'17-'18 POY discussion

[bondom34]

Seems like you're just conflating a bunch of things together, and I'm not even sure why.

Do you seriously believe the Butler-Crawford situation is worth discussing about in a POY debate right now, or are you just trying to trip me up?

I think its consistent with what you'e been docking Lebron for. Its inconsistent.

Please be specific. What exactly am I being inconsistent about?

Lebron is consistently docked for rumors that he wants specific teammates around, even when there are reports to the contrary.

Butler is not when he directly states he wants a player around who's clearly detrimental. Butler is actually lauded for leadership, Lebron is docked as a poor leader. It's an inconsistent argument, one of a few I've seen some take for/against some players.

[Clyde Frazier]

Agree to disagree I guess. I mean 52% TS is still awful - and 2.7% improvement isn't some drastic change. I'd rather have Clarkson out there jacking up shots than this year's IT and I'm no fan of Clarkson - at least he's less of a hole on defense though. Also, IT would have to come off the bench with them acquiring Hill - and nothing about his attitude suggested he was remotely open to that idea - especially since he seemed dead set on proving his worth given he's up for a new contract. I wanted no part of him on this Cavs team.

All i was saying is he showed improvement on the lakers and i think they gave up on him too quickly. it was as if he wasn't coming back from major surgery. It was weak. Also with lue's indecision on starting lineups who knows how that would've gone. Hill easily could've ended up coming off the bench or they could've started together. JR came off the bench for 19 games this season. But whatever, what's done is done. Let's see if lebron can work his magic one more time here...

You do remember that IT left the Lakers to get hip surgery, right? What was the point in giving him more time if the end result is missing the playoffs for surgery. He played well his first two games with Cleveland, but was awful after that. He'd drive with no idea what he was going to do and no ability to finish. And he completely alienated members of the team, including LeBron and Kevin Love. Alienating Kevin Love as quickly as he did after he started playing was really surprising, they were childhood friends.

The problem Cleveland had post trade is players kept getting hurt. At no point before or after the trade did the Cavs have everyone healthy the same game. Their playoff game 1 starting lineup not only started their first game together all season, they played their first game together all season. And then they lost a starter for half of the series. Their number of different starting lineups this season is now in the 30s. LeBron is the only constant.

He left the Lakers to get the surgery done because they weren't in the playoff race. It wasn't imperative that he get the surgery done right at that moment. It just made sense in that context so he could start the rehab earlier.

[INKtastic]

All i was saying is he showed improvement on the lakers and i think they gave up on him too quickly. it was as if he wasn't coming back from major surgery. It was weak. Also with lue's indecision on starting lineups who knows how that would've gone. Hill easily could've ended up coming off the bench or they could've started together. JR came off the bench for 19 games this season. But whatever, what's done is done. Let's see if lebron can work his magic one more time here...

You do remember that IT left the Lakers to get hip surgery, right? What was the point in giving him more time if the end result is missing the playoffs for surgery. He played well his first two games with Cleveland, but was awful after that. He'd drive with no idea what he was going to do and no ability to finish. And he completely alienated members of the team, including LeBron and Kevin Love. Alienating Kevin Love as quickly as he did after he started playing was really surprising, they were childhood friends.

The problem Cleveland had post trade is players kept getting hurt. At no point before or after the trade did the Cavs have everyone healthy the same game. Their playoff game 1 starting lineup not only started their first game together all season, they played their first game together all season. And then they lost a starter for half of the series. Their number of different starting lineups this season is now in the 30s. LeBron is the only constant.

He left the Lakers to get the surgery done because they weren't in the playoff race. It wasn't imperative that he get the surgery done right at that moment. It just made sense in that context so he could start the rehab earlier.

Did they ever say that one way or the other? I missed it if they did. The point remains, though, he was never 100% this year and no amount of patience was going to get him there. He also managed to alienate teammates and fans while over the 15 games he played in Cleveland.

