RealGM Top 100 List #20

[colts18]

Career numbers for Drexler, Pierce, and a mystery wing who played around the same amount of games as Pierce and Drexler:
Drexler: 20-6-6, .547 TS%, 21.1 PER
Pierce: 22-6-4, .567 TS%, 20.7 PER
Player C: 22-5-4, .537 TS%, 20.7 PER

Playoffs:
Drexler: 20-7-6, .532 TS%, 19.5 PER
Pierce: 21-7-4, .559 TS%, 18.7 PER
Player C: 23-6-5, .514 TS%, 19.5 PER

Through Age 30 which encompasses almost all of their primes:
Pierce: 23-6-4, .560 TS%, 21.4 PER
Drexler: 21-6-6, .548 TS%, 21.5 PER
Player C: 24-5-4, .535 TS%, 22.0 PER

Playoffs Thru age 30:
Pierce: 23-7-5, .556 TS%, 20.1 PER
Drexler: 22-7-7, .527 TS%, 20.0 PER
Player C: 26-7-5, .516 TS%, 21.4 PER

Looking at the numbers, all 3 guys are pretty close.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I don't have a problem with someone saying they are in the same tier, but to me Frazier is the clear choice between the two.

Frazier scored more, and more efficiently, rebounded better, was a drastically better defender, and played in an offense that really didn't let you rack up big assists yet developed a reputation as a top tier playmaker (not that that last gives him an edge over Isiah).

Frazier has better All-NBA accolades than Isiah, and this is despite the fact that after the RPOY I'm firmly on the side that says that contemporaries underrated Frazier due to overrating Reed.

I don't get this. Frazier was a PG, and I thought it has been said multiple times now by people, that PG defense isn't rather important. Conversely, a PG's duty is to lead a great offense, is it not? because if so, Walt did the opposite.

So how is Walt a clear choice when his teams weren't good offensively, and were successful instead due to defense(which is supposed to be impacted very little by PGs). Also, Walt's AST% is drastically lower than any other elite PG, or even elite facilitator. SGs like MJ & Kobe who played in the least-assist friendly offense, still racked up higher AST% than Frazier.

Also, you bring up All-NBA selections, but on the flip side Isiah has more MVP shares.

[Dr Positivity]

I personally think Dave Cowens should go above these players getting votes: Drexler, Pierce, Kidd, Payton, Stockton

Cowens has

- An MVP in a pretty tough year (beating Kareem, Tiny in his 34/11 season, and Wilt). Unlike Unseld, he followed up his win with impressive 4th, 2nd and 3rd place finishes - he constantly finished ahead of guys like Barry and Frazier, both voted in
- 2x best player on a title team + a 68-14 title worthy team submarined by Havlicek dislocating his shoulder
- Plays the most important position
- Is the Gimili to prime Bill Walton's Aragorn as an elite defender and rebounder, high post shooter and passer and screen setter, outlet passer, and monster energy and intangibles from the back end guy

I don't see a ton of justification for Frazier getting nominated in the early 20s and Cowens being on pace for mid 30s. Both guys had impact higher than their numbers on two title teams and Cowens at the time was considered more of the superstar of his team. Now that may have been wrong and due to skin color, but at the very least it shouldn't be massive edge Frazier, it seems like pretty close to a tie to me

[Dr Positivity]

Career numbers for Drexler, Pierce, and a mystery wing who played around the same amount of games as Pierce and Drexler:
Drexler: 20-6-6, .547 TS%, 21.1 PER
Pierce: 22-6-4, .567 TS%, 20.7 PER
Player C: 22-5-4, .537 TS%, 20.7 PER

Playoffs:
Drexler: 20-7-6, .532 TS%, 19.5 PER
Pierce: 21-7-4, .559 TS%, 18.7 PER
Player C: 23-6-5, .514 TS%, 19.5 PER

Through Age 30 which encompasses almost all of their primes:
Pierce: 23-6-4, .560 TS%, 21.4 PER
Drexler: 21-6-6, .548 TS%, 21.5 PER
Player C: 24-5-4, .535 TS%, 22.0 PER

Playoffs Thru age 30:
Pierce: 23-7-5, .556 TS%, 20.1 PER
Drexler: 22-7-7, .527 TS%, 20.0 PER
Player C: 26-7-5, .516 TS%, 21.4 PER

Looking at the numbers, all 3 guys are pretty close.

