Retro POY '05-06 (Voting Complete)

[Baller 24]

For some reason, I've always considered Kobe's BEST overall season to be 2003, with all the high scoring numbers and records aside. I personally thought it was his best overall season, played very well defensively (actually deserved it and lived up to his reputation as a solid defender), passed the ball, scored, and rebounded, pretty good numbers all-around.

[semi-sentient]

I have a question to Laker fans who were able to watch Kobe play throughout the entire 2006 season. Was that his peak? If he had the 09 team around him back then, would they have won the title (and ignore maturity issues...because I feel he was mature in 06...he just didn't have the team)? How did he play in games where he wasn't dropping 32+?

I think that was his peak as an offensive player, and he was still very strong defensively. The West wasn't as strong as some make it out to be (Lakers would have faced the Clippers had they advanced...), and I think with that version of Kobe along with the '09 team has a great chance of winning with him still being a 30+ PPG scorer.

That team won 45 games with Smush, Kwame, and Walton playing heavy minutes. Replace those guys with Fisher, Bynum/Gasol, and Artest and who is going to stop them? Kobe annihilated the Mavs twice that season, and while his 3rd was a bad shooting performance (5-22), he still got to the line 13 times. The other team to deal with is the Spurs. While they held Kobe in check 2 out of 3 times, with Gasol taking off some of the pressure I'd imagine that Kobe would play a smarter, more effective game. He traditionally plays well against them in the post-season I think that's the biggest hurdle they would face. That would be a great supporting cast for the best scorer in the game, and they'd probably have one of the league's top offenses and be considerably better on defense.

Then they'd face the Heat in the post-season, and there is no way that Wade goes off like that on 05-06 Kobe, whereas Wade won't be slowing him down all that much.

...

Edit: Final ranking - I moved Kobe up because I feel he did his part on that team, but I haven't knocked other stars for having a poor supporting cast in other rankings, so I'm going to stay true to that and do the same for Kobe. There is no question in my mind that he was the best two-way player in the game and the absolute best/most feared offensive player, so his lack of post-season success is a function of having a very poorly put together roster.

1) Kobe
2) Wade
3) LeBron
4) Nash
5) Duncan

I don't know how in the world anyone could leave Kobe out of their top 5. That's punishment for having garbage teammates at its finest. I think he was the consensus best player in the league, and having such a historic scoring season should count for something. It's not like he was gunning because he wanted to. There wasn't any other choice.

[sp6r=underrated]

I should add, since I got bit worked up earlier in this thread and was overly negative, Kobe had a great season. His RS performance was phenomenal and just what LA needed. His PS stats going down was much more part of PJ's design of attacking the weak front-line of Phoenix, and he is a legitimate POY candidate.

[Silver Bullet]

It wasn't smaller than Gasol's role on the 09 Laker team.

He averaged 19 and 10 in the playoffs, to put that in perspective

Yes, let's put that in perspective

Shaq 05-06 playoffs: 18.4 ppg, 9.8 rpb, 33mpg, PER of 19.9
Gasol 08-09 playoffs: 18.3 ppg, 10.8 rpb, 40.5 mpg, PER of 21.9

Not sure how that works for your argument that Shaq played a bigger role than Gasol...?

I think I already addressed this. Shaq was a better player period - a lot of his intangibles do not get reflected.
For example, Wade shot 51% in games Shaq played vs 45% in games Shaq did not play. That is a humoungous difference.
Now you countered with Wade shooting 49% without Shaq in the preceding year.
Well, first of all the preceding year has nothing to do with this, but
1. You're using a very small sample size, 9 games, so even 1 hot quarter of shooting with skew the numbers. Fine. Use it.
2. That still leaves a 2% differential - in your ideal scenario. I'd love for you to show me a similar stat regarding Kobe, when Gasol is not playing. Well, I'll answer my own question, Kobe actually shot 46.7% the year before Gasol came, and 45.3% after.

Then you posted stats that weaken your own argument.
You're saying Gasol basically puts up the same stats as Shaq in 8 more minutes - how does that prove your point ?

Then I posted how the Heat did with and without Shaq:

They were 42-17 with Shaq and Wade
They were 10-13 without Shaq but with Wade
They were 4-1 without Wade but with Shaq

So in every conceivable permutation, Shaq comes out as more valuable to the team winning than Wade.

