anthony Morrow). You cannot go find another guy like Wade who brings a championship pedigree, playmaking for others on the court (because all that we have now is Bron) and all around good play.


I understand we are talking about Wade vs JR, and for the role that is needed on Cleveland it is JR all day long. This is not a resume' contest and name power isn't the end all. Smith is a way better fit. If the Cavs and heat dealt JR for Wade, both teams would be worse off

We just aren't going to see eye to eye here. If your opinion of JR is that you can replace him with Anthony morrow, and your opinion of Wade is a 25 ppg guy as you stated (maybe in China, or here in the states if he was allowed to be deplorably inefficient), then we just have very different opinions on where these guys are as players today, independent of the fact that JR's skill set is more sorely needed than what Wade brings. I never said JR is better, but he's a way better fit
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1103 » by Tim_Hardawayy » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:35 pm

In the fantasy scenario where Wade gets to Cleveland, to me the lineup you play is Kyrie/Wade/J.R./LeBron/T.T. (move Love). That way you still have shooting, and Wade can be the experienced pivot on offense.

That said, its not happening.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1104 » by Dupp » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:25 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
JLei wrote:This is going to be a pretty boring offseason for the Cavs.

JR's contract is going to be pretty interesting. In the mock offseason that Nate Duncan and Kevin Pelton just did they got him at a 3 year 60 million contract. And honestly if you listen to that podcast you are going to be laughing at some of the contracts that will be offered. Too many teams have way too much money.

Cavs pretty much have to keep him but I doubt there are offers like that out there for JR even though some teams might want to mess with the Champs to make them overpay to keep him.

I'm anticipating a 3/45 being a pretty fair offer for both sides and around where he signs but wondering what other teams would pony up more to grab JR.

Other than that, they have the mini mid level which is 3.477 mil which is really small in this environment and then veteran minimum ring chasers. Oh and Cedi Osman might come over (31st pick last year, seems pretty good). Wonder if RJ just comes back for the vet min or asks for a larger salary (using the mini-mid level). He almost retired but then said he'd come back for the repeat, but seems from the playoffs he has plenty left in the tank and teams might offer him 5 mil for 1 season.

Jared Dudley would be ideal but he hasn't made as much money in the league and his recent interviews make it seem like he wants his 1 big contract. Joe Johnson is an interesting one. He's made a crap ton of money and almost signed with the Cavs mid season last year. But he did choose Miami because he likely wanted to show case for this year's free agency. Unlikely that he is coming either.

Lol just heard part 2 of the podcast. The Delly contract might also be pretty ugly. 4/55 is what they are settling on. The Cavs in the mock offseason declined to match.


Delly is gone so lets just leave him out of it. Mo Williams picked up his player option and the Cavs paid 2.5 million for a 2nd round pick to draft Kay Felder. They know Dellys asking price is going to be 45-55mill and they cant pay that, so they paid 500k a year for Felder instead.


Delly won't leave, he also won't get 55 mil.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1105 » by Dupp » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:30 pm

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:In the fantasy scenario where Wade gets to Cleveland, to me the lineup you play is Kyrie/Wade/J.R./LeBron/T.T. (move Love). That way you still have shooting, and Wade can be the experienced pivot on offense.

That said, its not happening.



I think wade is due for one more big contract and that's gonna be with the heat but do you think he'd ever consider ring chasing at any stage in his career?

Not necessarily with the cavs but say you guys aren't doing well in two years and no where near contending ( maybe bosh retires and whiteside either had left or is disappointing) do you think he'd go somewhere to win for a year or two?

For me I don't really see it as long as Miami treat him right. He's already got three rings and played his whole career there.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1106 » by Tim_Hardawayy » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:35 pm

Dupp wrote:
Tim_Hardawayy wrote:In the fantasy scenario where Wade gets to Cleveland, to me the lineup you play is Kyrie/Wade/J.R./LeBron/T.T. (move Love). That way you still have shooting, and Wade can be the experienced pivot on offense.