[Clyde Frazier]

You do remember that IT left the Lakers to get hip surgery, right? What was the point in giving him more time if the end result is missing the playoffs for surgery. He played well his first two games with Cleveland, but was awful after that. He'd drive with no idea what he was going to do and no ability to finish. And he completely alienated members of the team, including LeBron and Kevin Love. Alienating Kevin Love as quickly as he did after he started playing was really surprising, they were childhood friends.

The problem Cleveland had post trade is players kept getting hurt. At no point before or after the trade did the Cavs have everyone healthy the same game. Their playoff game 1 starting lineup not only started their first game together all season, they played their first game together all season. And then they lost a starter for half of the series. Their number of different starting lineups this season is now in the 30s. LeBron is the only constant.

He left the Lakers to get the surgery done because they weren't in the playoff race. It wasn't imperative that he get the surgery done right at that moment. It just made sense in that context so he could start the rehab earlier.

Did they ever say that one way or the other? I missed it if they did. The point remains, though, he was never 100% this year and no amount of patience was going to get him there. He also managed to alienate teammates and fans while over the 15 games he played in Cleveland.

Thomas via LA Times:

"So, it is not like the injury got worse and something else popped up and I needed to get something done. The decision that I made, it felt like it was the best decision for me personally, individually, as a basketball player for the rest of my career."

The whole drama part is just strange. He didn't talk nearly as much in Boston and you didn't hear anything about him splitting the locker room or something. It's pretty clear at this point in LeBron's career that he thrives off drama. He likes being in the spotlight and creating narratives. Things are never "normal" or "boring" when it comes to his teams.

I think it was a mistake, but like I said to the other poster it really doesn't matter at this point. Up to LeBron to go full throttle again and see how far he can take them.

[Doctor MJ]

I think its consistent with what you'e been docking Lebron for. Its inconsistent.

Please be specific. What exactly am I being inconsistent about?

Lebron is consistently docked for rumors that he wants specific teammates around, even when there are reports to the contrary.

Butler is not when he directly states he wants a player around who's clearly detrimental. Butler is actually lauded for leadership, Lebron is docked as a poor leader. It's an inconsistent argument, one of a few I've seen some take for/against some players.

Okay, now go back and look at what my post said that you responded to first on this page:

I know you're being rhetorical here, but I suppose it's worth my just laying out how I'd potentially see this.

There are 2 fundamental areas of importance here:

1 - How much damage with the player do with his action?
2 - Is this part of a greater category of damage? And if so, what's the scale and shape of that collection?

For (1), I really doubt that anything involving Butler advocating for keeping an old vet around on a painfully immature team is going to catch serious damage, but if somehow it does, I will indeed need to think about how that affects his candidacy.

For (2), I don't see any greater category here, and so we'd be talking only (1). That's important because what I'm talking about with LeBron is something of a greater category, and it's because of that that it has the potential affect my ranking so.

Notice that the the inconsistent argument you attribute to me has little to do with what I said.

I won't deny though that I've looked at Butler's an intangibles as boon to the Wolves this season, in contrast to how I see LeBron's. I just don't understand why it's so hard to understand why I would think that. Butler is happy and motivated in Minnesota, LeBron seems really damn unhappy where he is. I'm not saying that mood is everything. There's much in play here. But it's just obvious to me that there are some differences, and it's like I'm talking with a bunch of people who absolutely refuse to see them.

[bondom34]

I won't deny though that I've looked at Butler's an intangibles as boon to the Wolves this season, in contrast to how I see LeBron's. I just don't understand why it's so hard to understand why I would think that. Butler is happy and motivated in Minnesota, LeBron seems really damn unhappy where he is. I'm not saying that mood is everything. There's much in play here. But it's just obvious to me that there are some differences, and it's like I'm talking with a bunch of people who absolutely refuse to see them.

First, we don't know either of these things. We see what people put forth, and some people just show emotion differently. Second you've gone as far back as Kyrie on this, and further at other times. I don't see how you're seeing what you're seeing is what I'm saying. It feels like there's a narrative that's being attempted to be written that's inherently unfair to one side.

