RealGM Top 100 #4

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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#121 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jul 5, 2011 8:30 pm

Gongxi wrote:30 games is very dependent on many factors. I'm sure you'd agree that there are diminishing returns when adding top basketball players- even more so when you consider redundant or competing roles.

We're starting to talk about Shaq now- talking about him in a conversation about the fourth best basketball player of all-time, and he didn't add 18 wins to the 1996-1997 Lakers. Now, he only played 51 games (62%), but he didn't even add 11 wins (62% of 18). The Shaq-less 95-96 Lakers won 53 games, the Shaq-led 96-97 Lakers won 56 games.

LeBron and Wade are probably the two best wing players in the game, but replace one of them with a center that is not one of the two best, but still above average, and the Heat would certainly win more than 40 games (18 fewer than last season's 58). I would consider both to be top players.*

So, consider this me saying that the impact of a top basketball player can easily be less than 18 games, depending on the scenario. And these scenarios are not particularly rare.

EDIT- Hell, replace LeBron with no one, that 09-10 Heat still won 47 games. Great teams have great players, sure. Great players, though, might not necessarily have great teams, so it's best to ignore team success as much as possible for the purposes of this project.


Agree on all counts.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#122 » by Bucksfans1and2 » Tue Jul 5, 2011 8:32 pm

V: Magic
N: West
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#123 » by JordansBulls » Tue Jul 5, 2011 8:33 pm

pancakes3 wrote:Vote: Wilt (ted williams 0 world series, hank aaron, 1 world series win in 25 all-star seasons.)

nominate: West

Just did a debate on baseball and he came out to be 2nd all time behind Ruth.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#124 » by Dr Positivity » Tue Jul 5, 2011 8:38 pm

ronnymac2 wrote:
Dr Mufasa wrote:
ronnymac2 wrote:[quote="Dr Mufasa]Ultimately, you look at the Magic failures and you have to think Duncan is a better fit because he could play d, do pnrs and be an overall intangibles guy while Penny went Lebron on the offense[/quote]

What Magic failures can be blamed on Shaq?[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

None, just think if you had Duncan and Penny you'd have a dominant defense AND offense, while Penny/Shaq had a ridiculous offense but not enough d to win a title. Duncan's d makes him a better fit for Penny, Kobe and Wade in my opinion, not that Shaq wasn't still a huge impact player with those guys.

(Naturally the opposite is true that on a team without star offensive talent but great defensive help, Shaq probably fits better. Duncan won titles that way too, though.)[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Fair point.

I always did wonder what the results would be if Shaq had been on more teams with inferior talent, like the 1994 Orlando Magic. That was Shaq's Most Valuable Year imo, as he dragged crap to 50 wins in just his second year.

He always had loads of offensive talent on his teams, and he had his greatest successes with defensive-minded role players...[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]


Yeah, I don't think the versatility is a *huge* deal, that's why I put it under "less important stuff", but I do consider a little bit that Duncan would be a great fit with literally any star in NBA history because of his PF and C ability (and best eg., for most of the other all time Cs Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Moses, Dwight, if Robinson's teams gets the #1 pick you're in trouble fit wise and have to seriously consider a trade. Duncan goes there and they get a title his 2nd year. Hakeem is the other guy who can probably fit with any big. Likewise, for the all time great PFs Barkley, Malone, Dirk, KG, McHale, etc., if you have KG and have a chance to draft Malone, Barkley, Dirk #1, you might try it but you're worried defensively and about overlap. If you have KG/Dirk/Barkley and draft Duncan, you kill the league. And that doesn't cover the versatility aspect that shows Duncan makes perimeter drivers better with screens and pnr ability, he makes shooters better by inside out passing, and he could probably drag out big men he if played with a post only player, though he hasn't had to rely on his shooting all that much in his career. Shaq for all his ability, makes shooters much better but takes up so much space that he doesn't necessarily help other guys who like to score in the paint like drivers and post up players. But that's more about Duncan than Shaq being a hard player to fit with)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#125 » by An Unbiased Fan » Tue Jul 5, 2011 8:38 pm

RoyceDa59 wrote:Unbiased fan has the potential to be a really good poster, but it's become impossible to overlook his Kobe-boasting hidden agenda in EACH AND EVERY post he makes in any thread, ever. He's very good at masking it too, clearly a smart guy, but utterly annoying to the point where his posts have become unbearable. Maybe that's why I read all of them. Even when he makes a good point now, it must be taken with a grain of salt because he has lost the ability to convince anyone that he's able to view the game through anything but Kobe-tinted glasses. Maybe it's the fact that his user name couldn't be further from the truth that adds to the persona, but none the less, I must applaud his abilities as by and large the best troll on RealGM.

