Player of the Year Discussion (Not Voting) Thread 2009-10

[WorthyBlitz42]

Doctor MJ, who do you think is better when healthy, Yao Ming vs Dwight Howard?

My Top 10 Players list when healthy.

1. Kobe
2. Lebron
3. Wade
4. Paul
5. Deron
6. Durant
7. Yao
8. Dwight
9. Melo
10. Dirk

[Gongxi]

I particularly like the jervis quote - which is consistent with the point that in noisy, data-poor environments, adherence to an objective methodology isn't going to get you much closer, if at all, to the truth than subjective evaluation, regardless of the possible corruption of the latter. unfortunately, in the case of basketball where the publicly available metrics to the casual fan are poorly correlated with whatever we wish to define as "performance", "objective" analysis is simply another form of cognitive failure - albeit one that doesn't tilt towards one's favorite player.

which is why we pat those casual fans who "prize objective analysis" gently on their head and give them a cookie.

Is this this thread's version of "being intolerant of intolerance makes someone likewise intolerant"? I think it is! You prize anecdotes (well, the one that favor your guy, anyway), I prize objectivity. I would've thought with the Enlightenment and all you'd be in the minority here, but I guess you're not. Most of the time, though, there's enough homers for either side to even it out and let analysis shine through. Let's hope this turns out the same way.

There is a case that Durant played better in the RS than Kobe, but that was easily trumped by Kobe's PS performance.

Which is why Kobe leapfrogged Durant in my rankings, from 4 (where he's be through the regular season) to 3. But Kobe didn't play better than Wade in the playoffs and played equal to LeBron so...he's not going to leapfrog them.

So I'm the anti-SilverBullet here: I can see how someone could put LeBron first, I could see how someone could put Wade first. They both make sense. I can see how someone could put Kobe first, too, simply because the Lakers won the championship, but that doesn't make any sense to me. Didn't play better in the RS? Check. Didn't play better in the PS? Check. I guess it's pseudo-intellectual to look at it like that instead of getting into random anecdotal chats about who "quit" when and who "made their teammates better" here.

[An Unbiased Fan]

There is a case that Durant played better in the RS than Kobe, but that was easily trumped by Kobe's PS performance.

Which is why Kobe leapfrogged Durant in my rankings, from 4 (where he's be through the regular season) to 3. But Kobe didn't play better than Wade in the playoffs and played equal to LeBron so...he's not going to leapfrog them.

So I'm the anti-SilverBullet here: I can see how someone could put LeBron first, I could see how someone could put Wade first. They both make sense. I can see how someone could put Kobe first, too, simply because the Lakers won the championship, but that doesn't make any sense to me. Didn't play better in the RS? Check. Didn't play better in the PS? Check. I guess it's pseudo-intellectual to look at it like that instead of getting into random anecdotal chats about who "quit" when and who "made their teammates better" here.

I have Kobe as the 3rd best player in the RS, and the best in the PS.

A few points:
- Kobe was 3rd in MVP voting, and was 1st team everything. He bested Wade in MVP voting, and was a spot higher on the All-D team.

- Kobe also led LA through 4 50+ win teams. That's 4 tough series against quality opponentss, including a tremendous run once he had his knee drained. Did Wade do better against the Celtics individually, sure, but the Celtics were a vastly different team by the time they hit the Finals, and their effort level was night & day. I don't think a great series where his team goes 1-4 in the postseason, trumps Kobe leading LA to a 16-7 playoff record, and Finals MVP. To focus soley on Boston is to neglect the other series, and the overall playoff run.

-I'm not one of those who thinks Lebron quit. I just think it's his style of play which causes him problems in the PS. I do think he's not a great team player, and that's why his team has under-achieved the last 2 years. His ball-dominant style yields great production numbers, but not nearly the impact you would expect. Even more, the 1 on 5 play limits the effectiveness of his teammates and doesn't fully utilize their skills. But specifically to the 2010 season, I thought Lebron was the best in the RS(although his defense dipped a bit), but that in the PS he played as an individual instead of a teammate. His lack of leadership was the most striking and had a direct result on the Cavs defeat. He still got his stats, but he really didn't put much effort intto get anyone else going.

[ElGee]

-snipped-
Same criteria as above, this time top series performers instead of games:

1. Howard v Atl
2. James v Chi
3. Gasol v Uta
4. Richardson v Por
5. Nelson v. Char
6. Bryant v Pho
7. Wade v Bos
8. Nash v Sas
9. Williams v Den
10. Nowitzki v Sas

LMAO. 41.5 MPG 33.7 PPG 7.2 RPG 8.3 APG 52.1 FG% 43.2 3P% 88.1 FT%

Well, it graded out as the 3rd best offensive series (per possession). Sorry, I should have just posted the semi-summary that benefited Bryant. What was I thinking, commenting on the POY candidates and specifically the James controversy without considering that?