But you know what - I'll concede. Wade was the slightly better player on the Heat - So ? Well, they were still only a 52 win team, it's not like they won 66 games, and went on a tear. They still had virtual byes the first two rounds. They still wouldn't have gotten by the Pistons without Shaq demolishing them in Game 6 (29 and 19, how many times has Gasol ever done that - in an elimination game no less)

He wasn't All-NBA first team. He wasn't an MVP contender, he wasn't even on the map. He was a very very very distant fourth, and I might not have put enough very's in there - he had 87 points TOTAL, which is slightly more than Steve Nash got first place votes.

So how much cache does 1 great series buy you ? or even 2 great series ?

I'll be generous and count each playoff game as 1000% percent of 1 regular season game. Does that seem fair to you ?

I mean, if I'm really wrong here, please give me a better explanation for Miami being an elite team with Shaq and Wade, being a really good team with Shaq but without Wade and being a lottery team with just Wade - a better explanation than Oh, that team was built for Shaq. Well, why was it built for Shaq if Wade was the franchise player.

And why did Gary Payton and Mourning come to the Heat in the first place ? Do you remember ?

[NO-KG-AI]

I'd like to know how many points Wade scored with and without Shaq, not just the FG%. If Wade was forced to take a lot more shots, that would explain some, but I'm sure that was left out purposely.

[Silver Bullet]

I'd like to know how many points Wade scored with and without Shaq, not just the FG%. If Wade was forced to take a lot more shots, that would explain some, but I'm sure that was left out purposely.

18 shots to 21.

[NO-KG-AI]

So Shaq makes Wade a 9/18 guy instead of a 10/21 kind of guy? Stop the presses people

[Silver Bullet]

So Shaq makes Wade a 9/18 guy instead of a 10/21 kind of guy? Stop the presses people

9/18 instead of 9/21 - your saying a 6% drop in efficiency is irrelevant.

And I'm not saying just Wade, he had the same effect on Kobe too...

And as is typical, your gonna partially refute one point, and act like my whole argument is flawed.

[NO-KG-AI]

I dunno, I just see a lot of clear contradictions from people. I personally had Kobe as the best player this year, because I felt he was flat out, the best player.

But it seems people want to blame supporting casts here, and say Wade only won because of his, but then use Kobe's title year, where the same situation was flipped(Wade carried a garbage squad into the postseason, and Kobe had the title team), they still choose Kobe. I feel like you can't have it both ways, and to be honest Wade's big stat year was more impressive, and his postseason run in the title year was more impressive than Kobe's post season.

As for the FG% thing, I feel like it's an overrated stat to be honest, I never did like how people can differentiate a mediocre efficiency guy and a high efficiency guy on 1 whole shot per game. I mean seriously, the difference between a below 43% scorer and a 50% scorer is 1 shot out of 14. What if 1 guy is more prone to take the end of shot clock, or throw up heaves to end quarters?

I think if it were a full season worth of data I'd be with you, but a few games doesn't matter, because of course when you are missing your second option you're going to put up a few bad shots and not be so well adjusted to it. It's not like going through training camp without that guy and being ready, Shaq was a huge part of the offense, and Wade had to jack up extra shots in his wake.

[ronnymac2]

I have a question to Laker fans who were able to watch Kobe play throughout the entire 2006 season. Was that his peak? If he had the 09 team around him back then, would they have won the title (and ignore maturity issues...because I feel he was mature in 06...he just didn't have the team)? How did he play in games where he wasn't dropping 32+?

I think that was his peak as an offensive player, and he was still very strong defensively. The West wasn't as strong as some make it out to be (Lakers would have faced the Clippers had they advanced...), and I think with that version of Kobe along with the '09 team has a great chance of winning with him still being a 30+ PPG scorer.

That team won 45 games with Smush, Kwame, and Walton playing heavy minutes. Replace those guys with Fisher, Bynum/Gasol, and Artest and who is going to stop them? Kobe annihilated the Mavs twice that season, and while his 3rd was a bad shooting performance (5-22), he still got to the line 13 times. The other team to deal with is the Spurs. While they held Kobe in check 2 out of 3 times, with Gasol taking off some of the pressure I'd imagine that Kobe would play a smarter, more effective game. He traditionally plays well against them in the post-season I think that's the biggest hurdle they would face. That would be a great supporting cast for the best scorer in the game, and they'd probably have one of the league's top offenses and be considerably better on defense.

