Is Kevin Garnett a defensive anchor?

[G35]

2011- Anderson, Bass, Nelson were somewhat solid
2010- Gortat, Rashard(Solid), Anderson(Solid), Barnes(Solid), Vince(Solid)
2009- Gortat, Rashard(Solid), Hedo(Solid that year)
2008- nobody

Anderson is a solid defensive player? Are we going by stats (which by the way is why everyone is saying KG is a defensive anchor but it's only certain stats that count. Don't go by anything he did in Minnesota that doesn't count because of crap teammates. Boston counts but KG did all the heavy lifting even though Thibedeau is a mastermind at defense and the Celtics entire philosophy is based around team defense.)

Anderson 3 years exp: 4.5 reb's/.4 blks/ .5 stls plays 19 mins a game Def rating 105
nice role player but is right along there with Brian Cardinal. Hard to believe you put him as a solid defensive player. Best asset is he hustles.

Bass 6 years exp: 8.0 reb's/ 1.1 blks/ .5 stls plays 19 mins a game Def rating 105
another nice role player, also hustles can provide some weak side rim protection. But isn't going to make much of a difference. Notice though that his defensive ratings improved when he went to Orlando from Dallas

Rashard Lewis 12 years exp: 5.6 reb's .6 blks/ 1.1 stls 34 mins a game Def rating 107
Lewis was on Andrea Bargnani's wall as a kid. How can a PF play 30+ mins and can't get 6 reb's. Never avg'd a block a game. This is a guy that never cared about defense. But also notice that his defensive rating improved once he came to Orlando. Hard to believe you think Rashard is a solid defender when that has been one of his biggest criticism's throughout his career.

Hedo 10 years exp: 4.1 reb's/ .3 blks/ .8 stls 29 mins a game def rating 105
Hedo has the ability to be a good defender but never was. And notice once he was traded to Toronto/Phoenix his D-rating spiked and then dropped back down once he came back to Orlando.

Is it a coincidence that all the players leaving Orlando have seen an increase in their Defensive ratings? Look at Jason Richardson who has never been seen as a solid defender and he got his career best with Orlando last year.

I am not acting like 3 points is nothing. I am responding to claims that Howard is a historically great anchor who drags scrubs to very good Drtgs. So in that sense, 3 points is nice but nothing special. KG throughout his career has posted better numbers in that category.

I have no idea why you posted blocks steals and rebounds. What are you trying to show? Howard is their best defender, by far. Everybody knows that.

This.

3 points is good, I'll even go so far to say I think Howard does a bit more than this. Obviously though, when the difference between the best and worst defenses is more than a 10 point difference, a 3-ish point impact player won't make scrubs elite.

Ummmm someone explain to me what the STANDARD is for an elite defensive rating? Dr. MJ was right in that THERE ISN'T a large between the best teams and the worst teams. This isn't college where Duke gets to play Western Michigan. Three points is the difference between being rated 4th defensively and being rated 11th. That's the small window you are working with in the NBA. People don't realize every point is huge in a basketball game. Where do you think the idea of "You only have to watch the last two minutes of a game." came from?

The difference between the 1st and 2nd rated defenses was .2 points. The difference between the Bulls #1 rated defense and the Magic was less than 3 points. So exactly what more will it take to make the Magic elite.....

[Geaux_Hawks]

if you look at Dwight's team dRtg(The actual stat), all of those years look good in the rankings, but the stat is actually no better than most of KG's Minnesota teams.

Era differences

Wasn't the era KG played in more tougher, had more post presences on offense, and allowed hand checking?!

[colts18]

if you look at Dwight's team dRtg(The actual stat), all of those years look good in the rankings, but the stat is actually no better than most of KG's Minnesota teams.

Era differences

Wasn't the era KG played in more tougher, had more post presences on offense, and allowed hand checking?!

Exactly you are making my point which is looking at raw Drtg is wrong. In 1962, The Celtics scored around 120 PPG. Do you think they are better than the current Suns who average around 110 PPG?