[An Unbiased Fan]

-snipped-
Same criteria as above, this time top series performers instead of games:

1. Howard v Atl
2. James v Chi
3. Gasol v Uta
4. Richardson v Por
5. Nelson v. Char
6. Bryant v Pho
7. Wade v Bos
8. Nash v Sas
9. Williams v Den
10. Nowitzki v Sas

LMAO. 41.5 MPG 33.7 PPG 7.2 RPG 8.3 APG 52.1 FG% 43.2 3P% 88.1 FT%

Well, it graded out as the 3rd best offensive series (per possession). Sorry, I should have just posted the semi-summary that benefited Bryant. What was I thinking, commenting on the POY candidates and specifically the James controversy without considering that?

How were the series measured?

[bert stein]

I particularly like the jervis quote - which is consistent with the point that in noisy, data-poor environments, adherence to an objective methodology isn't going to get you much closer, if at all, to the truth than subjective evaluation, regardless of the possible corruption of the latter. unfortunately, in the case of basketball where the publicly available metrics to the casual fan are poorly correlated with whatever we wish to define as "performance", "objective" analysis is simply another form of cognitive failure - albeit one that doesn't tilt towards one's favorite player.

which is why we pat those casual fans who "prize objective analysis" gently on their head and give them a cookie.

Is this this thread's version of "being intolerant of intolerance makes someone likewise intolerant"? I think it is!

nah. it's just "being intolerant of intolerance makes one tolerant". (and, btw, the protagonist here isn't you

You prize anecdotes (well, the one that favor your guy, anyway), I prize objectivity. I would've thought with the Enlightenment and all you'd be in the minority here, but I guess you're not. Most of the time, though, there's enough homers for either side to even it out and let analysis shine through. Let's hope this turns out the same way.

i don't prize anecdotes. with good data, i'd prize objective analysis. when we lack good objective measures that capture all aspects of performance, i recognize that anecdotes are able to encapsulate information that existing objective measures lack. anecdotes are susceptible to homerism. poor measures are susceptible to being poor measures. pick your poison.

[Gongxi]

I have Kobe as the 3rd best player in the RS, and the best in the PS.

A few points:
- Kobe was 3rd in MVP voting, and was 1st team everything. He bested Wade in MVP voting, and was a spot higher on the All-D team.

MVP voting is very team dependent.

- Kobe also led LA through 4 50+ win teams. That's 4 tough series against quality opponentss, including a tremendous run once he had his knee drained. Did Wade do better against the Celtics individually, sure, but the Celtics were a vastly different team by the time they hit the Finals, and their effort level was night & day. I don't think a great series where his team goes 1-4 in the postseason, trumps Kobe leading LA to a 16-7 playoff record, and Finals MVP. To focus soley on Boston is to neglect the other series, and the overall playoff run.

I'm not focusing solely on Boston. You seem to be focusing solely on team accomplishment, though.

-I'm not one of those who thinks Lebron quit. I just think it's his style of play which causes him problems in the PS. I do think he's not a great team player, and that's why his team has under-achieved the last 2 years. His ball-dominant style yields great production numbers, but not nearly the impact you would expect. Even more, the 1 on 5 play limits the effectiveness of his teammates and doesn't fully utilize their skills. But specifically to the 2010 season, I thought Lebron was the best in the RS(although his defense dipped a bit), but that in the PS he played as an individual instead of a teammate. His lack of leadership was the most striking and had a direct result on the Cavs defeat. He still got his stats, but he really didn't put much effort intto get anyone else going.

And years prior, his team overachieved. Makes me think it has more to do with the team than it does with him.

[Sedale Threatt]

I guess it's pseudo-intellectual to look at it like that instead of getting into random anecdotal chats about who "quit" when and who "made their teammates better" here.

No, but another cut-and-paste job from your "Windbag 101" textbook definitely is. You make Dennis Miller look humble.

[WorthyBlitz42]

I guess it's pseudo-intellectual to look at it like that instead of getting into random anecdotal chats about who "quit" when and who "made their teammates better" here.

No, but another cut-and-paste job from your "Windbag 101" textbook definitely is. You make Dennis Miller look humble.

What do you think of my Top 10 players list when healthy?

My Top 10 Players list when healthy.

1. Kobe
2. Lebron
3. Wade
4. Paul
5. Deron
6. Durant
7. Yao
8. Dwight
9. Melo
10. Dirk

[Sedale Threatt]

Ask Gongxi.

[ronnymac2]

Again...What makes Durant clearly a better player than Melo?

In the regular season at least, Durant rates superior to Melo in basically every possible metric. Far better scoring efficiency, better PER, light years better +/-, etc. Why is this stuff irrelevant to you?