I have no "hidden" agenda. I have been very open about how I feel on RealGM a million times. It's no secret that my view of Kobe or Dirk or West or Isiah, etc. is higher than what many of the posters here feel. But that's no different from Warspite's view of Wilt, or JB's view of MJ, or Regul8r's view of Russell. Some people are Democrats, some are Republicans, and some of us are Independents. imagine how boring a forum would be if everyone agreed on everything.

Perhaps I get under people's skin because I backup what I say, even when I'm the only guy in a thread saying it. That's fine, this is a discussion forum after all. But you can't say I'm outside the norm. The yearly accolades handed out, usually fall in line with my views. When people speak of player comparisons outside RealGM, my views are very close to the mainstream. And honestly, I have never really seen YOU refute what I say in any threads much. If you disagree with me on something, I more than welcome the input.

But it's strange that you would make this post here, when I have really only made one post even involving Kobe directly, which was a Magic/Kobe comaprison(hardly controversial since its been done here and in the media plenty of times). I've spent more time advocating Mikan so far, lol.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#126 » by JordansBulls » Tue Jul 5, 2011 8:51 pm

Magic 29-3 in series with HCA
Bird 24-7 in series with HCA
Wilt 13-5 in series with HCA

Series with HCA vs 50+ win teams and non-50 win teams.

Code: Select all

 vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Wilt:     4-3 (57%)/   9-2 (82%)
Magic:    9-2 (82%)/   20-1 (95%)
Bird:     10-6 (63%)/  14-1 (93%)
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#127 » by Dr Positivity » Tue Jul 5, 2011 8:51 pm

One more thing about Shaq and Duncan. I know, I know, its really just the primes that matter, the rest can be tossed. But you have to love how willing Duncan was to take a backseat this year and let the offense speed up and become Parker/Manu dominated, compared to Shaq's 2009 Suns stint where he was clearly trying to put up one more great stats year and it led to a pretty catostrophic season (To his credit though, I think Porter deserves a lot of blame for pushing forward the Shaq centered offense, from what I've heard. You have Nash and Amare man!) I'd have had Duncan ahead anyways for a handful of reasons (leadership/intangibles, health, versatility), but it's just one more little thing that makes me confident this guy was made to win more than Shaq...
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#128 » by ElGee » Tue Jul 5, 2011 8:53 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Last, I'll second ElGee's notion that both Magic & Bird were among the great offensive minds in history. I have a ton of respect for Bird here, and he'll probably be my choice at #5. However, Magic's above everyone else in this respect. Go look at Magic's shooting efficiency. In every year but one, it was sky high in the playoffs.


To put that into actual numbers: http://www.backpicks.com/2011/07/02/who ... n-part-ii/

I really hope people don't take some of those numbers out of context. They are, after all, just from the box score, and some players have games and playoff tendencies when the scene shifts that extend beyond the box. (eg Nash has the lowest WS/48 but you could pretty easily argue his PS play improved) Nonetheless, that is the career overview from those players "primes."

In Magic's case, despite playing really weak defenses, he basically raised his games looking at his PS career as a whole. I think it's paramount to look at the individual seasons when dealing with sample sizes of 5-13, but overall, you can see Bird's dip in shooting was a little worse than expected (1%, extra, not exactly a meltdown and almost the same drop as Magic) but Magic's overall offensive numbers -- reflected in ORTG -- improve, even though he was already the best of the lot!

