Retro Player of the Year Project

[mopper8]

“If Russell had ever failed, the franchise would have been out of town and Auerbach would have been out with it. Anytime Auerbach sits down and tries to tell you that Bird and Bill Russell are even, he’s sick. Auerbach should have fifty pictures of Bill Russell in his office and he should kiss every one of them every day. Because Russell made him.”
(Dan Shaughnessy, Seeing Red: The Red Auerbach Story [New York: Crown, 1994], p. 103)

I don't really find this counter-quote persuasive. On the one hand, you have a guy who coached Bill Russell for a decade and is considered by many to be one of the, if not the great mind in basketball history. On the other hand, you have a Boston-homer journalist calling him an ingrate. Who are we really supposed to take as a bigger authority on the skills and value of a basketball player?

[Doctor MJ]

“If Russell had ever failed, the franchise would have been out of town and Auerbach would have been out with it. Anytime Auerbach sits down and tries to tell you that Bird and Bill Russell are even, he’s sick. Auerbach should have fifty pictures of Bill Russell in his office and he should kiss every one of them every day. Because Russell made him.”
(Dan Shaughnessy, Seeing Red: The Red Auerbach Story [New York: Crown, 1994], p. 103)

I don't really find this counter-quote persuasive. On the one hand, you have a guy who coached Bill Russell for a decade and is considered by many to be one of the, if not the great mind in basketball history. On the other hand, you have a Boston-homer journalist calling him an ingrate. Who are we really supposed to take as a bigger authority on the skills and value of a basketball player?

I'd agree, but I swear I've seen Red make contradictory quotes on this regard. There was one where he talked about how he could replace Bird with Hondo with some success, but Russell was irreplaceable.

It's just one of many examples that have led me to basically ignore what players & coaches say about player comparisons. I love hearing what they have to say about a player's game specifically, but they just don't take player comparisons seriously enough.

[mopper8]

It's just one of many examples that have led me to basically ignore what players & coaches say about player comparisons. I love hearing what they have to say about a player's game specifically, but they just don't take player comparisons seriously enough.

I definitely agree with this sentiment. There are a few players who, after hearing them talk a bit, I think actually seem to get this stuff, but by and large their comments about other players and historical stuff makes me laugh.

As far as I know, for whatever reason Jamal Mashburn didn't keep his gig doing analysis, but I thought he was great personally.

[Doctor MJ]

It's just one of many examples that have led me to basically ignore what players & coaches say about player comparisons. I love hearing what they have to say about a player's game specifically, but they just don't take player comparisons seriously enough.

I definitely agree with this sentiment. There are a few players who, after hearing them talk a bit, I think actually seem to get this stuff, but by and large their comments about other players and historical stuff makes me laugh.

As far as I know, for whatever reason Jamal Mashburn didn't keep his gig doing analysis, but I thought he was great personally.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_d ... nba-273698

Guessing his becoming a successful business man wealthy enough to consider buying a team had something to do with that.

[mopper8]

As far as I know, for whatever reason Jamal Mashburn didn't keep his gig doing analysis, but I thought he was great personally.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_d ... nba-273698

Guessing his becoming a successful business man wealthy enough to consider buying a team had something to do with that.

WHOA.

Dime: What NBA franchise would you be interested in buying?
JM: I’ve been approached by people to be a part of a group, but at the time it wasn’t right. But NBA franchises don’t come on the market very often. Personally, I’d like to buy the Detroit Pistons. I think with their fan base and history alone, the Pistons would be a good buy. Other potential owners have to realize there’s going to be a new CBA so you have to look at what the labor is going to cost. And in life, I like to do the opposite of what everyone else is doing. Buy low and sell high works for a lot of people, so why not me? And Joe Dumars has done an excellent job there to build a winner.

Good for him, man. That's awesome. I guess I was on point in thinking that he came off as really intelligent when listening to his analysis

[ThaRegul8r]

“If Russell had ever failed, the franchise would have been out of town and Auerbach would have been out with it. Anytime Auerbach sits down and tries to tell you that Bird and Bill Russell are even, he’s sick. Auerbach should have fifty pictures of Bill Russell in his office and he should kiss every one of them every day. Because Russell made him.”
(Dan Shaughnessy, Seeing Red: The Red Auerbach Story [New York: Crown, 1994], p. 103)

I don't really find this counter-quote persuasive. On the one hand, you have a guy who coached Bill Russell for a decade and is considered by many to be one of the, if not the great mind in basketball history. On the other hand, you have a Boston-homer journalist calling him an ingrate. Who are we really supposed to take as a bigger authority on the skills and value of a basketball player?

Let's look at a couple other sources. After all, we can't just rely on one:

“He had Cousy, Sharman and Ramsey. [. . .] The Celtics had a pair of Hall of Fame guards. They had the shooters and the running forwards. But they couldn’t move ahead in the playoffs. Red Auerbach had been coaching ten seasons in the pros and he’d made it to the finals only once where he’d lost in six games. In Boston, he had won only three of nine playoff series and had never made it to the finals. After a full ten seasons as a head coach, no small tryout, the book on Red Auerbach was that he couldn’t win the big one.”