That said, its not happening.



I think wade is due for one more big contract and that's gonna be with the heat but do you think he'd ever consider ring chasing at any stage in his career?

Not necessarily with the cavs but say you guys aren't doing well in two years and no where near contending ( maybe bosh retires and whiteside either had left or is disappointing) do you think he'd go somewhere to win for a year or two?

For me I don't really see it as long as Miami treat him right. He's already got three rings and played his whole career there.

I think he's going the Kobe route. Ride it out and eventually swindle the team for 1 huge farewell contract. I just hope it isn't now, because if it is, the Heat are done competing for a few years.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1107 » by tsherkin » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:00 am

Tim_Hardawayy wrote: I just hope it isn't now, because if it is, the Heat are done competing for a few years.


More than a few, unless they get lucky. With Bosh's career effectively done, the potential for Whiteside to leave and Wade not being an elite player, Dragic isn't going to carry them to any kind of meaningful competition, right? They probably aren't going to do much to begin with, let alone if they saddle themselves with a big contract for Wade.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1108 » by toodles23 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:00 am

Wade's going to stay in Miami, and even if he decided to leave, it would be because he wanted to go somewhere that offered him more money (meaning not the Cavs).

It would be pretty hilarious if he went to the Knicks though. They would unquestionably be the 2011 NBA champs.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1109 » by RSCD3_ » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:16 am

Watching a miami mix of his defense and damn his hands were fantastic

If he is around the same level of defender from 11-13 as he was now what compensated for the IIRC loss of all this smothering he used to do with defenders, was it because cleveland is more traditional and now he is using his footwork more to deter passes

Interesting 10 minute video

[youtube]https://youtube.com/watch?v=FS6uFOTZCX0[/youtube]
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1110 » by Colbinii » Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:25 am

RSCD3_ wrote:Watching a miami mix of his defense and damn his hands were fantastic

If he is around the same level of defender from 11-13 as he was now what compensated for the IIRC loss of all this smothering he used to do with defenders, was it because cleveland is more traditional and now he is using his footwork more to deter passes

Interesting 10 minute video


Could you imagine LeBron during hand-checking :nod:
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1111 » by Dupp » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:04 am

RSCD3_ wrote:Watching a miami mix of his defense and damn his hands were fantastic

If he is around the same level of defender from 11-13 as he was now what compensated for the IIRC loss of all this smothering he used to do with defenders, was it because cleveland is more traditional and now he is using his footwork more to deter passes

Interesting 10 minute video

[youtube]https://youtube.com/watch?v=FS6uFOTZCX0[/youtube]



I think Miami was just a much better all round defensive team so lebron was able to really dominate as a help defender in Miami. They had much better individual defenders and team scheme.

I really don't think he's much worse at all now he just had a different role and had to cover for guys a lot more,
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1112 » by JulesWinnfield » Fri Jul 1, 2016 1:30 am

Just a heads up... ESPN already updated the "believeland" 30 for 30 (which I still haven't seen but am planning on watching) to reflect the Cavs title. I stumbled upon the last 5 minutes by accident just now (the part where the Cavs title is shown) and it was incredibly well done. Keep an eye out for it. I'm looking in my guide right now and there doesn't appear to be any upcoming airings in the immediate future, but they show these things a million times so it will surely air again
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1113 » by ceiling raiser » Fri Jul 1, 2016 1:49 am

JulesWinnfield wrote:Just a heads up... ESPN already updated the "believeland" 30 for 30 (which I still haven't seen but am planning on watching) to reflect the Cavs title. I stumbled upon the last 5 minutes by accident just now (the part where the Cavs title is shown) and it was incredibly well done. Keep an eye out for it. I'm looking in my guide right now and there doesn't appear to be any upcoming airings in the immediate future, but they show these things a million times so it will surely air again

Same, caught the last 15 minutes of it by pure chance. Pretty solid IMO.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1114 » by JordansBulls » Fri Jul 1, 2016 1:51 am