In Bird's case, while he's not a guy who has ever posted incredible ORtg's, he literally came out 5th in this group in that stat, behind 4 of the GOAT offensive players and Dirk. So even statistically, Bird's playoff "failures" are greatly exaggerated to me, as I detailed year-by-year in the RPOY.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#129 » by ronnymac2 » Tue Jul 5, 2011 8:54 pm

Dr Mufasa wrote:One more thing about Shaq and Duncan. I know, I know, its really just the primes that matter, the rest can be tossed. But you have to love how willing Duncan was to take a backseat this year and let the offense speed up and become Parker/Manu dominated, compared to Shaq's 2009 Suns stint where he was clearly trying to put up one more great stats year and it led to a pretty catostrophic season (To his credit though, I think Porter deserves a lot of blame for pushing forward the Shaq centered offense, from what I've heard. You have Nash and Amare man!) I'd have had Duncan ahead anyways for a handful of reasons (leadership/intangibles, health, versatility), but it's just one more little thing that makes me confident this guy was made to win more than Shaq...


Shaq took a backseat to Wade, in Shaq's prime no less. As you alluded to, 2009 was Porter's fault. Shaq wasn't just trying to put up stats.

It's to Duncan's credit that he did what he did of course. No argument there.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#130 » by An Unbiased Fan » Tue Jul 5, 2011 8:55 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:My #4 is Magic, and it's pretty easy.

First, everyone who doesn't understand Magic over Bird should review the RPOY project. I know it came as a shock to a lot of the participants that Magic did so much better than Bird in their own votes.

It's important to understand the Celtics' history of underachieving in the playoffs. The Celtics had the best record in the league 6 out of Bird & Magic's first 7 years in the league (the lone exception was the '82-83 76ers - so the Lakers never had the best record). Yet the Lakers won just as many titles (3), and had more Finals appearances. Now, the East was stronger back then, and you should factor that in. However, there simply isn't any team in history that got upset with the regularity that Bird's teams did.

This is not to say that Bird was a secret choker. Far from it. Choking is a vastly overrated concept in basketball. However, the ability to thrive through the increased defensive attention of the playoffs is something that varies from player to player, and Bird did have a tendency to see his numbers fall in the playoffs, along with some times of really weak shooting efficiency.

People will point to some injuries he had, and maybe that was the issue, but that doesn't really change anything for me. Injuries are part of what makes a player what he is, and Bird was frankly far more injury prone than Magic.

Last, I'll second ElGee's notion that both Magic & Bird were among the great offensive minds in history. I have a ton of respect for Bird here, and he'll probably be my choice at #5. However, Magic's above everyone else in this respect. Go look at Magic's shooting efficiency. In every year but one, it was sky high in the playoffs. Well north of an efficiency hound like Stockton - but never with the same hesitation to transition into volume scoring as needed. We saw it in the legendary game from his rookie season, and we saw a more gradual transition in this way as his career progressed and the other scoring talent on the Lakers diminished.

Truly, Magic was a guy who saw himself accurately as one of 5 teammates on the floor, with more scoring talent than most, but not so much more that he should call his own number in ridiculous quantities if it could be helped.

I feel like Bird maybe could have been the same way if he had not started known for his scoring ability. While he never shot at the ultra-volume levels of a Jordan or a Kobe, he absolutely played a role where he continued shooting even when he wasn't having great success at it, and his teammates were. Perhaps this is what he was told to do, but either way, in terms of maximizing the robustness of the offense, I'll take what Magic gave over what Bird gave.

Vote: Magic Johnson
Nomination: Kevin Garnett

Really great points. In the #3 thread I thought it would be a Wilt vs Magic showdown, but many of the arguments made so far have swayed me to Magic over Wilt & Shaq. I already had Magic over Bird, and unlike KAJ, Kobe's longevity isn't high enough to overtake Magic. Duncan, while very consistent, didn't really dominate like the others, IMO. So I'm sticking with my origonal thought, it's Magic.

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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#131 » by Baller 24 » Tue Jul 5, 2011 8:55 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:Dream could be mentioned, too, but that's the thing. You can make a good case for all the top-tier guys. My thing with him, as beautiful as he was to watch, and for all the great results, he didn't seem to be at that destroy-everything-in-his-path level for nearly long enough.


As a Rockets fan, I've gone over pretty much every Olajuwon documentary out there, his turn might be a little early, but I guess he can come into arguments soon.