Funny how all that changed after Russell got there, and how no one even remembers that now. (Anyone think it's coincidence that Auerbach becomes GOAT coach after getting Russell, and Phil Jackson then becomes GOAT coach after getting Jordan and Pippen, and then Shaq and Kobe, in succession?)

[BTW, Auerbach didn't even want Cousy. That he ended up with him was pure, unadulterated luck. I'm not sure if you're aware of the story behind it.]

Charley Eckman: “A lot of people are afraid to tell the truth about Auerbach because he's been a big shot in the NBA for so long, but [..,] he was the luckiest man alive to end up with Bill Russell.”

Fred Schaus: “The success of the Celtics was not due to Auerbach, but to No. 6—Bill Russell.”

[mopper8]

I'm definitely aware of the story behind Cousy, local guy that Red thought was flashy, didn't want him, kinda him forced on him IIRC. However, this:

Charley Eckman: “A lot of people are afraid to tell the truth about Auerbach because he's been a big shot in the NBA for so long, but [..,] he was the luckiest man alive to end up with Bill Russell.”

...is total garbage. He wanted Russell, he pursued Russell, and he actually traded for Russell, giving up Hagan and McCaulley. It's a little disingenuous to call him "lucky" to end up with Russell when he went after Russell hard, and traded for him. C'mon now, I know you know that story.

And now, in order to build up Russell, we're beyond down-playing his supporting cast, we're also trashing Red? That's just poor.

It's not like Russell himself wasn't lucky to end up with Red, who told him to forget about offense, who instead of fighting Russell on defense, designed a team to take advantage of his instincts and nurtured those instincts.

Seriously, forget about being persuasive, now you're pushing me the other way...I'm having trouble taking your POV on this seriously if you're going to peddle that stuff.

[ThaRegul8r]

I'm definitely aware of the story behind Cousy, local guy that Red thought was flashy, didn't want him, kinda him forced on him IIRC. However, this:

Charley Eckman: “A lot of people are afraid to tell the truth about Auerbach because he's been a big shot in the NBA for so long, but [..,] he was the luckiest man alive to end up with Bill Russell.”

...is total garbage. He wanted Russell, he pursued Russell, and he actually traded for Russell, giving up Hagan and McCaulley. It's a little disingenuous to call him "lucky" to end up with Russell when he went after Russell hard, and traded for him. C'mon now, I know you know that story.

Of course I know this. But St. Louis still had to agree to the deal. If they didn't, it wouldn't have mattered how much he wanted him. You still have to hope that the other side doesn't see what you do.

And now, in order to build up Russell, we're beyond down-playing his supporting cast, we're also trashing Red? That's just poor.

I'm not "trashing Red." I'm presenting the other side. The "devil's advocate" position.

Seriously, forget about being persuasive, now you're pushing me the other way...I'm having trouble taking your POV on this seriously if you're going to peddle that stuff.

Who said I was trying to persuade anyone of anything? I'm not getting paid by anyone to "recruit" anyone. I was just presenting some of the other side that was said in response to the statement that Bird was greater than Russell. That's all.

(And never did I say it was my POV. I've presented the views of contemporaneous others.)

[mopper8]

OK, fair enough. Again, though, I don't consider trading for someone "lucky." St. Louis had to agree to the deal, yeah, but they actually rejected his first offer, for just McCauley. They wanted Hagan, and Red gave up more than he originally wanted to in order to get Rusell. And then as a coach helped make Russell the player he was by allowing him to play D the way he wanted to, forget O, etc etc.

Its not like Russell fell into his lap or anything.

Its just awful revisionist history IMO.

[Doctor MJ]

Of course I know this. But St. Louis still had to agree to the deal. If they didn't, it wouldn't have mattered how much he wanted him. You still have to hope that the other side doesn't see what you do.

So Red was lucky that he was smarter about basketball than guys running other teams? Agree. Russell was also lucky to be 6-9, freakishly athletic, and incredibly smart. Man, those Celtics, they only won because of luck.

[ThaRegul8r]

Of course I know this. But St. Louis still had to agree to the deal. If they didn't, it wouldn't have mattered how much he wanted him. You still have to hope that the other side doesn't see what you do.

So Red was lucky that he was smarter about basketball than guys running other teams? Agree. Russell was also lucky to be 6-9, freakishly athletic, and incredibly smart. Man, those Celtics, they only won because of luck.

[bastillon]

OK, fair enough. Again, though, I don't consider trading for someone "lucky." St. Louis had to agree to the deal, yeah, but they actually rejected his first offer, for just McCauley. They wanted Hagan, and Red gave up more than he originally wanted to in order to get Rusell. And then as a coach helped make Russell the player he was by allowing him to play D the way he wanted to, forget O, etc etc.

Its not like Russell fell into his lap or anything.