[Geaux_Hawks]

G35, I was saying they were solid for that season. Not for their careers. They had at least a 3 W/S in those seasons except Anderson, but he was still solid. Besides that, Hedo was a better defender in Sacto than Orlando. Lewis is a better team defender than most think and while he was in Seattle, they never played defense as a team. I'm not arguing that Howard didn't make them better defensively, but at the same time, they weren't playing matador D either.

[Geaux_Hawks]

Wasn't the era KG played in more tougher, had more post presences on offense, and allowed hand checking?!

Exactly you are making my point which is looking at raw Drtg is wrong. In 1962, The Celtics scored around 120 PPG. Do you think they are better than the current Suns who average around 110 PPG?

How?! The way i see it, if you drop Dwight in that era where Shaq was in his prime, healthy Yao dominated a young Dwight, Ewing was still somewhat a factor, Malone was still putting up 20+ PPG, Webber & Divac maned Sacto's FC, while Duncan & D Rob maned SA's, and many other guys; then Dwight is no where near the factor is in today's game.

[G35]

Dwight is not the top of the line defensive anchor but he is the best we got in todays game.

Mutumbo
DRob
Hakeem
Ewing
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Mourning
Eaton

Would all be ahead of Dwight imo. You put any of those guys on the Wolves in place of KG and I see the Wolves improving significantly.....

[AQuintus]

Exactly you are making my point which is looking at raw Drtg is wrong. In 1962, The Celtics scored around 120 PPG. Do you think they are better than the current Suns who average around 110 PPG?

The Celtics in 1962 scored so much because the pace was significantly higher back then. DRtg is adjusted for pace (it's per 100 possessions) which means that it applies across eras.

Edit:

Unfortunately, Basketball-Reference doesn't have the O and D Ratings going back that far, but their earliest ratings for Boston in 73-74 show my point.

73-74 Celtics: PPG - 109, OPPG - 105.1, ORtg - 98.6, DRtg - 95.1
10-11 Suns: PPP - 105, OPPG - 105.9, ORtg - 109.5, DRtg - 110.4

So, basically, even though the Celtics had more raw PPG and about equal raw OPPG, their defense was actually significantly better and their O was significantly worse when adjusted for pace (which is what O and D Rtgs do).

[Geaux_Hawks]

Dwight is not the top of the line defensive anchor but he is the best we got in todays game.

Mutumbo
DRob
Hakeem
Ewing
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Mourning
Eaton

Would all be ahead of Dwight imo. You put any of those guys on the Wolves in place of KG and I see the Wolves improving significantly.....

D Rob, Hakeem, Ewing, Kareem, Zo, & Shaq are about the only ones who would have made the T Wolves significantly better. Duncan would have done just as much as KG. Not saying it as if Duncan is overrated or not good, but Duncan has always had the luxury of playing around good players.

[G35]

Dwight is not the top of the line defensive anchor but he is the best we got in todays game.

Mutumbo
DRob
Hakeem
Ewing
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Mourning
Eaton

Would all be ahead of Dwight imo. You put any of those guys on the Wolves in place of KG and I see the Wolves improving significantly.....

D Rob, Hakeem, Ewing, Kareem, Zo, & Shaq are about the only ones who would have made the T Wolves significantly better. Duncan would have done just as much as KG. Not saying it as if Duncan is overrated or not good, but Duncan has always had the luxury of playing around good players.

I can give you Duncan in that he is the weakest of these as anchors but I think he's stronger than KG. But if you don't think Mark Eaton or Mutumbo wouldn't have been better anchors than KG then we just disagree. I still put KG behind all those as making a singular impact on a defense.....

[drza]

@rapcity - the bench minute argument is weak because when Dwight sits, the opposing starters sit too.

@whateverbro - so he's only an anchor with the Celtics?

@drza - how do you know what part of the APM comes from defense and what comes from offense?

RE: @drza...If you go to the 82games.com 5-man units, you'll see that they post both the offensive and defensive ratings for each 5-man unit. The numbers that I focused on in my post earlier in the thread were purely the defensive numbers from those 5-man units.