Then they'd face the Heat in the post-season, and there is no way that Wade goes off like that on 05-06 Kobe, whereas Wade won't be slowing him down all that much.

...

Anyway, right now I'm leaning...

1) Wade
2) Kobe
3) LeBron
4) Nash
5) Nowitzki

I don't know how in the world anyone could leave Kobe out of their top 5. That's punishment for having garbage teammates at its finest. I think he was the consensus best player in the league, and having such a historic scoring season should count for something. It's not like he was gunning because he wanted to. There wasn't any other choice.

Thanks. I definitely agree with the last part. I really have to question your criteria if Kobe isn't a top 5 player in 06, considering that indeed was his peak year.

I know the top three is going to come down to Kobe, Wade, and Duncan. KG, Lebron, Nash and Dirk will be in the running for the next two spots.

[Doctor MJ]

I know the top three is going to come down to Kobe, Wade, and Duncan. KG, Lebron, Nash and Dirk will be in the running for the next two spots.

Haven't been following your conversation, but surprised that you'd be sure Duncan would be in the top 3. This was Duncan playing injured all year and recording the worst regular season of his prime. Yeah he looked good in the playoffs, but his team got upset by Dallas so it's hard to see that counting for too much imho. Your thoughts?

[ronnymac2]

I think in 06, for whatever reason (injury or natural decline), Duncan left his peak. He was still in his prime though, and that's not a small drop from peak back down to prime- at least impact-wise. His production suffered in the regular season, but he still led the league in defensive win shares and defensive rating while anchoring the top defense in the league. He played 80 games for a 63 win team with himself as the best player (no debate).

His regular season proved to me that he was still a top-notch defensive anchor. His offensive stats declined, but I'm not sure if his offensive value suffered enough of a decline in the span of one year so much as to prevent him from being that offensive constant- that back-to-the-basket low-post scorer- that makes him such a great playoff performer. The playoffs come around, and Duncan's offensive stats go back up. He has a hell of a series against the conference champs, too.

I think Tim is better than or equal to Wade and Kobe as players- peak vs. peak. My belief that Tim could still do many of the things that define his peak make it so that he is most definitely in the conversation with Wade and Kobe this year.

Wade is in the discussion for having a great regular season, being the player that he is, and winning a title and finals MVP while playing at the highest level a superstar can play at.

Kobe is in the discussion because this is his peak year, I think he played great basketball in the playoffs, and he had a historical regular season with statistical domination (scoring title with 35 ppg is pretty damn good).

It's going to be close.....

[Doctor MJ]

I think in 06, for whatever reason (injury or natural decline), Duncan left his peak.

Just want to comment on this. Duncan's injury struggles didn't start in 06. Duncan got injured during the '04-05 regular season, and when he came back he really wasn't his full self even though the team won the title. So it's not the case that Duncan was always just coasting in the regular season but turned it on in the playoffs.

To me Duncan was a much stronger player over '06-07 than in either of the previous two years.

[mysticbb]

That team won 45 games with Smush, Kwame, and Walton playing heavy minutes. Replace those guys with Fisher, Bynum/Gasol, and Artest and who is going to stop them? Kobe annihilated the Mavs twice that season, and while his 3rd was a bad shooting performance (5-22), he still got to the line 13 times. The other team to deal with is the Spurs. While they held Kobe in check 2 out of 3 times, with Gasol taking off some of the pressure I'd imagine that Kobe would play a smarter, more effective game. He traditionally plays well against them in the post-season I think that's the biggest hurdle they would face. That would be a great supporting cast for the best scorer in the game, and they'd probably have one of the league's top offenses and be considerably better on defense.

Interesting, you are basing your ranking solely on the idea that Bryant could have done that to the Mavs or that to the Spurs? Bryant wasn't able to finish off the Suns, his PER dropped to 19.9 in the postseason. Bryant against the Mavericks after that 62 game scored an average of 27 ppg on 53 ts%, the Lakers lost 4 out 5, including the worst home loss in the history of the Lakers in LA. The 2007 team was essential the same team as the 2006. No way is Bryant going off like Wade did it against the Mavs. Wade attacked the basket, he didn't beat the Mavericks with long 2pt jumpers in the face of the defender. A complete different style.
And Bryant playing smarter? Since when? Is he playing smart right now? He is still chucked shots even with his injury. Bryant matured a lot since 2006, but back in 2006 he would have played smarter? He didn't play smart against the Piston 2004 (yeah, I know HISTORICAL GREAT DEFENSE), but all of the sudden he is becoming a smarter player in the playoffs 2006.
Your assumption has no ground here.