I guess I'm not the most objective party here, but there's no way I'm voting for Vince anywhere below like, 80. He's a loser and there are plenty of less statistically viable players I'd rather have on my team over him and Tmac

[An Unbiased Fan]

Enough
Looking at ortg relatively to league average he lead four of top 20 offenses of all time (since 1974)
number 3rd, 7th, 12th and 18th.

Not when the teams were Pippen centric. It's fairly clear that MJ, not Pippen was the driving force for those offense.

1993 - 112.9 ORtg (#2) with MJ
1994 - 106.1 ORtg (#14) no MJ
1995 - 109.5 ORtg (#10) only 17 g with MJ
1996 - 115.2 ORtg (#1) with MJ
^
So Chicago's offense was SIGNIFICANTLY worse without MJ, and it's fairly clear that he was the one respnsible for those ORtgs, not Pippen.

Not really. And we could easily check that, because Pippen missed many games in 1998. He improved Bulls offense by 7.4 that year.
Also keep in mind that until Pippen became a starter in '90 season Bulls with Jordan had year after year offense barely above average.

Except, Pippen didn't become the Bull's facilitator until 91' when Phil's Tri was installed. Before that, MJ was running the offense. MJ's AST% was 28.6%, and Pippen's was only 19.8%.

It's fairly clear that the Tri had more to do with the jump, because once MJ left in 94', the offense dipped by +6 rating points.

BTW, do you know which Rockets team during Hakeem's prime had the best offense? That one with Pippen in 1999...
When he joined Blazers he also improved their offense.

The 97' team was #7, and the 98' team was #8. Jumping to #5 is hardly impressive. Pippen was a positive force on offense, but he didn't have PG impact.

None.
However 2000 Blazers were very good on defense.

Which begs the question, where is the proof that Pippen had defensive anchor ability. i just find it hard to accept him as this massive defensive force, when it has been said many times in this project that perimeter D isn't that impactful.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't get this. Frazier was a PG, and I thought it has been said multiple times now by people, that PG defense isn't rather important. Conversely, a PG's duty is to lead a great offense, is it not? because if so, Walt did the opposite.

So how is Walt a clear choice when his teams weren't good offensively, and were successful instead due to defense(which is supposed to be impacted very little by PGs). Also, Walt's AST% is drastically lower than any other elite PG, or even elite facilitator. SGs like MJ & Kobe who played in the least-assist friendly offense, still racked up higher AST% than Frazier.

Also, you bring up All-NBA selections, but on the flip side Isiah has more MVP shares.

Point guard defense isn't as important as other position's defense, but that doesn't make it irrelevant.

I think you're confused about the Knicks being bad on offense. In '70, according to ElGee they were 4th in the league in ORtg. He didn't give a complete ranking for '73, but in both years the Knicks eFG% was well above average - that's more than the Pistons can say on their title runs.

Re: AST%. Let me be explicit: The Knicks played an offense somewhat like the current Triangle. Point guards don't rack up huge assists when you play that way. If you want to give Isiah a playmaking nod, that's fine by me, but it's wrong to talk about Frazier as if his assists were damning given his situation and how much praise people have for his playmaking.

Re: MVP shares. Both players MVP shares are negligible. Frazier though missed out because people wrongly gave votes to teammate Reed. Isiah missed out for really no reason other than people simply didn't see him as leading his team in the same primacy that the Magics & Jordans were doing.

[penbeast0]

Hard to understand the claim Frazier is a serious contender, but Isiah isn't. Consensus all-time list ranks Isiah higher.

The claim the Pistons were stacked is dubious. Dumars, Laimbeer, and baby Rodman don't compare to Frazier's teammates, who included four HOFers IIRC. I also opened up the question of Isiah's support versus Bird, Magic, and Jordan, and the consensus seemed to be he had the least support.

Competition, Isiah encountered and had a winning playoff record against Bird's Celtics, Jordan's Bulls, and Showtime. Frazier faced a stacked Laker's team, but we all know any series involving Wilt was pretty much an exercise of waiting for his ultimate failure. The guy found a way to lose.

The Billups comparison is unfair to either player, they're both markedly superior. But Frazier's style of play - big defensive point that makes entry and hockey type passes - is more similar. Isiah was GOAT or near GOAT at getting to the hole. The Piston offensive talent was pretty average offensively without him. He was more of a true point offensively. And contrary to popular belief, very good defensively.

Other than the fact Frazier was a better shooter, scorer and defender and was at least Isiah's equal at big stage impact . . . Isiah was better at . . . mmm . . . assists?