RE: @whateverbro...no, KG was an anchor in Minnesota too. The issue is, that to build a strong defense, the other 4 starters have to have at least some type of defensive characteristic that can be used (and it helps if the defensive system also makes logical use of that talent). The Wolves, especially of the middle part of the decade, tended to lack that. This is a post where I went into detail describing the personnel and contributions to the defense of the Wolves from 2004 - 2007 ( viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1113634&start=150 , 7th post down on the page). For those that don't want to go through it in depth, here was the summary quote:

"Let's distance this from names, and instead look at the on-court realities. For the '04 - '07 Wolves, the majority of the non-Garnett minutes went to players that weren't just poor defenders...they were defenders that were unable to contribute in any area of defense. They lacked the physical ability (combo of strength, speed and/or height) and/or aptitude to stay in front of their man (often without picks), to make reasonable rotations, or to rebound their positions."

Now, let's move to Dwight Howard. I've repeatedly seen Howard used as an example of building a strong defense with "no good defenders", but really people aren't looking close enough. Lets look at the 2009 Magic as an example.

Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu aren't known as strong defenders, and for good reason. But if you get out of "good" and "bad" and look at what they bring to the table, both are mobile 6-10 players with good length and quickness. Both are "poor" defenders for a PF because they aren't physical enough to push big players off the block, nor are they good rebounders for their size. But they are very good at staying in front of any 4 that faces up and they can do that out to the 3-point line with no issue. Similarly, neither have the footspeed to purely stop a fast 3 from driving to the rim...but both have the length and adequate speed to funnel those players to help.

So, Dwight is an excellent rebounder and paint influence, which covers Shard and Hedo's defensive weaknesses. That part, we all would agree on, and Howard's supporters would say that this is what makes him an anchor. But they don't really look at the flip side...that Hedo's and Shard's strengths make them ideal for a) defending stretch 4s, b) bothering perimeter shooters, and c) helping and switching all over the floor. And when you add to it that Stan Van Gundy is one of the better defensive minds in the game, and that he built a system that maximizes those strengths and hides the weaknesses, you are still able to build a strong defense with those players as key pieces. Yes, it relies upon a good defensive big man to anchor it...nobody is claiming that Howard isn't that. BUT, and this is key, it ALSO relies upon the talents of the other defenders. It's not Howard and 4 bums (like KG often had in Minnesota), it's Howard and a bunch of lesser defenders that are still effective at playing certain defensive roles.

Which is EXACTLY what KG has in Boston. The difference is, for some reason, when Garnett is the person under discussion many people can ONLY see the strengths in his defensive teammates and not their weaknesses. People see that Rondo is excellent at being a disruptor/playing the passing lanes, but don't note that he isn't that good at staying in front of his man. People note that Perkins is good at establishing and holding post defensive position, but not that he isn't mobile enough to provide the help defense that a real anchor provides. People note that Pierce can stay in front of Kobe and maybe block his fade-away, but not that he wasn't really able to do that over the course of his career UNTIL he had Garnett at his back to dissuade the Kobe's of the world from driving. People note that Thibs' defensive schemes are sick (and they are), but they DON'T note that these same Celtics supporting cast in a Thibs system suddenly play poor defense if you replace Garnett with anyone else.

In short, with Dwight's Orlando cast people tend to see all the weaknesses and not the strengths. With KG's Boston cast people tend to see all the strengths and not the weaknesses. But see, here is where the numbers aren't impressed by reputation. They only indicate what actually happened. And what ACTUALLY happens is that with the same starting 4 and any other player besides Garnett, the Celtics starters give up more than 112 points per 100 possessions. That, to me, is much more telling of their defensive capability than any subjective reputation. Similarly, the Magic tend to be reasonable defensively even when Howard is out. Admittedly, Howard rarely misses time, so the sample size for completely missed games isn't huge. But this is where APM comes into effect...over multi-year samples we're talking thousands and thousands of minutes where Howard was on the bench, and even correcting for the strength of the opponents, Howard's defensive influence just hasn't nearly been as large as Garnett's.