Its just awful revisionist history IMO.

it's not like Russell didn't prove his value under 2 different coaches before Red: in college and on the olympic team. if you see player do as well as he did in these different circumstances, it's hard to argue against him and his value. Red would have to be a fool to use him differently. the guy already had been incredibly succesful with his style of play and it proved capable of leading his teams to 2 college titles and the olympic gold. why would you even consider changing anything in his game ?

because of that, I don't get why I would give Red some serious credit for letting Russell play defense and forget about offense. it's not like anyone's asking Thabeet to be a 30 PPG scorer while forbiding him to rebound. you have a top prospect and you let him do what he can do best.

[Sedale Threatt]

That's what good coaches do. But like players, not all coaches are good at their jobs. Red was not one of them. In an era where a lot of players were picked straight out of magazines, sight unseen, with minimal to know scouting, he knew exactly what he was going after. From Taylor's The Rivalry:

A number of coaches and sportswriters believed Russell lacked pro potential. He had certain specific, if somewhat limited, skills, they believed, but he was too skinny and he was a poor shooter. He was certainly not the all-around phenomenon that Wilt Chamberlain, then still a high school players, was proving to be.

But Auerbach's inquiries left him with the impression that, however limited Russell might be in general, in the areas of his strengths he was overwhelming. Russell was not the answer to every coach's prayers. But working with players whose skills complemented and extended his and whose talents covered for his weaknesses -- players, that is, like the Celtics -- he could be the linchpin of an indomitable team.

I can easily see a situation where a coach would have either not appreciated, or even seen in the first place, what Russell did so well, and gotten hung up on what he didn't. Namely, score. And let's not forget the owners. You're paying a rookie you just traded up to get just one grand less than Bob Cousy, your star attraction, and his areas of strength (defense, rebounding) aren't exactly the things that put fans in the seats.

Which is why Auerbach told Russell, after he admitted he was concerned about his low scoring average: "We'll never discuss statistics when we talk contract. I'll only discuss whether you played well. If you rebound and play good defense, I'll consider whatever points you get a bonus."

Any competent coach would have appreciated what Russell gave them, eventually. But I highly doubt many would have treated them, from the start, like Auerbach did.

Also, Russell played in the Olympics after the Celtics traded for him, so what he did on that team played no factor in Auerbach's intense desire to acquire him.

I'm not going to sit here and argue that Red knew he was lining up the greatest dynasty in the history of American professional sports by making that trade. I'm not even sure he knew how great Russell was, as much as he loved him.

But Auerbach did know exactly what he was getting -- a defensive force that would take his team to a new level.

[Doctor MJ]

ONE WEEK LEFT!

Hard to believe we're almost done, isn't it?

[JordansBulls]

ONE WEEK LEFT!

Hard to believe we're almost done, isn't it?

Yes and it was a great project. Just wish the same amount of folks who started it participated throughout. We went from around 30+ to 20+ to around 12-15.

[ElGee]

ONE WEEK LEFT!

Hard to believe we're almost done, isn't it?

Amazing project. I wish I could have contributed over this final month, but I had some personal issues to attend to. I tried to skim the threads whenever possible, and think that the remaining participants (and mopper) carried the project home well.

I not only enjoyed the look back through history, but learned way more than I thought I would. Hopefully the threads act as a good reference point for future discussion. Thanks to everyone who participated -- it was a great group -- and a special thanks to Doctor MJ for setting up the project and coordinating it throughout (and Semi for the website, which should only grow in popularity).

Cheers everyone.

-LG

[bastillon]

ONE WEEK LEFT!

Hard to believe we're almost done, isn't it?

Amazing project. I wish I could have contributed over this final month, but I had some personal issues to attend to. I tried to skim the threads whenever possible, and think that the remaining participants (and mopper) carried the project home well.

I not only enjoyed the look back through history, but learned way more than I thought I would. Hopefully the threads act as a good reference point for future discussion. Thanks to everyone who participated -- it was a great group -- and a special thanks to Doctor MJ for setting up the project and coordinating it throughout (and Semi for the website, which should only grow in popularity).

Cheers everyone.

-LG

regardless of the project you've gotta stay around though

[TrueLAfan]

ONE WEEK LEFT!

Hard to believe we're almost done, isn't it?

Amazing project. I wish I could have contributed over this final month, but I had some personal issues to attend to. I tried to skim the threads whenever possible, and think that the remaining participants (and mopper) carried the project home well.

I not only enjoyed the look back through history, but learned way more than I thought I would. Hopefully the threads act as a good reference point for future discussion. Thanks to everyone who participated -- it was a great group -- and a special thanks to Doctor MJ for setting up the project and coordinating it throughout (and Semi for the website, which should only grow in popularity).

Cheers everyone.

-LG

Second this in every way, especially the work done by both DoctorMJ amd Semi. Thanks to all!

[semi-sentient]

Thanks for all the research ElGee, and to everyone else who contributed.

Now that I have a decent framework in place, we can use a similar site for future projects where votes are tallied.

[Sedale Threatt]

It's been long. And mostly fun.