RealGM Top 100 List #8

[Vinsanity420]

Successfully defending your championship is very important, it validates the one before and proves it wasnt a fluke IMO. All the greats except for Bird,Duncan, andWilt have sucessfully defneded their Crown.

You're right, Pau Gasol is one of them.

[Gongxi]

Good discussion.

I'm gonna go ahead and vote for Olajuwon while nominating Robinson.

[Vinsanity420]

I actually think Hakeem vs Kobe is only in Hakeem's favor because he's... bigger. He's a big man and can impact the game defensively in ways Kobe isn't physically capable of doing.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Baller, the obvious questions in this tangent are:

(1) What the hell does ast% represent?

Assists are a fuzzy, flawed stat. We're more interested in creation. Not all assists are even remotely comparable. They are a decent ballpark measure, but we know these (modern) superstars quite well and we shouldn't even have to cite raw assists, let alone "ast%."

I would certainly agree that not all assists are created the same. Some guys get them because they always have the ball in their hands, while others are really good at hitting the open man. When I speak to AST% or PTS%, I'm referring to on-court offensive produciton. Like with any stat, it must be put into context. But it does speak to the overall offensive load a player is carrying, and his responsiblities within the system.

Now not everyone player has the same quality of offensive impact, which is why a Bird will be comparable to Lebron, even though Bron's PTS% / AST% numbers dwarf his. The stats give us the insight that Bron was carrying a bigger offensive burden with the Cavs, but that it didn't result into greater offenses than what Bird had in Boston. Quantifying overall offensive imapct is just as tricky as measuring defensive imapct. So I'm just trying to draw on as many sources of info that I can.

(2) If a player outperforms someone else in a single PS series, what does it matter?

Paul Pierce is better than 2008 Kobe Bryant I suppose.

No, certainly not. But if we're talking 4 straight playoff series that were almost the real Finals, I would say it's noteworthy. Hakeem vs Shaq and Hakeem vs DRob certainly factor into his lore. When we speak to era dominance, how the best played vs the best does seem to have play. Even when they're not guarding one another(Magic vs Bird for example).

(4) How do we interpret raw stats in the context of teammates and team performance?

It's lovely if Adrian Dantley puts up amazing stats, but an offensive player's worth is determined by how well he lifts the entire performance of the offensive SYSTEM. See: Johnson, Magic. Bird, Larry. Nash, Steve. Etc.

That's a great point, and actually what I was trying to show with Bryant. The dual role he had as volume scorer & facilitator on great offenses was extremely impactful on offense. I feel Kobe's skills as a floor general go underrated. He's not as good of a passer as the guys you listed, but he's great at setting the offense, managing the tempo, and overseeing spacing. Even in the 3-peat days, Kobe's offensive role, production, and impact were critical.

For the record, I have Bryant's best offensive season as 2010 (marred a little by injury) and Hakeem's as 1995. Late peaks FTW!

Normalized per 75 pos
10 Bryant: 27.0 pts 5.0 ast +2.4% TS 109 ORtg (Team 108.8)
95 Hakeem: 26.8 pts 3.4 ast +3.4% TS 110 ORtg (Team 109.7)

PS
10 Bryant: 29.3 pts 5.5 ast +2.4% TS115 ORtg (Team 112.8 vs. 105.9 Opp DRtg)
95 Hakeem: 30.5 pts 4.2 ast +0.%9 TS 110 ORtg (Team 115.2 vs 107.5 Opp DRtg)

So even starting from here, it's hard to see some large edge...

I would rank around 6 of his seasons above 2010 offensively. He did start great that season. His work in the post was elite, but he was never 100% after the injury and his efficiency took a tumble.

Do you have all 3 guy's career years by chance. If not, perhaps I can pull those up. I would think that throughout the majority of their careers, Kobe has a sizable advantage. I'm also interested to see how TD compares to Hakeem.

[ElGee]

^^^

re: assists. Draw all the sources, but then go deeper. And keep it in a holistic perspective. Once you know the assist data, if you're familiar with the teams, players, roles, etc. 4.2 or 5.1 apg doesn't really mean anything anymore. Especially vs. post players I would think...

re: Outplaying in a series. I don't *think* it should really be part of Hakeem's lore. What's relevant is that he played great D on Ewing and Karl Malone, and that if you regard Robinson highly, he really got the best of him. But we don't need to take it further in some narrative driven way like "He pwned Shaq and everyone else!!" Not to mention he was matching up with those guys...