And? That doesn't necessarily make Durant better. They are similar scorers in terms of what they can do on the court. Anthony is actually the better passer. They are both good ball-handlers who aren't as good as LBJ/Wade/Kobe. Rebounding is equal; Durant's frontcourt sucks at rebounding, while Anthony actually has rebounders on his team. Durant gets a small edge defensively.

I honestly don't think Durant is clearly better than Melo. That isn't my biggest issue though. My biggest issue is I'm not sure if he's better than Deron, Dirk, or Nash. These guys were complete offensive forces. They killed it in the post-season. They were individual constants for their respective teams because they could anchor an offense through a combination of elite scoring/passing (Deron/Nash) or elite scoring with good passing/mismatch effect (Dirk). Durant only is an elite scorer. What is his effect on offense if he isn't scoring the ball?

[Doctor MJ]

Doctor MJ, who do you think is better when healthy, Yao Ming vs Dwight Howard?

I've responded in your thread.

[Minge]

Article: "Kobe Bryant Adds to his Glittering Playoff Resume, Carries Lakers to Third Straight NBA Finals Appearance" (May 30, 2010)

"Was that Kobe or was that Michael?"--Phoenix Suns Coach Alvin Gentry

"Kobe's so good he he makes incredible normal for us."--Lamar Odom

Kobe Bryant capped off perhaps the best playoff series of his career (33.7 ppg, 8.3 apg, 7.2 rpg, .521 FG%, .432 3Pt FG%, .881 FT%) by pouring in 37 points on 12-25 field goal shooting as his L.A. Lakers defeated the Phoenix Suns 111-103 to win the Western Conference Finals in four games to two. Bryant scored nine points in the final two minutes after the Suns had cut an 18 point Lakers lead to just three. The Suns did their best to encourage Lakers not named Bryant to shoot and most of them fired blanks, with a notable exception being Ron Artest, who poured in a season-high (regular season and playoffs) 25 points on 10-16 field goal shooting. Derek Fisher and Andrew Bynum chipped in 11 and 10 points respectively, while Pau Gasol had a forgettable nine points on 2-9 field goal shooting; memo to the "stat gurus," Spanish fans and others who keep insisting that Gasol is the Lakers' best player: Stop the madness! Gasol is a very skilled big man who generally thrives in a secondary role to Bryant but he is not a "franchise player" unless one expands the definition of that phrase to the extent that it has no real meaning. This is not a knock against Gasol, for there are very, very few true "franchise players." Amare Stoudemire led the Suns with 27 points but he shot 7-20 from the field, grabbed only four rebounds and he had no assists for the fourth straight game--a truly staggering statistic. Steve Nash scored an efficient 21 points on 8-11 field goal shooting and he had nine assists and five rebounds while committing just two turnovers.

Bryant literally limped through the first few games of this postseason. He has been a different player since having his balky right knee drained late in the Oklahoma City series--or, rather, that procedure enabled him to resume being the best player in the game. Bryant has scored at least 30 points in 10 of his last 11 playoff games--and the one time he failed to reach that mark he had a playoff career-high 13 assists in the Lakers' 124-112 game two victory over Phoenix. Bryant has set a host of personal and/or league records:

1. He has tallied at least one 40 point game in five straight postseasons; the only other player who accomplished this feat is Michael Jordan, who had at least one 40 point game in eight straight postseasons (1985-92).
2. Bryant is tied with Hakeem Olajuwon for sixth on the all-time NBA list for 40 point playoff games (11); Michael Jordan leads the way with (38) and Jerry West ranks a distant second with (20) but the next three players are well within Bryant's reach: Shaquille O'Neal (12), Wilt Chamberlain (13) and Elgin Baylor (14).
3. Bryant's game six performance versus Phoenix marks the eighth straight time that he has scored at least 30 points in a potential closeout game on the road, extending a league record that he already held (Baylor ranks second with six such games).
4. During one stretch Bryant scored at least 30 points in six straight playoff wins, which matched the NBA record held by Olajuwon and O'Neal (that streak was snapped when Bryant had 21 points and 13 assists in th game two victory over Phoenix).
5. Bryant now has scored at least 30 points in 75 career playoff games, tying Kareem Abdul-Jabbar for second on the all-time list behind Jordan (109). West (74) ranks fourth, while Baylor (60) is fifth.
6. Bryant recently moved into fourth all-time on the NBA-ABA playoff career scoring list, trailing only Jordan, Abdul-Jabbar and O'Neal. If Bryant continues to score at or near his current pace and the Lakers have deep playoff runs the next two years then Bryant could pass Jordan during the 2012 playoffs.
7. Twice during this postseason Bryant has come within one rebound or one assist of notching his first career playoff triple double. His near triple double effort in game five versus Phoenix (30 points, 11 rebounds, nine assists plus four blocked shots) was his 33rd career 30-5-5 playoff game, moving him past Larry Bird for third on the all-time list. Jordan is the all-time leader in that department (51), with West ranking second (35).