[Chosen01]

Wade
Kobe
Nash
Lebron

[Silver Bullet]

I dunno, I just see a lot of clear contradictions from people. I personally had Kobe as the best player this year, because I felt he was flat out, the best player.

But it seems people want to blame supporting casts here, and say Wade only won because of his, but then use Kobe's title year, where the same situation was flipped(Wade carried a garbage squad into the postseason, and Kobe had the title team), they still choose Kobe. I feel like you can't have it both ways, and to be honest Wade's big stat year was more impressive, and his postseason run in the title year was more impressive than Kobe's post season.

As for the FG% thing, I feel like it's an overrated stat to be honest, I never did like how people can differentiate a mediocre efficiency guy and a high efficiency guy on 1 whole shot per game. I mean seriously, the difference between a below 43% scorer and a 50% scorer is 1 shot out of 14. What if 1 guy is more prone to take the end of shot clock, or throw up heaves to end quarters?

I think if it were a full season worth of data I'd be with you, but a few games doesn't matter, because of course when you are missing your second option you're going to put up a few bad shots and not be so well adjusted to it. It's not like going through training camp without that guy and being ready, Shaq was a huge part of the offense, and Wade had to jack up extra shots in his wake.

I think that's where the confusion lies.

I did not vote for Kobe in his title year either.

The other thing is, the sample size is 23 games, which is equal to his post-season run.If you're gonna prop him up for his post season run, and not consider that a small sample size, then how can you throw away this data and say it's just a few games.

[semi-sentient]

Interesting, you are basing your ranking solely on the idea that Bryant could have done that to the Mavs or that to the Spurs?

No. You can't read.

Bryant wasn't able to finish off the Suns, his PER dropped to 19.9 in the postseason.

By design, and the Lakers were one rebound away from taking that series, which is hardly something you can pin on Kobe. Finishing off the Suns meant slowing the pace and keeping them from scoring, which is something that the TEAM just couldn't do in the final 3 games of the series.

Bryant against the Mavericks after that 62 game scored an average of 27 ppg on 53 ts%, the Lakers lost 4 out 5, including the worst home loss in the history of the Lakers in LA. The 2007 team was essential the same team as the 2006.

Spare me. We're talking about 2005-06, and we're talking about swapping out the '06 cast with the 09' cast. The results would clearly be different.

Oh, and Odom didn't play in any of those games against the Mavs in 2006-07, so it was basically Kobe with no legit 2nd or 3rd option going against a contending team.

No way is Bryant going off like Wade did it against the Mavs. Wade attacked the basket, he didn't beat the Mavericks with long 2pt jumpers in the face of the defender. A complete different style.

Please. You don't have any idea what you're talking about. Kobe attacked the rim plenty, as Mavs fans know all too well when they watched Kobe single handedly dismantle and demoralize their team with the 62-point game. Even if he doesn't attack the rim as much as Wade, he has the ability to draw more fouls on the perimeter which Wade does not have. Basically, Kobe is way tougher to defend because he doesn't have to rely on getting to the line by way of throwing himself into defenders at the rim.

Anyway...

2005-06:
43 PTS (15-33 FG, 10-12 FT), 5 REB, 2 AST, 4 STL, 1 BLK, 2 TOV
62 PTS (18-31 FG, 22-25 FT), 8 REB, 0 AST, 3 STL, 0 BLK, 2 TOV
24 PTS ( 5-22 FG, 11-13 FT), 4 REB, 4 AST, 3 STL, 0 BLK, 4 TOV

2006-07: (Odom did not play in a single game)
33 PTS ( 9-18 FG, 14-17 FT), 7 REB, 4 AST, 2 STL, 1 BLK, 4 TOV
26 PTS ( 9-20 FG, 8-9 FT), 8 REB, 6 AST, 1 STL, 1 BLK, 3 TOV
26 PTS ( 8-18 FG, 10-11 FT), 3 REB, 5 AST, 0 STL, 0 BLK, 6 TOV
25 PTS ( 6-19 FG, 13-18 FT), 9 REB, 3 AST, 0 STL, 0 BLK, 5 TOV

Yeah, Kobe with his jump-shooting had lots of problems drawing fouls and wouldn't be able to do what Wade did -- even though he basically did.