JulesWinnfield wrote:Just a heads up... ESPN already updated the "believeland" 30 for 30 (which I still haven't seen but am planning on watching) to reflect the Cavs title. I stumbled upon the last 5 minutes by accident just now (the part where the Cavs title is shown) and it was incredibly well done. Keep an eye out for it. I'm looking in my guide right now and there doesn't appear to be any upcoming airings in the immediate future, but they show these things a million times so it will surely air again

Did they cut out something else or add on to the length of the program?
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1115 » by JulesWinnfield » Fri Jul 1, 2016 1:56 am

JordansBulls wrote:
JulesWinnfield wrote:Just a heads up... ESPN already updated the "believeland" 30 for 30 (which I still haven't seen but am planning on watching) to reflect the Cavs title. I stumbled upon the last 5 minutes by accident just now (the part where the Cavs title is shown) and it was incredibly well done. Keep an eye out for it. I'm looking in my guide right now and there doesn't appear to be any upcoming airings in the immediate future, but they show these things a million times so it will surely air again

Did they cut out something else or add on to the length of the program?


Can't say for sure since I didn't see the original one. But I'm assuming something got cut because this new version was 90 minutes and so was the original one. Maybe they just cut out commercials.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1116 » by JordansBulls » Fri Jul 1, 2016 1:58 am

JulesWinnfield wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
JulesWinnfield wrote:Just a heads up... ESPN already updated the "believeland" 30 for 30 (which I still haven't seen but am planning on watching) to reflect the Cavs title. I stumbled upon the last 5 minutes by accident just now (the part where the Cavs title is shown) and it was incredibly well done. Keep an eye out for it. I'm looking in my guide right now and there doesn't appear to be any upcoming airings in the immediate future, but they show these things a million times so it will surely air again

Did they cut out something else or add on to the length of the program?


Can't say for sure since I didn't see the original one. But I'm assuming something got cut because this new version was 90 minutes and so was the original one. Maybe they just cut out commercials.

Ok on Netflix the original one was 1 hour and 17 minutes, so looks like they added the 13 minutes.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1117 » by JulesWinnfield » Fri Jul 1, 2016 2:05 am

JordansBulls wrote:
JulesWinnfield wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Did they cut out something else or add on to the length of the program?


Can't say for sure since I didn't see the original one. But I'm assuming something got cut because this new version was 90 minutes and so was the original one. Maybe they just cut out commercials.

Ok on Netflix the original one was 1 hour and 17 minutes, so looks like they added the 13 minutes.


I think the Netflix version is minus commercials though. When I said 90 minutes I was talking about the tv version. I have the original in my DVR right now. Comparing apples to apples the original that aired on May 14th started at 9:30pm and ended at 11pm. Today's episode started at 8pm and ended at 9:30
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1118 » by Alphabet » Fri Jul 1, 2016 9:30 pm

So I'm guessing Delly is gone after what LeBron tweeted? Thoughts?
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1119 » by JulesWinnfield » Fri Jul 1, 2016 9:36 pm

Alphabet wrote:So I'm guessing Delly is gone after what LeBron tweeted? Thoughts?


I don't know. I think sometimes we give Lebron too much credit with regards to his gm duties. I'm sure he has input (I mean, we know he does) but I highly doubt he's deep into the weeds on the minutia of every little detail. I think it's entirely possible he doesn't even know Delly was merely restricted and that Cleveland can still match. I could be wrong though.

I'd like to see the Cavs match but at some point Dan Gilbert is going to want to save here or there, especially when he has to pay JR still and they're already paying tax
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4) 

Post#1120 » by MisterHibachi » Fri Jul 1, 2016 9:42 pm

Delly isn't a small loss. He was at times the first off the bench. Really don't trust Mo with those minutes.

Btw is anyone else surprised at how many deals are already being agreed to when KD hasn't even made his move yet? I swear no one moved a finger in 2014 until LeBron made his decision.
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