It's not voodoo. It's not handwaving. It's very logical, and it's very well supported both by close observation and thousands of minutes of supporting data across several different sets of teammates. Kevin Garnett just has a larger defensive impact than Dwight Howard. Howard is still an excellent defensive player. Garnett is just better.

[Geaux_Hawks]

If we are talking about anchoring a defense, then yeah, Mutombo and Eaton would have served as better anchors, but improving the franchise better than what KG did is insanely absurd. Neither of those 2 had an offensive game for crying out loud.

Do you forget that KG led the Wolves to the playoffs for many years.

[Geaux_Hawks]

drza with yet another great post exemplifying why Garnett is a defensive anchor

[G35]

@rapcity - the bench minute argument is weak because when Dwight sits, the opposing starters sit too.

@whateverbro - so he's only an anchor with the Celtics?

@drza - how do you know what part of the APM comes from defense and what comes from offense?

RE: @drza...If you go to the 82games.com 5-man units, you'll see that they post both the offensive and defensive ratings for each 5-man unit. The numbers that I focused on in my post earlier in the thread were purely the defensive numbers from those 5-man units.

RE: @whateverbro...no, KG was an anchor in Minnesota too. The issue is, that to build a strong defense, the other 4 starters have to have at least some type of defensive characteristic that can be used (and it helps if the defensive system also makes logical use of that talent). The Wolves, especially of the middle part of the decade, tended to lack that. This is a post where I went into detail describing the personnel and contributions to the defense of the Wolves from 2004 - 2007 ( viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1113634&start=150 , 7th post down on the page). For those that don't want to go through it in depth, here was the summary quote:

"Let's distance this from names, and instead look at the on-court realities. For the '04 - '07 Wolves, the majority of the non-Garnett minutes went to players that weren't just poor defenders...they were defenders that were unable to contribute in any area of defense. They lacked the physical ability (combo of strength, speed and/or height) and/or aptitude to stay in front of their man (often without picks), to make reasonable rotations, or to rebound their positions."

Now, let's move to Dwight Howard. I've repeatedly seen Howard used as an example of building a strong defense with "no good defenders", but really people aren't looking close enough. Lets look at the 2009 Magic as an example.

Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu aren't known as strong defenders, and for good reason. But if you get out of "good" and "bad" and look at what they bring to the table, both are mobile 6-10 players with good length and quickness. Both are "poor" defenders for a PF because they aren't physical enough to push big players off the block, nor are they good rebounders for their size. But they are very good at staying in front of any 4 that faces up and they can do that out to the 3-point line with no issue. Similarly, neither have the footspeed to purely stop a fast 3 from driving to the rim...but both have the length and adequate speed to funnel those players to help.

So, Dwight is an excellent rebounder and paint influence, which covers Shard and Hedo's defensive weaknesses. That part, we all would agree on, and Howard's supporters would say that this is what makes him an anchor. But they don't really look at the flip side...that Hedo's and Shard's strengths make them ideal for a) defending stretch 4s, b) bothering perimeter shooters, and c) helping and switching all over the floor. And when you add to it that Stan Van Gundy is one of the better defensive minds in the game, and that he built a system that maximizes those strengths and hides the weaknesses, you are still able to build a strong defense with those players as key pieces. Yes, it relies upon a good defensive big man to anchor it...nobody is claiming that Howard isn't that. BUT, and this is key, it ALSO relies upon the talents of the other defenders. It's not Howard and 4 bums (like KG often had in Minnesota), it's Howard and a bunch of lesser defenders that are still effective at playing certain defensive roles.