Now to the big one . . . you are seriously saying the Knicks are more stacked than the Pistons because Bill Bradley is in the HOF? Reed v. Laimbeer -- Similar players, Reed was the better scorer. DeBusschere v. Rodman -- Have to go with the worm's impact here in Detroit. Bradley v. Tripuka/Dantey/Aguirre -- despite the fact that Bradley is in the HOF (and is the most overrated player in NBA history -- as someone said, he's a poor man's Shane Batter, without the defense) easily any of the Piston's SFs. Dumars v. Monroe -- Monroe did a great job fitting into the Knicks system but still, Dumars's defensive edge is clear. Bench -- Detroit is deeper.

The ONLY advantage the Knicks have over the Pistons is at center and remember that Frazier took the Knicks to one of those championships with Reed as a part time player (regular season and playoffs). Reed is the better individual player and took a lesser team just as far. Isiah isn't that close.

[colts18]

Not when the teams were Pippen centric. It's fairly clear that MJ, not Pippen was the driving force for those offense.

1993 - 112.9 ORtg (#2) with MJ
1994 - 106.1 ORtg (#14) no MJ
1995 - 109.5 ORtg (#10) only 17 g with MJ
1996 - 115.2 ORtg (#1) with MJ
^
So Chicago's offense was SIGNIFICANTLY worse without MJ, and it's fairly clear that he was the one respnsible for those ORtgs, not Pippen.

93: 7th 106.2 D Rating
94: 6th 102.7 D rating
95: 2nd 104.3 D Rating


Pippen was a bigger part of the Bulls defense. In 94, they allowed 96.6 PPG when Pippen was out and 94.7 PPG when he played. Plus they allowed 90.8 PPG in the playoffs with Pippen.

The 95 Bulls allowed 96.55 PPG before MJ came back and 97.23 PPG when MJ came back plus 97.4 PPG in the postseason.

[Dr Positivity]

I also think Gervin should get some consideration soon. I know we don't like one dimensional players, but Dirk just taught us that being more off the ball than the ordinary volume guy can mean as much as an on ball star who racks up the apg. The Spurs with Gervin got as close as the Suns with Nash with some brutally close losses (blowing 3-1 lead in the 79 WCF with 2 pt loss and 4th quarter collapse in G7. In 81 losing by 5 pts in G7 of the 2nd rd which was a Suns-Spurs 07 virtual WCF as the Rockets went on to win in 5 in the real WCF against Kansas City) he has 5 1st team All-NBA, 3x top 3 in MVP finishes - was pretty much a superstar. Not a perfect player but at this point everyone is starting to get more warts

[Doctor MJ]

I also think Gervin should get some consideration soon.

Agreed. I always think that Gervin doesn't get enough respect. Crazy enough when Drexler starts getting into conversations while Gervin isn't, but now Pierce too?

[An Unbiased Fan]

I don't get this. Frazier was a PG, and I thought it has been said multiple times now by people, that PG defense isn't rather important. Conversely, a PG's duty is to lead a great offense, is it not? because if so, Walt did the opposite.

So how is Walt a clear choice when his teams weren't good offensively, and were successful instead due to defense(which is supposed to be impacted very little by PGs). Also, Walt's AST% is drastically lower than any other elite PG, or even elite facilitator. SGs like MJ & Kobe who played in the least-assist friendly offense, still racked up higher AST% than Frazier.

Also, you bring up All-NBA selections, but on the flip side Isiah has more MVP shares.

Point guard defense isn't as important as other position's defense, but that doesn't make it irrelevant.

I think you're confused about the Knicks being bad on offense. In '70, according to ElGee they were 4th in the league in ORtg. He didn't give a complete ranking for '73, but in both years the Knicks eFG% was well above average - that's more than the Pistons can say on their title runs.

Re: AST%. Let me be explicit: The Knicks played an offense somewhat like the current Triangle. Point guards don't rack up huge assists when you play that way. If you want to give Isiah a playmaking nod, that's fine by me, but it's wrong to talk about Frazier as if his assists were damning given his situation and how much praise people have for his playmaking.

Re: MVP shares. Both players MVP shares are negligible. Frazier though missed out because people wrongly gave votes to teammate Reed. Isiah missed out for really no reason other than people simply didn't see him as leading his team in the same primacy that the Magics & Jordans were doing.

Perhaps I should have said those NY teams weren't great instead of good. #4 out of 14 teams isn't overly impressive, and the equivalent of around #8-10 in today's NBA. I don't see any indicators that he was an elite playmaker on both an individual or team level. Certainly not in comparison to guys like Kidd, Stock, or Nash.