[mysticbb]

No. You can't read.

Well, I can read, too bad when someone is pointing out your logic here, isn't it? You are writing a whole paragraph about what Bryant could have done to the Mavs or Spurs.

By design, and the Lakers were one rebound away from taking that series, which is hardly something you can pin on Kobe.

Of course not, but punishing Nowitzki for the bad perimeter and transition defense is complete fine for you. Why not punishing Bryant for the lack of rebounding?

That is what I basically got out of the discussion so far, the hyperbole, Nowitzki will get punished for the Mavericks perimeter defense, but Nash or Bryant get a pass for bad rebounding.

Please. You don't have any idea what you're talking about. Kobe attacked the rim plenty, as Mavs fans know all too well when they watched Kobe single handedly dismantle and demoralize their team with the 62-point game.

Yeah, in one game. In the next 5 against the same team it wasn't seen. But Bryant probably just coasted in those games and in the playoffs he would have turned it on, like he is usually doing it, in the finals for example. But whatever, I saw your comment about Nowitzki not being able to make big plays and not impacting the game by helping his teammates to get open shots. Someone with that kind of thinking will not accept facts against his opinion anyway.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Even if he doesn't attack the rim as much as Wade, he has the ability to draw more fouls on the perimeter which Wade does not have. Basically, Kobe is way tougher to defend because he doesn't have to rely on getting to the line by way of throwing himself into defenders at the rim.

I just have to say, I whole-heartedly disagree with everything here. Wade is one of the best in the game at drawing free throws off of the pump fake, and actually lived off of the midrange jumper in the Mavericks series.

Also, being more versatile offensively or having more moves does not automatically = tougher to defend. Shaq, for all the talk of having great footwork, was all about power. Many would still say he was the toughest player to defend in the past 20 years. One great unstoppable move is better than a myriad of very good ones.

In addition, Wade has always been a more willing passer, which makes Kobe admittedly the better player to have when your team lacks secondary options, but imo makes Wade deadlier in a team setting (we saw evidence of this in the 2008 Olympics).

Anyways, don't want to throw this too off track, but my point is this implication that what Wade did against Dallas is replicable by Kobe imo is unfair and cheapening what was actually accomplished. And regular season games are not always the best indicator of future playoff results, here are Wade's performances against Dallas in the regular season that year:

7/19, 23 points in the first meeting
6/13, 16 points in the second meeting

Both losses

Further evidence, here is Kobe's performances against Orlando in the regular season from 08-09:

14/31, 41 points in a loss
10/26, 28 points in a loss

He goes on to have a great Finals against them and win Finals MVP.

[semi-sentient]

I just have to say, I whole-heartedly disagree with everything here. Wade is one of the best in the game at drawing free throws off of the pump fake, and actually lived off of the midrange jumper in the Mavericks series.

As good as Kobe, who has mastered the art of the quintuple pump fake (heh)?

I'll retract my statement about Wade not having that same ability as that was a heat of the moment post, but I don't think he's as good as drawing fouls on the perimeter as Kobe.

In addition, Wade has always been a more willing passer, which makes Kobe admittedly the better player to have when your team lacks secondary options, but imo makes Wade deadlier in a team setting (we saw evidence of this in the 2008 Olympics).

Disagree. Kobe draws more attention from defenses than Wade, and I think he's just as willing when he has competent teammates around him. Kobe has been to 6 NBA Finals, so I don't know how much more proof is needed that he's deadly in a team environment. The fact that he took a backseat to Shaq is a testament to that, and I don't think that should be overlooked just because he played like an idiot in 2004 which was clearly not the norm.

Further evidence, here is Kobe's performances against Orlando in the regular season from 08-09:

14/31, 41 points in a loss
10/26, 28 points in a loss

You're putting too much emphasis on shooting percentages. That's just a part of the overall equation. The Lakers lost those games because Jameer went nuts, not because Kobe shot poorly. The Lakers have won plenty of games where Kobe shoots <45% because he makes up for it in other areas, so I don't think shooting percentages should be singled out.

He goes on to have a great Finals against them and win Finals MVP.

The Lakers won with their defense. Compare how Orlando fared against both the Cavs and Lakers and you'll see that that is clearly the difference.