RealGM Top 100 List #6

[An Unbiased Fan]

I'm sorry, but Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan's rosters changed quite a bit too. Larry's cast was still consistently better than any of those 3, yet he had the least playoff success.

Much like with Russell, I'm starting to hear the "intangibles" argument again too. But unlike Russell, Bird's impact on playoff success doesn't support the notion that his "intangibles" make him any better than Wilt, Kobe, Shaq, or Duncan.

I hear references to off-the court issues, perhaps because on-the-court, Bird isn't the better player. Offensively, Bird was great, there's no doubt about that. However, so were Shaq & Kobe. Defensively, all 3 were better than Bird. In their prime 12 year stretches of their career, they all had more playoff success.

Honestly, what's Bird's real argument here outisde of his legend, or historic association to Magic? His MVP Shares? I mean they're great, but they and the HCA he had throughout the 80's didn't translate into more rings(oops, I brought up HCA again...). In Bird's vaunted "peak", he played mediocre at best defense, and didn't lead Boston to any more playoff success than Shaq did from 00-02', Kobe did from 08'-10', or TD did from 03'-05'. I would also say all 3 of those guys were better 2-way players in their peaks too.

I have a lot of respect for Bird. But his legend is overtaking his reality.

Basically the ones voting against Bird have like a completely different criteria

-HCA and Supporting Cast - So how great Bird was playing doesn't matter. All that matters is his team failed.
- Offense and Defense - Let's judge players on how good they are as two way players. I don't even understand this one - how is Jerry West not better than Magic Johnson?
- Bird's shot was off a couple times in the playoffs- The ones advocating likely haven't watched Bird because he impacted the floor in many more ways than scoring ( There's a reason he's a lot better than Dirk.)

Vinsanity, my first post in this thread went into a lot of detail. I covered way more than just those points.

Also....
1) I brought up supporting cast in reply to Fencer's post.

2) There are two sides of the court, so yes, I take into account a player's offense AND defense. It speaks to overall impact, and ability.

Jerry West isn't better than Magic because his overall imapct isn't greater than Magic's. I did however bring up Magic's defense when he was being compared to KAJ.

It's all about balance.

3) I don't know why you assume people haven't watched Bird play. In fact, the reason I speak so frankly about Bird is because I did see him play. I grew up on Magic & Bird.

[MacGill]

I'm not denying that Kobe and Shaq were a great combo when they weren't feuding. But I think Kobe and Bird would have anchored at least as good a defensive team, and an equally great offensive one as well, and also rebounded very well. Bird could play with other guys who shone with the ball in their hands -- McHale! -- so that's not a problem.

Kobe/Duncan, Kobe/Hakeem, Kobe/Shaq, and Kobe/Bird are all the stuff championships are made of, frankly.

LOL, yes McHale, if only Shaq had his up and under we'd already be done #6

But I am more curious though with how you think Bird would handle Kobe's dominance? This is a big reason of what led up to the Kobe>Shaq feuds and no disrepect to Mr. McHale but he isn't on Kobe's level as a superstar partner.

We see it today with Westbrook/Durant, and only after many stars have gone without winning or have nothing left individually to prove are they willing to make the sacrafices to mesh like Birds's teams.

This is why I was bringing up the point because in Shaq's case, I'd agrue that he was one of the only top dog's, for some time, to keep certain players in line because of his dominance. When your 7'1 340 pound MDE center speaks, you tend to listen, and for Kobe it was for awhile. Kobe is an amazing talent but when you possess a talent of a player, basically on the same tier as you are, you can't help but let it out.

Bird never played with anyone of Kobe's stature. All-Stars yes, HOF'ers yes, but not superstars on another tier higher.

Magnify Durant and Westbrook 20 times and add Bird & Kobe's competitive juices. No disrepect to #33, but Kobe was not made to fit that role playing side with Shaq and I am sure that was how he was made to feel. I am also sure that mentally he knew what he was capable of.

So how would Bird of handled that situation if Westbrook is now Kobe and where Kobe can say I have just as much talent as you do, I'll take the final shot score 30+ etc. I'll be honest, I don't see it being as successful as an inside out combo.

I also think that Shaq deserves some credit making it work for as long as it did given 3 B2B2B titles came out of it. By that time, I am sure both easily thought wherever they went titles would come. 3 more were won after that fact.

If Shaq had Duncan's personality they probably have won 6 but I still can't absolutely write-off Shaq as a bad teammate because two top 10 superstars butted heads.

[fatal9]

Bird was thought of as one of the best perimeter team defenders in the early/mid 80s (heard announcers even call him THE best). Painting him as a poor defender (especially from '80-'84) is revisionist history, when EVERYONE thought of him as a great team defensive player (and watching his games tells the same thing). And he damn sure was more consistent game to game than Kobe was/is defensively. His big problem was guarding quick forwards like Dantley, Worthy in the post, but everyone at his size had a problem defending them, if you let those guys operate one on one for 5 seconds they were scoring on you. Man defense, it's Kobe but team defense (which matters more game to game imo) it's Bird. I do think however Kobe's defense in the last few playoff runs ('08-'10) has been underrated and so has his defense in some seasons (particularly '08), but through the regular season? He easily causes more defensive breakdowns than any other all-defensive member (followed by a scowl at one of his teammates). Overall Kobe is the better defender but not by this huge margin you're creating.

Bird is also a much much better offensive player in context of the team. Way better on the boards. Even as a scorer, Bird's scoring numbers are very very impressive considering a) his efficiency, b) the fact he had to share the ball with other talented players (we know Kobe has a problem doing this), c) better scorer in context of team because of his catch/shoot ability and d) shot selection/IQ. Kobe is my favorite player in the league right now, respect him, consider him top 10, but he is outclassed in almost every category, only thing he has is longevity. It really isn't that hard to tell, no matter how many made up categories/stats you can cook up (ie. record against opponent with xyz srs while having hca). Kobe simply wasn't as good as Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Bird and the minute you start rating players ahead of other players who they are/were clearly worse than, all-time lists become meaningless to me (special lol @ sneaking Kobe in front of Shaq, would love to hear that argument).

[penbeast0]

Coming into the home stretch, the results look like a runaway. Even combining all the non-winning voters won't dethrone the Bostonians.

Bird 12
Shaq 4
Duncan 3
Kobe 2

Nominations

Garnett 11
LeBron 4
Barkley 3
Mikan 2
DRob 1

[fatal9]

Vote: Shaq
Nomination: Barkley

[rrravenred]

In which case, I won't bother to re-iterate my vote (Bird) but will say that from the discussions, the first half of the top 10 is nowhere near as settled as it used to be. How the bottom half shakes out will be a really interesting exercise over the coming week or so...

[pancakes3]

In which case, I won't bother to re-iterate my vote (Bird) but will say that from the discussions, the first half of the top 10 is nowhere near as settled as it used to be. How the bottom half shakes out will be a really interesting exercise over the coming week or so...

i'm already dreading the #11-16 discussion especially since some on this board like to pretend that KG's 2005-7 seasons never happened.

[rrravenred]

I'm expecting some Obi Wan tactics...

"These aren't the seasons you're looking for..."

[RandomKnight]

vote Kobe
Nominate Nash