Defensively, Dave DeBusschere was the driving force, not Walt. His 1969 arrival in NY, and 6 year span there were the years that they were great defensively. In 1974, NY was still a good defensive team at #5 in the NBA. In 1975 Dave retired, and NY dropped to #11, despite Walt being in his prime. in fact, NY became a below league average team after 1975.

Walt seems to be getting by on reputation rather than results.

[Dr Positivity]

Walt is one of those guys that got talked about as underrated for so long that he's now become overrated. Great player but I have him in the peloton with Nash, Isiah, Payton, Kidd, Stockton. Also, I think Stockton got talked about as overrated for so long that he's now become underrated

[lorak]

It's fairly clear that the Tri had more to do with the jump, because once MJ left in 94', the offense dipped by +6 rating points.

Good point, but that makes very difficult to evaluate Pippen's value. Different data says different story on both - his impact on D and O.

[therealbig3]

I still think Pippen's total offense is getting overrated.

Drexler was not a rich man's Worthy. Clyde was the best player on very good teams and created far more opportunities for the offense than Worthy ever did. Their style of play isn't even similar except for being freak athletes.

There have been some excellent posts on Paul Pierce. If Pierce is a viable candidate, what about T-Mac (just for an in-era comparison)?

My thoughts on T-Mac are that he was basically an inefficient Drexler, who scored on greater volume. A low efficiency, high volume scorer is pretty undesirable, but he was always a great rebounder and playmaker. His defense was underrated.

I think the superior durability, superior longevity, and superior scoring efficiency of Pierce gives him the nod.

But T-Mac peaked ridiculously high, and he has a few years that may not look that impressive in terms of TS% (01, 02, 04, and 05), but if you keep in mind that they were still higher, or in the case of 05, around the league average, and he provided great rebounding and playmaking, you've got a pretty great 5-year run there. But his efficiency does suffer after that, while the injuries start piling up.

[Doctor MJ]

Perhaps I should have said those NY teams weren't great instead of good. #4 out of 14 teams isn't overly impressive, and the equivalent of around #8-10 in today's NBA. I don't see any indicators that he was an elite playmaker on both an individual or team level. Certainly not in comparison to guys like Kidd, Stock, or Nash.

Defensively, Dave DeBusschere was the driving force, not Walt. His 1969 arrival in NY, and 6 year span there were the years that they were great defensively. In 1974, NY was still a good defensive team at #5 in the NBA. In 1975 Dave retired, and NY dropped to #11, despite Walt being in his prime. in fact, NY became a below league average team after 1975.

Walt seems to be getting by on reputation rather than results.

We're talking about Frazier vs Isiah right? Being 4 out of 14 is completely fine by Isiah standards, so what's your point?

Re: Kidd, Stock, Nash. Were I just going with playmaking, I'd rank them ahead of Frazier too. What I'm saying though is that the APG here is very misleading.

I think it's more helpful to think of him in comparison to someone like Payton. Payton was a 9 APG guy who looked utterly lost in the triangle. With Frazier you've got a guy who thrived in a triangle-like setting with superior scoring, rebounding, and comparable defense while being a solid team guy instead of a dumbass.

Re: defensive driving force DeBuss. How I would put it is that Frazier had a sterling reputation on defense, and from what I've seen of him, this doesn't seem crazy at all. Whether that made him more valuable defensively than DeBuss is debatable, but in comparisons with other point guards, it seems pretty clear that you need to consider him up there with the best.

[therealbig3]

I still think that when Drexler and the 2nd tier PGs become serious nominees, that Pierce should absolutely be included in that discussion, and he might have the best case out of all of them.

Not quite sure who you mean by 2nd tier PG exactly, but regarding Drexler I agree. Both have rather similar numbers and both drop rather the same in the playoffs. For me it would be a wash with the tendency to pick Paul Pierce here, the more efficient scoring and the better defense would be my tie-breaker.

By 2nd tier PGs, I mean Kidd, Stockton, Isiah, and Payton, guys who I don't think are on the level of guys like Magic, Oscar, Nash, and Frazier. Kidd, Stockton, Payton, Isiah, and Drexler were all getting a lot of mention recently, while I don't think Pierce ever crossed anyone's mind. I'd take Pierce over all of those guys.