Bryant hit six game-winning shots during the regular season. I still insist that being a clutch player is more significant than just making clutch shots. So much is said about who makes the most last second shots and who has the best shooting percentage in those situations--but such statistics are a bit deceptive if they are not placed in the proper context. Just looking at a player's field goal percentage on last second shots fails to take into account the time remaining when those shots were taken or the distance involved: does making or missing a half court heave really tell us anything meaningful about a player's ability to rise to the occasion in the clutch? It is much more significant to make a succession of winning plays in crunch time the way that Bryant did to close out the Western Conference Finals. For example, consider Bryant's missed game-winning field goal attempt at the end of game five versus Phoenix: the Suns double-teamed Bryant because he is so deadly and that extra defensive attention helped enable Artest to sneak in for the game-winning putback; statistically, that counts as a missed game-winning shot by Bryant and a made game-winning shot by Artest but the play was created by the effect that Bryant had on the opposing defense. Pau Gasol benefited similarly when Bryant missed a potential game-winning shot in game six of the Oklahoma City series.

Bryant's presence on the court and the completeness of his skill set distorts a defense and makes the game easier for his teammates; I have been saying this for years and we are seeing this repeatedly throughout the playoffs: the reason that the Suns played a zone defense in the latter stages of the series was to try to corral Bryant, a point that Coach Gentry made explicit when he declared that he would stop using his "girlie zone" if the Lakers stopped passing the ball to Bryant. Gentry did not mention Gasol, because elite teams do not focus their game plans on dealing with Gasol; you can bet in the upcoming NBA Finals the Boston Celtics will concentrate on trying to contain Bryant and making other people hit shots.

The much discussed Lakers' frontcourt length is certainly an advantage but the Lakers' first and foremost advantage is Bryant's all-around skill set; just watch how many times an action starts with Bryant being trapped and ends with Gasol, Bynum, or another Laker getting an easy shot.

LeBron James earned the regular season MVP with his outstanding performances over the 82 game grind but for the second year in a row Bryant is reasserting himself as the game's best player in the games that matter the most.

[ronnymac2]

And it isn't irrelevant to me. The stats are there for me to look at, and I'll look at them. But this is a situation where I can't just look at the stats and think that Durant is superior to Melo. He might be, but it isn't quite because of the stats.

[WorthyBlitz42]

And it isn't irrelevant to me. The stats are there for me to look at, and I'll look at them. But this is a situation where I can't just look at the stats and think that Durant is superior to Melo. He might be, but it isn't quite because of the stats.

Tell me what you think of my top 10 list when healthy and Yao vs Dwight.

[ronnymac2]

And it isn't irrelevant to me. The stats are there for me to look at, and I'll look at them. But this is a situation where I can't just look at the stats and think that Durant is superior to Melo. He might be, but it isn't quite because of the stats.

Tell me what you think of my top 10 list when healthy and Yao vs Dwight.

Haha Sure. Right after you tell me what those things have to do with this thread.

[WorthyBlitz42]

Ask Gongxi.

Uh why can't you answer instead of being a wuss?

Doctor MJ, who do you think is better when healthy, Yao Ming vs Dwight Howard?

I've responded in your thread.

Thanks even though I didn't like your asnwer, but I think it's relevant in this thread.

[WorthyBlitz42]

And it isn't irrelevant to me. The stats are there for me to look at, and I'll look at them. But this is a situation where I can't just look at the stats and think that Durant is superior to Melo. He might be, but it isn't quite because of the stats.

Tell me what you think of my top 10 list when healthy and Yao vs Dwight.

Haha Sure. Right after you tell me what those things have to do with this thread.

We're talking about the best players in the league right? So I want to know where Dwight truly belongs in this list, because I don't think he's any better than Yao, so I believe he should be in the bottom of the Top 10 instead of the Top of the Top 10. He should be below the 5 spot, not ahead of it.

[ronnymac2]

I'll address Yao vs. Dwight for the 2010 season.

Dwight played for 82 games. Then he played in 14 playoff games. He played well.

Yao Ming didn't play at all.

I'll take Dwight Howard over Yao Ming quite easily this season.

[WorthyBlitz42]

You know, I saw some of your posts about Yao in teh past and it sounds like you hate him to death, so maybe I shouldn't bother. I meant to say if Yao were healthy would he be better than Dwight, but you are right it's not relevant, but I do have a thread about it, but there would no point in asking you to join because you would just spew more of your hate about Yao.