First of all, he's a very fast learner. When he first came to the United States, and ultimately choose Houston as the college he wanted to attend and play basketball for he was offensively inept. He was brought to Houston to do three things: Defend, block shots, and rebound. Which he did very well, but a lot of his physical gifts really went overlooked.

Some of those physical gifts were his beautiful footwork and his overpowering strength (he wasn't the very biggest physical specimen at the time). He wanted to evolve as a basketball player, so he spent the '83 summer with Moses Malone. Malone basically showed him simple ways of using his power to put the ball into the basket, which eventually later in the '83 NCAA season helped him exploit his physical gifts with his offensive skill.

He had immediate impact, and we saw how far a talented surrounding him can go in '86, but after Sampson went down, Houston really didn't have any supporting offensively or defensively. He still though anchored some fine defenses despite everything about the Rockets supporting talent, and although he didn't make it to the playoffs or had a few early exits, he was very much so dominant.

Early part of Olajuwon's career where he was winning rebound titles and learning to score more on his offensive volume, he was very much so dominant, maybe it was the lack spotlight as compared to Ewing, or maybe it was how irrelevant the Rockets were. You can clearly argue that he his case statistically and physically, the public eye didn't see it until around '92, but I can assure you that he was very much so capable of being in that "destroy-everything-in-his-path" mode.

The Rockets didn't really help his case in the early 90s, the management sucked donkey balls, to where they went public stating that he "gave up" on the season and faked an injury. Obviously, Olajuwon being a very strict religious Muslim found that offensive, and went open with trade demands. Guess in the end they worked it all out, and he was good to go.

Don Chaney pretty much laid the blueprint down for Houston, they had the shooters, energy, and some awesome role players, BUT I'll say it again, I don't think any team was capable of stopping them in the west, aside from the Seattle Supersonics. It's not that he didn't have the dominant season, but it's more that he didn't have the team to HELP him further those dominant seasons. You can definitely put him in the mix with these next upcoming players, clearly on the level of Shaq and Duncan.

Shaq once stated "It all started with Hakeem. In my mind, it all ends with Hakeem. He's No. 1. No question. Always will be. I saw it up close.", I think that should be taken into consideration, he didn't necessarily have the advantage to dominate earlier in the season, but supporting casts come into play for a lot of things. And if we're valuing his individual skills as a basketball player, and his ability to contribute even to his fullest to show the impact, he's definitely up there.

Anyways, I've decided on my vote, Wilt Chamberlain out of the bunch is the best player we've seen play, especially in '67, I don't think anyone posses as much talent and skill as this man, arguably the greatest athlete to play the sport of basketball, and his ability to dominate in different styles and arrays shouldn't go unnoticed. He's below Abdul-Jabbar, but if we're drafting players without knowing ANYTHING about them, I'd take Chamberlain over anyone in the history of the game, and that should at least mean something.

Vote: Wilt Chamberlain

Nominate: Kevin Garnett
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#132 » by JordansBulls » Tue Jul 5, 2011 9:03 pm

Baller 24 wrote:but if we're drafting players without knowing ANYTHING about them, I'd take Chamberlain over anyone in the history of the game, and that should at least mean something.



Explain this to me? If he couldn't win with the team that drafted him why would you take him over guys who turned teams into dynasties? He basically had to be traded twice to win titles and even adjust his game.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#133 » by Baller 24 » Tue Jul 5, 2011 9:09 pm

JordansBulls wrote:Explain this to me? If he couldn't win with the team that drafted him why would you take him over guys who turned teams into dynasties? He basically had to be traded twice to win titles and even adjust his game.


Read it again, I stated without knowing anything at all, drafting from sctrach between any group or pool of players.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#134 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jul 5, 2011 9:11 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:That's a sick thought that the guy who averaged 50 could have been more dominant, but I tend to agree with you. Personally, I think the biggest reason he didn't play to his strengths were more along the lines of ego and insecurity, and those were his fatal flaws.

Wilt just couldn't handle any notion that his success was strictly the result of his massive genetic gifts. I doubt he realized what he was doing -- and it didn't help that he rarely had a coach who could show the way -- but in hungering for acceptance as a complete player, he screwed himself out of being what he should have been.