[Fencer reregistered]

I'm in on top 50 for Pierce, he had very underrated statistical run (4 and a half 25ppg+ with rebounds and assists seasons, 8 10 WS+ years and is top 40 overall in WS) and has been marvellous post KG. I think his lack of MVP and All-NBA love comes down to the SG boom in his generation. If Pierce was drafted in 2007 and had to compete with Ellis and Gordon for the best young SG in the league, he'd likely have more hype than he did sitting behind Kobe, Iverson, Vince, Tmac, etc. I think part of the value of a project like this is to notice what the people on the last page just did, that it looks like Drexler and Pierce should be grouped together. I'm not voting for Drexler yet either, though

And in retrospect Pierce has surpassed most of those guys he was "behind" -- I'd give him a longevity edge over Carter and Tmac, based on quality, even though it's not yet known which will wind up having played the most years total. I'd rank Pierce over Iverson, as well, despite Iverson's flash and his Finals run as The Undisputed Man.

I'm comfortable putting Pippen and Hondo over Pierce, because they really brought it at both ends of the floor, to a level that helped win a whole lot of rings. Baylor and Barry too; they were unquestioned as being elite players in the league (not just elite wing players) for longer than Pierce was. Ditto Wade, if I can be talked past the briefness of his resume. But after that, I'm running out of wing players to put ahead of Pierce.

[Fencer reregistered]

Career numbers for Drexler, Pierce, and a mystery wing who played around the same amount of games as Pierce and Drexler:
Drexler: 20-6-6, .547 TS%, 21.1 PER
Pierce: 22-6-4, .567 TS%, 20.7 PER
Player C: 22-5-4, .537 TS%, 20.7 PER

Playoffs:
Drexler: 20-7-6, .532 TS%, 19.5 PER
Pierce: 21-7-4, .559 TS%, 18.7 PER
Player C: 23-6-5, .514 TS%, 19.5 PER

Through Age 30 which encompasses almost all of their primes:
Pierce: 23-6-4, .560 TS%, 21.4 PER
Drexler: 21-6-6, .548 TS%, 21.5 PER
Player C: 24-5-4, .535 TS%, 22.0 PER

Playoffs Thru age 30:
Pierce: 23-7-5, .556 TS%, 20.1 PER
Drexler: 22-7-7, .527 TS%, 20.0 PER
Player C: 26-7-5, .516 TS%, 21.4 PER

Looking at the numbers, all 3 guys are pretty close.

LOL at the age 30 focus and the neglect of defense in the discussion ...

[An Unbiased Fan]

Perhaps I should have said those NY teams weren't great instead of good. #4 out of 14 teams isn't overly impressive, and the equivalent of around #8-10 in today's NBA. I don't see any indicators that he was an elite playmaker on both an individual or team level. Certainly not in comparison to guys like Kidd, Stock, or Nash.

Defensively, Dave DeBusschere was the driving force, not Walt. His 1969 arrival in NY, and 6 year span there were the years that they were great defensively. In 1974, NY was still a good defensive team at #5 in the NBA. In 1975 Dave retired, and NY dropped to #11, despite Walt being in his prime. in fact, NY became a below league average team after 1975.

Walt seems to be getting by on reputation rather than results.

We're talking about Frazier vs Isiah right? Being 4 out of 14 is completely fine by Isiah standards, so what's your point?

Re: Kidd, Stock, Nash. Were I just going with playmaking, I'd rank them ahead of Frazier too. What I'm saying though is that the APG here is very misleading.

I think it's more helpful to think of him in comparison to someone like Payton. Payton was a 9 APG guy who looked utterly lost in the triangle. With Frazier you've got a guy who thrived in a triangle-like setting with superior scoring, rebounding, and comparable defense while being a solid team guy instead of a dumbass.

I question Walt's impact. Isiah was the true leader and best player in those Piston teams. Walt wasn't. He was more efficient than Isiah as a scorer, but Isiah was a legit 20/10 guy in his prime. Even in a Tri type system, Walt should have had better assist production. Even when he went to Cleveland, his assist numbers were weak for a PG.

Walt was a great defender, but again, I question how much impact his defense had versus Isiah's. Why did the bottom fall out of NY's defense once Debusschere left? I think the mention of GP is the right one, because I'm not really sure how Walt is ahead of Payton.

[An Unbiased Fan]

By 2nd tier PGs, I mean Kidd, Stockton, Isiah, and Payton, guys who I don't think are on the level of guys like Magic, Oscar, Nash, and Frazier.

Magic & Oscar I get, but why are Nash & Frazier on the 1st tier, above Kidd, Stockton, Isiah, and Payton?