[Doctor MJ]

I won't deny though that I've looked at Butler's an intangibles as boon to the Wolves this season, in contrast to how I see LeBron's. I just don't understand why it's so hard to understand why I would think that. Butler is happy and motivated in Minnesota, LeBron seems really damn unhappy where he is. I'm not saying that mood is everything. There's much in play here. But it's just obvious to me that there are some differences, and it's like I'm talking with a bunch of people who absolutely refuse to see them.

First, we don't know either of these things. We see what people put forth, and some people just show emotion differently. Second you've gone as far back as Kyrie on this, and further at other times. I don't see how you're seeing what you're seeing is what I'm saying. It feels like there's a narrative that's being attempted to be written that's inherently unfair to one side.

A lack of 100% certainty is not a reason to refuse to use your best estimate. If something shows me to be wrong in my assessment, then my opinion will change with those facts.

You don't see how I don't see? Read my damn writing man. I didn't say I'd refuse to knock Butler if something he did caused damage. You accuse me of inconsistency while never appearing to read the part where I actually dealt with the part you focused on.

[bondom34]

I won't deny though that I've looked at Butler's an intangibles as boon to the Wolves this season, in contrast to how I see LeBron's. I just don't understand why it's so hard to understand why I would think that. Butler is happy and motivated in Minnesota, LeBron seems really damn unhappy where he is. I'm not saying that mood is everything. There's much in play here. But it's just obvious to me that there are some differences, and it's like I'm talking with a bunch of people who absolutely refuse to see them.

First, we don't know either of these things. We see what people put forth, and some people just show emotion differently. Second you've gone as far back as Kyrie on this, and further at other times. I don't see how you're seeing what you're seeing is what I'm saying. It feels like there's a narrative that's being attempted to be written that's inherently unfair to one side.

A lack of 100% certainty is not a reason to refuse to use your best estimate. If something shows me to be wrong in my assessment, then my opinion will change with those facts.

You don't see how I don't see? Read my damn writing man. I didn't say I'd refuse to knock Butler if something he did caused damage. You accuse me of inconsistency while never appearing to read the part where I actually dealt with the part you focused on.

No, because your stance on Lebron's team and how they're run is well known. This is absolutely something you would kill Lebron for.

[Dr Spaceman]

I won't deny though that I've looked at Butler's an intangibles as boon to the Wolves this season, in contrast to how I see LeBron's. I just don't understand why it's so hard to understand why I would think that. Butler is happy and motivated in Minnesota, LeBron seems really damn unhappy where he is. I'm not saying that mood is everything. There's much in play here. But it's just obvious to me that there are some differences, and it's like I'm talking with a bunch of people who absolutely refuse to see them.

First, we don't know either of these things. We see what people put forth, and some people just show emotion differently. Second you've gone as far back as Kyrie on this, and further at other times. I don't see how you're seeing what you're seeing is what I'm saying. It feels like there's a narrative that's being attempted to be written that's inherently unfair to one side.

A lack of 100% certainty is not a reason to refuse to use your best estimate. If something shows me to be wrong in my assessment, then my opinion will change with those facts.

You don't see how I don't see? Read my damn writing man. I didn't say I'd refuse to knock Butler if something he did caused damage. You accuse me of inconsistency while never appearing to read the part where I actually dealt with the part you focused on.

Just jumping in here to add: LeBron is not exactly difficult to read, even from an outside perspective. He’s pretty much an open book. Lebron is more of a public figure than anyone in basketball right now, and frankly bigger than anyone other than Jordan has ever been. The people who read this forum have likely interacted with LeBron in some form or another every single day over the past decade+ that he’s been playing. While those interactions are not face to face, and there’s some degree of image-crafting LeBron does, it’s almost harder to believe a rabid basketball fan doesn’t have a decent read on his emotional state.

I’ve never been partial to the “body language doctor” side of things, and with Butler obviously we’re taking more of a stab in the dark, but think of it this way: have you ever been surprised by a big career move LeBron has made? It’s all pretty telegraphed, especially when he’s planning on leaving a franchise.