By contrast, Russell's limitations, and the fact he was a late bloomer who didn't have even one percent of the attention Wilt got in development, could actually be seen as his ultimate blessings.

He figured out what he was good at, in almost total anonymity, and worked with tireless effort to develop it, instead of being the mixed bag that Wilt was, always changing his game every few years. Wilt could do that because he was so gifted, but also because I don't think he had true confidence in himself and his abilities.

With all of that said, I think Wilt's '67 season could be the best individual campaign in basketball history, just by the numbers alone. It doesn't surprise me that Wilt, for all his failures, was also the cornerstone of the two most successful teams in NBA history before Jordan's Bulls.


Great insights.

Sedale Threatt wrote:It didn't happen as much as it should have. But when Wilt got it right, he really got it right. For that reason alone he deserves to be in the Top 5, let alone Top 10. (With all due respect, as one of the two or three most knowledgeable posters we have, you're really over-thinking that one.)


Hehe, well thank you for the kind words. I may very well be overthinking things - it's one of my issues.

When you say "for that reason alone he deserves", to me that screams "philosophy". As in, everyone has to decide some things for themselves where there is no single right answer. Peak vs Longevity is one of the biggies.

If you rate Peak high enough, then what you say makes total sense. I think though it should be understandable where I'm coming from. I'm not coming into this saying "No way is Wilt Top 10!", I'm just comparing him to people and having a hard time putting him over other guys. I don't think it would shock anyone for someone to hear someone say Duncan > Shaq or to say Shaq > Wilt, but pretty much no one applies transitivity and says Duncan > Wilt. Once you do, it becomes pretty easy to see how Wilt might miss out on the top 10.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#135 » by Baller 24 » Tue Jul 5, 2011 9:12 pm

Need some information, on why Jerry West? He's blowing the nominations out of the water, but I just can't grasp West this early, Oscar too for that mater.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#136 » by ronnymac2 » Tue Jul 5, 2011 9:13 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:I feel like Bird maybe could have been the same way if he had not started known for his scoring ability. While he never shot at the ultra-volume levels of a Jordan or a Kobe, he absolutely played a role where he continued shooting even when he wasn't having great success at it, and his teammates were. Perhaps this is what he was told to do, but either way, in terms of maximizing the robustness of the offense, I'll take what Magic gave over what Bird gave.


I don't mind taking Magic over Bird on offense.

But I think in the situation you provided, it's difficult for a player to just actively look to not shoot anymore because he hasn't shot well for a little while. The player is thinking "I haven't shot well yet." Part of the greatness of these guys is that they kept at it and kept pressure on the defense and kept trying to figure things out. You can only see if you've figured things out if you shoot. And I'd rather have a Larry Bird who has figured things out than a passive Larry Bird.

That's why I had such a big problem with LBJ in the 2011 Finals.

Bird may have not shot well in certain series, and he should be nicked for that. But I don't think the fact that he kept shooting should be held against him, even relative to Magic. Without that mentality, Bird isn't Bird. I don't want to keep Bird in a shell.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#137 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Jul 5, 2011 9:17 pm

Baller 24 wrote:[ but if we're drafting players without knowing ANYTHING about them, I'd take Chamberlain over anyone in the history of the game, and that should at least mean something.


So we should rate a guy higher because if we knew less we'd wrongfully assume he was better than he actually was? :P
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#138 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Jul 5, 2011 9:21 pm

Baller 24 wrote:
Sedale Threatt wrote:Dream could be mentioned, too, but that's the thing. You can make a good case for all the top-tier guys. My thing with him, as beautiful as he was to watch, and for all the great results, he didn't seem to be at that destroy-everything-in-his-path level for nearly long enough.


As a Rockets fan, I've gone over pretty much every Olajuwon documentary out there, his turn might be a little early, but I guess he can come into arguments soon.

First of all, he's a very fast learner. When he first came to the United States, and ultimately choose Houston as the college he wanted to attend and play basketball for he was offensively inept. He was brought to Houston to do three things: Defend, block shots, and rebound. Which he did very well, but a lot of his physical gifts really went overlooked.