Which is EXACTLY what KG has in Boston. The difference is, for some reason, when Garnett is the person under discussion many people can ONLY see the strengths in his defensive teammates and not their weaknesses. People see that Rondo is excellent at being a disruptor/playing the passing lanes, but don't note that he isn't that good at staying in front of his man. People note that Perkins is good at establishing and holding post defensive position, but not that he isn't mobile enough to provide the help defense that a real anchor provides. People note that Pierce can stay in front of Kobe and maybe block his fade-away, but not that he wasn't really able to do that over the course of his career UNTIL he had Garnett at his back to dissuade the Kobe's of the world from driving. People note that Thibs' defensive schemes are sick (and they are), but they DON'T note that these same Celtics supporting cast in a Thibs system suddenly play poor defense if you replace Garnett with anyone else.

In short, with Dwight's Orlando cast people tend to see all the weaknesses and not the strengths. With KG's Boston cast people tend to see all the strengths and not the weaknesses. But see, here is where the numbers aren't impressed by reputation. They only indicate what actually happened. And what ACTUALLY happens is that with the same starting 4 and any other player besides Garnett, the Celtics starters give up more than 112 points per 100 possessions. That, to me, is much more telling of their defensive capability than any subjective reputation. Similarly, the Magic tend to be reasonable defensively even when Howard is out. Admittedly, Howard rarely misses time, so the sample size for completely missed games isn't huge. But this is where APM comes into effect...over multi-year samples we're talking thousands and thousands of minutes where Howard was on the bench, and even correcting for the strength of the opponents, Howard's defensive influence just hasn't nearly been as large as Garnett's.

It's not voodoo. It's not handwaving. It's very logical, and it's very well supported both by close observation and thousands of minutes of supporting data across several different sets of teammates. Kevin Garnett just has a larger defensive impact than Dwight Howard. Howard is still an excellent defensive player. Garnett is just better.

I agree with what you are saying that Dwight complimented and covered his teammates weaknesses. But those weaknesses are significant. A soft PF and SF are not ideal players to have on your team and can only be used IF you have a player like Dwight. Name one other team that has a SF/PF combo that averages less than 10 rebounds and you will find one sorry defensive team.

What you say about Pierce staying in front of Kobe is true where he couldn't do it over the course of a series if he didn't have a strong frontcourt backing him up. But then that is not voodoo either. Pierce was providing the offense and trying to stay with the premier scorers in the league is too much for anyone. Same thing happened to Wade/Kobe/Jordan when they have to play against elite scorers and don't have the backup. Bruce Bowen wouldn't be as effective without Duncan backing him and funneling players baseline.

I can't see how anyone could think if you put Dwight on the Celtics and they still had Perkins that the Celtics wouldn't still be a defensive juggernaut. But if you put KG with Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkgolu and Jameer Nelson that that combination would not be top 6 in defense for 4 years running.

It's not that KG doesn't have a huge impact but can he have a huge impact on ANY team he is put on. Can you put KG on the Raptors, the Warriors and have them improve significantly. I have no doubt that you Dwight on any team in the league and the defense gets noticeably better.

I think KG has a bigger effect on a team that has a strong defensive mindset and the athletes to carry out the plan. Just like the Celtics did. Pierce/Allen weren't known as defensive stalwarts but they are athletic enough and smart enough (a big factor) in making a team defense work.

It's a question of a team defense vs a team that has just an elite defensive anchor. I think a team defense will be more effective overall such as the Celtics or the Spurs that were some of the best defensive teams of all time.

I think of KG similar to a Bill Russell. I don't think Bill could turn around a sorry team by himself. But you put him on a talented team then they can become unbeatable. Just like KG wasn't able to do much with the Timberwolves I don't think Russell would have won 11 rings if he hadn't gone to the Celtics.....

[Rapcity_11]

Ummmm someone explain to me what the STANDARD is for an elite defensive rating? Dr. MJ was right in that THERE ISN'T a large between the best teams and the worst teams. This isn't college where Duke gets to play Western Michigan. Three points is the difference between being rated 4th defensively and being rated 11th. That's the small window you are working with in the NBA. People don't realize every point is huge in a basketball game. Where do you think the idea of "You only have to watch the last two minutes of a game." came from?

The difference between the 1st and 2nd rated defenses was .2 points. The difference between the Bulls #1 rated defense and the Magic was less than 3 points. So exactly what more will it take to make the Magic elite.....