[Doctor MJ]

First, we don't know either of these things. We see what people put forth, and some people just show emotion differently. Second you've gone as far back as Kyrie on this, and further at other times. I don't see how you're seeing what you're seeing is what I'm saying. It feels like there's a narrative that's being attempted to be written that's inherently unfair to one side.

A lack of 100% certainty is not a reason to refuse to use your best estimate. If something shows me to be wrong in my assessment, then my opinion will change with those facts.

You don't see how I don't see? Read my damn writing man. I didn't say I'd refuse to knock Butler if something he did caused damage. You accuse me of inconsistency while never appearing to read the part where I actually dealt with the part you focused on.

No, because your stance on Lebron's team and how they're run is well known. This is absolutely something you would kill Lebron for.

Huh? "No" what? "This" what? My entire post here is saying "I'm not refusing to blame Butler" and all you can get out of that is "You hate LeBron".

I don't know why I bother.

[bondom34]

A lack of 100% certainty is not a reason to refuse to use your best estimate. If something shows me to be wrong in my assessment, then my opinion will change with those facts.

You don't see how I don't see? Read my damn writing man. I didn't say I'd refuse to knock Butler if something he did caused damage. You accuse me of inconsistency while never appearing to read the part where I actually dealt with the part you focused on.

No, because your stance on Lebron's team and how they're run is well known. This is absolutely something you would kill Lebron for.

Huh? "No" what? "This" what? My entire post here is saying "I'm not refusing to blame Butler" and all you can get out of that is "You hate LeBron".

I don't know why I bother.

I never said you hate Lebron, I said it's an inconsistency.

First, we don't know either of these things. We see what people put forth, and some people just show emotion differently. Second you've gone as far back as Kyrie on this, and further at other times. I don't see how you're seeing what you're seeing is what I'm saying. It feels like there's a narrative that's being attempted to be written that's inherently unfair to one side.

A lack of 100% certainty is not a reason to refuse to use your best estimate. If something shows me to be wrong in my assessment, then my opinion will change with those facts.

You don't see how I don't see? Read my damn writing man. I didn't say I'd refuse to knock Butler if something he did caused damage. You accuse me of inconsistency while never appearing to read the part where I actually dealt with the part you focused on.

Just jumping in here to add: LeBron is not exactly difficult to read, even from an outside perspective. He’s pretty much an open book. Lebron is more of a public figure than anyone in basketball right now, and frankly bigger than anyone other than Jordan has ever been. The people who read this forum have likely interacted with LeBron in some form or another every single day over the past decade+ that he’s been playing. While those interactions are not face to face, and there’s some degree of image-crafting LeBron does, it’s almost harder to believe a rabid basketball fan doesn’t have a decent read on his emotional state.

I’ve never been partial to the “body language doctor” side of things, and with Butler obviously we’re taking more of a stab in the dark, but think of it this way: have you ever been surprised by a big career move LeBron has made? It’s all pretty telegraphed, especially when he’s planning on leaving a franchise.

I was surprised at the deadline honestly. And I don't believe we know how much control he has, because from what's reported it was way less than what folks here claim under Griffin at least.

[Doctor MJ]

First, we don't know either of these things. We see what people put forth, and some people just show emotion differently. Second you've gone as far back as Kyrie on this, and further at other times. I don't see how you're seeing what you're seeing is what I'm saying. It feels like there's a narrative that's being attempted to be written that's inherently unfair to one side.

A lack of 100% certainty is not a reason to refuse to use your best estimate. If something shows me to be wrong in my assessment, then my opinion will change with those facts.

You don't see how I don't see? Read my damn writing man. I didn't say I'd refuse to knock Butler if something he did caused damage. You accuse me of inconsistency while never appearing to read the part where I actually dealt with the part you focused on.

Just jumping in here to add: LeBron is not exactly difficult to read, even from an outside perspective. He’s pretty much an open book. Lebron is more of a public figure than anyone in basketball right now, and frankly bigger than anyone other than Jordan has ever been. The people who read this forum have likely interacted with LeBron in some form or another every single day over the past decade+ that he’s been playing. While those interactions are not face to face, and there’s some degree of image-crafting LeBron does, it’s almost harder to believe a rabid basketball fan doesn’t have a decent read on his emotional state.