Some of those physical gifts were his beautiful footwork and his overpowering strength (he wasn't the very biggest physical specimen at the time). He wanted to evolve as a basketball player, so he spent the '83 summer with Moses Malone. Malone basically showed him simple ways of using his power to put the ball into the basket, which eventually later in the '83 NCAA season helped him exploit his physical gifts with his offensive skill.

He had immediate impact, and we saw how far a talented surrounding him can go in '86, but after Sampson went down, Houston really didn't have any supporting offensively or defensively. He still though anchored some fine defenses despite everything about the Rockets supporting talent, and although he didn't make it to the playoffs or had a few early exits, he was very much so dominant.

Early part of Olajuwon's career where he was winning rebound titles and learning to score more on his offensive volume, he was very much so dominant, maybe it was the lack spotlight as compared to Ewing, or maybe it was how irrelevant the Rockets were. You can clearly argue that he his case statistically and physically, the public eye didn't see it until around '92, but I can assure you that he was very much so capable of being in that "destroy-everything-in-his-path" mode.

The Rockets didn't really help his case in the early 90s, the management sucked donkey balls, to where they went public stating that he "gave up" on the season and faked an injury. Obviously, Olajuwon being a very strict religious Muslim found that offensive, and went open with trade demands. Guess in the end they worked it all out, and he was good to go.

Don Chaney pretty much laid the blueprint down for Houston, they had the shooters, energy, and some awesome role players, BUT I'll say it again, I don't think any team was capable of stopping them in the west, aside from the Seattle Supersonics. It's not that he didn't have the dominant season, but it's more that he didn't have the team to HELP him further those dominant seasons. You can definitely put him in the mix with these next upcoming players, clearly on the level of Shaq and Duncan.

Shaq once stated "It all started with Hakeem. In my mind, it all ends with Hakeem. He's No. 1. No question. Always will be. I saw it up close.", I think that should be taken into consideration, he didn't necessarily have the advantage to dominate earlier in the season, but supporting casts come into play for a lot of things. And if we're valuing his individual skills as a basketball player, and his ability to contribute even to his fullest to show the impact, he's definitely up there.

Anyways, I've decided on my vote, Wilt Chamberlain out of the bunch is the best player we've seen play, especially in '67, I don't think anyone posses as much talent and skill as this man, arguably the greatest athlete to play the sport of basketball, and his ability to dominate in different styles and arrays shouldn't go unnoticed. He's below Abdul-Jabbar, but if we're drafting players without knowing ANYTHING about them, I'd take Chamberlain over anyone in the history of the game, and that should at least mean something.

Vote: Wilt Chamberlain

Nominate: Kevin Garnett


Good post. No question Dream was phenomenal; easily one of my favorite non-Lakers of all time. He provided a good reason to keep watching the playoffs when L.A. was in the toilet post-Magic.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#139 » by Sedale Threatt » Tue Jul 5, 2011 9:24 pm

ElGee wrote:In Magic's case, despite playing really weak defenses, he basically raised his games looking at his PS career as a whole. I think it's paramount to look at the individual seasons when dealing with sample sizes of 5-13, but overall, you can see Bird's dip in shooting was a little worse than expected (1%, extra, not exactly a meltdown and almost the same drop as Magic) but Magic's overall offensive numbers -- reflected in ORTG -- improve, even though he was already the best of the lot!


This same phenomenon was why Jordan was such a lock for me. The man authored the greatest scoring average in NBA history, and actually managed to improve by 10 percent, with no drop in efficiency, in 179 playoff games -- more than two full NBA seasons. That's a phenomenal achievement.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 #4 

Post#140 » by An Unbiased Fan » Tue Jul 5, 2011 9:24 pm

Baller 24 wrote:Need some information, on why Jerry West? He's blowing the nominations out of the water, but I just can't grasp West this early, Oscar too for that mater.

West is a Top 5 shooter ever, IMO. His FG% was much higher than the league average back then, and that's with Jerry shooting from the perimeter for the vast majority of his shots. His volume scorer was truly amazing considering the lack of 3pt line. Defensively, his was arguably the best guard defender of his era. 9 FInals, 10 All-NBA 1st teams...

Hard to argue against him at this point of nominations.
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