Kobe never matched up with Duncan, so it seems such a bizarre (or arbitrary) place to go. SA leaned on Shaq, that freed Kobe up, and he took advantage. That happens -- as was the case with Cedric Maxwell in the 1981 Finals. Those few games, which are matchup dependent, really do very little to alter a player's season and do nothing to change who he is as a basketball player. Playoffs are matchup dependent, which is one reason why we shouldn't put too much emphasis on any one series. (Opp sample size = 1!)

And for anyone in the crowd of placing emphasis on the Finals, be consistent and notice Kobe's poor Finals performances. (You are right, which makes my point, that some of those series were de facto Finals.)

re: Kobe floor general. Clearly his creation/decision making has improved in the last few years...so where's the evidence for his overall offensive package really boosting teams to the level we see with the offensive GOATs I listed? What year would that be for you?

re: Peak seasons and pace adjustment. 2008 is Kobe's best season to me:

RS: 27.4 pts 5.2 ast +3.6% TS
PS: 28.4 pts 5.3 ast +4.9% TS relative to opp average

I went with 2010 because I thought his PS looked better (it was better IMO after the knee drain). I don't think I have the full careers for Hakeem and Duncan done out. (Vinsanity, I calculate them based on team pace estimate.)

[FJS]

Vote Duncan

nominate Charles Barkley

[Die93]

Successfully defending your championship is very important, it validates the one before and proves it wasnt a fluke IMO. All the greats except for Bird,Duncan, andWilt have sucessfully defneded their Crown.

You're right, Pau Gasol is one of them.

gasol is a sidekick im talking about LEADING a team.

[therealbig3]

When does voting end? Because this is a very close vote. I just counted the Hakeem and Duncan votes and I have it:

Duncan-14 (Dr Mufasa, penbeast0, Jay From LA, LikeABosh, ThaRegul8r, mysticbb, Bucksfans1and2, Baller 24, cpower, Laimbeer, RoyceDa59, drza, Fencer reregistered, FJS)

Hakeem-12 (ElGee, Snakebites, fatal9, Vinsanity420, Doctor MJ, ronnymac2, Sedale Threatt, pancakes3, TMACFORMVP, shawngoat23, DavidStern, Gongxi)

[dan_atko97]

Vote: Duncan
Nominate: Barkley

[penbeast0]

Dan_atko97, I told you in the last thread. If you want to commit to the project, send a PM asking to be added. Otherwise your vote doesn't count. And, if you are just going to post bare votes without forwarding the discussion, you are much less likely to be approved.

[penbeast0]

Here is how I have the vote. Please correct me if I am wrong . . . again . . . .

VOTE
Duncan 13 (Dr Mufasa, penbeast0, Jay from LA, ThaRegul8r, ElGee, mysticbb, Bucksfans1and2, cpower, Laimbeer, RoyceDa59, drza, Fencer Reregistered, FJS)
Hakeem 7 (fatal9, Vinsanity420, Doctor MJ, ronnymac2, Sedale Threatt, pancakes3, Gongxi)
Kobe 2 (An Unbiased Fan, JordansBulls) -- SD Chargers, I didn't see your vote

NOMINATE
Mikan 6 (Dr Mufasa, penbeast0, An Unbaised Fan, JordansBulls, Laimbeer, Fencer Reregistered)
Pettit 1 (Jay From LA)
Barkley 8 (ElGee, fatal9, Vinsanity420, Bucksfans1and2, cpower. Ronnymac2, pancakes3, FJS)
Dirk 5 (mysticbb, Doctor MJ, RoyceDa59. Sedale Threall, drza)
DRob 1 (Gongxi)

[ElGee]

Here is how I have the vote. Please correct me if I am wrong . . . again . . . .