I’ve never been partial to the “body language doctor” side of things, and with Butler obviously we’re taking more of a stab in the dark, but think of it this way: have you ever been surprised by a big career move LeBron has made? It’s all pretty telegraphed, especially when he’s planning on leaving a franchise.

Yup. Boggles my mind that people just refuse to acknowledge what LeBron is quite purposefully putting out there. People are so stuck in their "but is he pro-LeBron or anti-LeBron" ways that they miss the fact that I'm not either. I'm just evaluating LeBron as I see him, and he like everyone else has a few warts.

But I think I just need to give up the ghost here. What am I doing engaging in conversations about LeBron if I'm going to let myself be so upset with sports fan myopia?

[Doctor MJ]

No, because your stance on Lebron's team and how they're run is well known. This is absolutely something you would kill Lebron for.

Huh? "No" what? "This" what? My entire post here is saying "I'm not refusing to blame Butler" and all you can get out of that is "You hate LeBron".

I don't know why I bother.

I never said you hate Lebron, I said it's an inconsistency.

WHAT is the inconsistency. You keep using pronouns. Spell it out.

[bondom34]

Huh? "No" what? "This" what? My entire post here is saying "I'm not refusing to blame Butler" and all you can get out of that is "You hate LeBron".

I don't know why I bother.

I never said you hate Lebron, I said it's an inconsistency.

WHAT is the inconsistency. You keep using pronouns. Spell it out.

Lebron suggests something to a GM - bad.

Butler does the same - Good/no issue.

I'm done with the point, it's whatever.

On another note a thought for ROY, but Simmons was well ahead. If Utah wins this series and Philly loses, is Mitchell in the running?

[Doctor MJ]

I never said you hate Lebron, I said it's an inconsistency.

WHAT is the inconsistency. You keep using pronouns. Spell it out.

Lebron suggests something to a GM - bad.

Butler does the same - Good/no issue.

I'm done with the point, it's whatever.

But as I keep telling you that I'm not refusing to consider knocking Butler for things like this.

I'm on record in saying that I don't see the situations as equivalent, but I don't know why that is a controversial statement.

More broadly, I'm still feeling a major disconnect between myself and what feels like pretty much everyone else wherein I judge people's performances by actively looking at group dynamics others either don't, or don't do it when it comes to basketball.

On another note a thought for ROY, but Simmons was well ahead. If Utah wins this series and Philly loses, is Mitchell in the running?

I don't have any firm boundaries. I will say though that I'm nervous giving too much credit to Mitchell for carrying the team's offense if in the end it's the Jazz defense that the real edge the team has.

[bondom34]

WHAT is the inconsistency. You keep using pronouns. Spell it out.

Lebron suggests something to a GM - bad.

Butler does the same - Good/no issue.

I'm done with the point, it's whatever.

But as I keep telling you that I'm not refusing to consider knocking Butler for things like this.

I'm on record in saying that I don't see the situations as equivalent, but I don't know why that is a controversial statement.

More broadly, I'm still feeling a major disconnect between myself and what feels like pretty much everyone else wherein I judge people's performances by actively looking at group dynamics others either don't, or don't do it when it comes to basketball.

On another note a thought for ROY, but Simmons was well ahead. If Utah wins this series and Philly loses, is Mitchell in the running?

I don't have any firm boundaries. I will say though that I'm nervous giving too much credit to Mitchell for carrying the team's offense if in the end it's the Jazz defense that the real edge the team has.

Ah, seemed you were totally OK with Butler, nevermind then.
Also now that I check the on/off splits agree on Mitchell.

[Doctor MJ]

Lebron suggests something to a GM - bad.

Butler does the same - Good/no issue.

I'm done with the point, it's whatever.

But as I keep telling you that I'm not refusing to consider knocking Butler for things like this.

I'm on record in saying that I don't see the situations as equivalent, but I don't know why that is a controversial statement.

More broadly, I'm still feeling a major disconnect between myself and what feels like pretty much everyone else wherein I judge people's performances by actively looking at group dynamics others either don't, or don't do it when it comes to basketball.

On another note a thought for ROY, but Simmons was well ahead. If Utah wins this series and Philly loses, is Mitchell in the running?

I don't have any firm boundaries. I will say though that I'm nervous giving too much credit to Mitchell for carrying the team's offense if in the end it's the Jazz defense that the real edge the team has.

Ah, seemed you were totally OK with Butler, nevermind then.
Also now that I check the on/off splits agree on Mitchell.

To be clear, I'm not saying "I agree, Butler's been a clear problem". I'm saying that I wouldn't refuse to consider that Butler has caused damage by advocating for a particular teammate. I also don't necessarily see LeBron's advocating for particular players to be a problem either as a general practice, but where damage is caused and it's easy to see how it flowed downstream from LeBron, he gets knocked.

[bondom34]

But as I keep telling you that I'm not refusing to consider knocking Butler for things like this.

I'm on record in saying that I don't see the situations as equivalent, but I don't know why that is a controversial statement.

More broadly, I'm still feeling a major disconnect between myself and what feels like pretty much everyone else wherein I judge people's performances by actively looking at group dynamics others either don't, or don't do it when it comes to basketball.



I don't have any firm boundaries. I will say though that I'm nervous giving too much credit to Mitchell for carrying the team's offense if in the end it's the Jazz defense that the real edge the team has.

Ah, seemed you were totally OK with Butler, nevermind then.
Also now that I check the on/off splits agree on Mitchell.

To be clear, I'm not saying "I agree, Butler's been a clear problem". I'm saying that I wouldn't refuse to consider that Butler has caused damage by advocating for a particular teammate. I also don't necessarily see LeBron's advocating for particular players to be a problem either as a general practice, but where damage is caused and it's easy to see how it flowed downstream from LeBron, he gets knocked.

Ah, OK gotcha. Misunderstood your stance there (and have disagreed in the past but that's irrelevant here). Also still hate the trade deadline for them.

[dhsilv2]

I never said you hate Lebron, I said it's an inconsistency.

WHAT is the inconsistency. You keep using pronouns. Spell it out.

Lebron suggests something to a GM - bad.

Butler does the same - Good/no issue.

I'm done with the point, it's whatever.

On another note a thought for ROY, but Simmons was well ahead. If Utah wins this series and Philly loses, is Mitchell in the running?

I really don't get how Mitchel is even close enough to be talked about next to Simmons.


5.2 WS vs 9.2
16.7 PER vs 20
2.1 VORP vs 4.5
2.39 RPM 3.2
9.24 WINS 11.45

I'll grant you the plus minus is a bit closer, but these guys aren't on the same tier. The gap is too wide to let a single playoff series decide it. If Utah makes the finals....then maybe we can discuss it, but even then I don't see it unless Mitchel starts being the best player on the Jazz and he's not that.

[eminence]

WHAT is the inconsistency. You keep using pronouns. Spell it out.

Lebron suggests something to a GM - bad.

Butler does the same - Good/no issue.

I'm done with the point, it's whatever.

On another note a thought for ROY, but Simmons was well ahead. If Utah wins this series and Philly loses, is Mitchell in the running?

I really don't get how Mitchel is even close enough to be talked about next to Simmons.


5.2 WS vs 9.2
16.7 PER vs 20
2.1 VORP vs 4.5
2.39 RPM 3.2
9.24 WINS 11.45

I'll grant you the plus minus is a bit closer, but these guys aren't on the same tier. The gap is too wide to let a single playoff series decide it. If Utah makes the finals....then maybe we can discuss it, but even then I don't see it unless Mitchel starts being the best player on the Jazz and he's not that.

I prefer Simmons for the large defensive edge, would take Mitchell by a more slim margin on offense, but I wouldn't say they are a completely different tier. Believe Donovan has the lead when you go to more pure +/- stuff (not xRAPM).