VOTE
Duncan 13 (Dr Mufasa, penbeast0, Jay from LA, ThaRegul8r, ElGee, mysticbb, Bucksfans1and2, cpower, Laimbeer, RoyceDa59, drza, Fencer Reregistered, FJS)
Hakeem 7 (fatal9, Vinsanity420, Doctor MJ, ronnymac2, Sedale Threatt, pancakes3, Gongxi)
Kobe 2 (An Unbiased Fan, JordansBulls) -- SD Chargers, I didn't see your vote

NOMINATE
Mikan 6 (Dr Mufasa, penbeast0, An Unbaised Fan, JordansBulls, Laimbeer, Fencer Reregistered)
Pettit 1 (Jay From LA)
Barkley 8 (ElGee, fatal9, Vinsanity420, Bucksfans1and2, cpower. Ronnymac2, pancakes3, FJS)
Dirk 5 (mysticbb, Doctor MJ, RoyceDa59. Sedale Threall, drza)
DRob 1 (Gongxi)

I didn't vote for Duncan. And this doesn't lineup with realbig3's count at all...?

[lorak]

penbeast,

Hakeem got more votes (12, so it was very close), but overall it is as you wrote - Duncan won (13) and Barkley (10) is the new player added.

BTW
Voters! please don't edit your posts when you change mid, but add new post. It would make counting a lot easier

[therealbig3]

Here is how I have the vote. Please correct me if I am wrong . . . again . . . .

VOTE
Duncan 13 (Dr Mufasa, penbeast0, Jay from LA, ThaRegul8r, ElGee, mysticbb, Bucksfans1and2, cpower, Laimbeer, RoyceDa59, drza, Fencer Reregistered, FJS)
Hakeem 7 (fatal9, Vinsanity420, Doctor MJ, ronnymac2, Sedale Threatt, pancakes3, Gongxi)
Kobe 2 (An Unbiased Fan, JordansBulls) -- SD Chargers, I didn't see your vote

NOMINATE
Mikan 6 (Dr Mufasa, penbeast0, An Unbaised Fan, JordansBulls, Laimbeer, Fencer Reregistered)
Pettit 1 (Jay From LA)
Barkley 8 (ElGee, fatal9, Vinsanity420, Bucksfans1and2, cpower. Ronnymac2, pancakes3, FJS)
Dirk 5 (mysticbb, Doctor MJ, RoyceDa59. Sedale Threall, drza)
DRob 1 (Gongxi)

I don't know for sure if everyone that I counted is actually allowed to vote, but yeah, ElGee voted for Hakeem, not Duncan, and you missed LikeABosh and Baller24 for Duncan.

Then you have Snakebites, TMACFORMVP, DavidStern, and shawngoat23 for Hakeem also. Maybe certain people voted after a certain time limit, but if not, I'm pretty sure that the count was 14-12 Duncan over Hakeem...I went back and counted again quite a few times.

Either way though, that's a still win for Duncan I guess.

[LarsV8]

Any list that has Duncan over Hakeem is a joke. Duncan isnt better at anything than Hakeem.

[SDChargers#1]

Here is how I have the vote. Please correct me if I am wrong . . . again . . . .

VOTE
Duncan 13 (Dr Mufasa, penbeast0, Jay from LA, ThaRegul8r, ElGee, mysticbb, Bucksfans1and2, cpower, Laimbeer, RoyceDa59, drza, Fencer Reregistered, FJS)
Hakeem 7 (fatal9, Vinsanity420, Doctor MJ, ronnymac2, Sedale Threatt, pancakes3, Gongxi)
Kobe 2 (An Unbiased Fan, JordansBulls) -- SD Chargers, I didn't see your vote

NOMINATE
Mikan 6 (Dr Mufasa, penbeast0, An Unbaised Fan, JordansBulls, Laimbeer, Fencer Reregistered)
Pettit 1 (Jay From LA)
Barkley 8 (ElGee, fatal9, Vinsanity420, Bucksfans1and2, cpower. Ronnymac2, pancakes3, FJS)
Dirk 5 (mysticbb, Doctor MJ, RoyceDa59. Sedale Threall, drza)
DRob 1 (Gongxi)

My vote was at the beginning of page 7 at the bottom of my first post. It wouldn't make any difference my vote for Kobe wasn't going to change anything, and Barkley (my nominee) got nominated.