Considering that you are pushing Dwight as an elite defender who is better than Garnett, than I guess the STANDARD for an elite defensive rating would be better on/off and adjusted +/- numbers than Garnett...am I right?

Again, +3 is good, very good even. Garnett is better by those numbers. Every point is huge? Absolutely. So give me Garnett who is going to help me defend better.

[G35]

Ummmm someone explain to me what the STANDARD is for an elite defensive rating? Dr. MJ was right in that THERE ISN'T a large between the best teams and the worst teams. This isn't college where Duke gets to play Western Michigan. Three points is the difference between being rated 4th defensively and being rated 11th. That's the small window you are working with in the NBA. People don't realize every point is huge in a basketball game. Where do you think the idea of "You only have to watch the last two minutes of a game." came from?

The difference between the 1st and 2nd rated defenses was .2 points. The difference between the Bulls #1 rated defense and the Magic was less than 3 points. So exactly what more will it take to make the Magic elite.....

Considering that you are pushing Dwight as an elite defender who is better than Garnett, than I guess the STANDARD for an elite defensive rating would be better on/off and adjusted +/- numbers than Garnett...am I right?

Again, +3 is good, very good even. Garnett is better by those numbers. Every point is huge? Absolutely. So give me Garnett who is going to help me defend better.

You are trying to put words in my mouth. I'm saying Dwight is a better anchor. I don't think KG is an anchor. I think KG is a better team defender within the team concept. Two different things.

KG hasn't produced any results in a similar situation. Dwight took a sorry Orlando team and has made them a #1 defense with average to below average help. KG did not.......

[Rapcity_11]

Ummmm someone explain to me what the STANDARD is for an elite defensive rating? Dr. MJ was right in that THERE ISN'T a large between the best teams and the worst teams. This isn't college where Duke gets to play Western Michigan. Three points is the difference between being rated 4th defensively and being rated 11th. That's the small window you are working with in the NBA. People don't realize every point is huge in a basketball game. Where do you think the idea of "You only have to watch the last two minutes of a game." came from?

The difference between the 1st and 2nd rated defenses was .2 points. The difference between the Bulls #1 rated defense and the Magic was less than 3 points. So exactly what more will it take to make the Magic elite.....

Considering that you are pushing Dwight as an elite defender who is better than Garnett, than I guess the STANDARD for an elite defensive rating would be better on/off and adjusted +/- numbers than Garnett...am I right?

Again, +3 is good, very good even. Garnett is better by those numbers. Every point is huge? Absolutely. So give me Garnett who is going to help me defend better.

You are trying to put words in my mouth. I'm saying Dwight is a better anchor. I don't think KG is an anchor. I think KG is a better team defender within the team concept. Two different things.

KG hasn't produced any results in a similar situation. Dwight took a sorry Orlando team and has made them a #1 defense with average to below average help. KG did not.......

Where am I putting words in your mouth? By saying you are pushing Dwight as an elite defender?

KG has always been a more impactful defender relative to his teammates.

Have you been ignoring every post by drza, Doc MJ and myself in this thread. You must be, because there is no other explanation...

[Prolific Scorer]

lol @ relative to his teammates... meaning he needs a very good defensive supporting cast to make the kind of impact Dwight Howard makes with inferior talent.

and to drza pushing the KG hasn't had anybody remotely competent defensively agenda. He had more than acceptable defensive talent throughout his prime years in Minnesota. To name a few -- Chauncey Billups, Trenton Hassell, Latrell Sprewell, Eddie Griffin, Ervin Johnson, Rasho Nesterovic; it didn't translate to an elite team defense because KG isn't a true defensive anchor.

[G35]

Where am I putting words in your mouth? By saying you are pushing Dwight as an elite defender?

KG has always been a more impactful defender relative to his teammates.

Have you been ignoring every post by drza, Doc MJ and myself in this thread. You must be, because there is no other explanation...

I can't think of one impactful teammate Dwight has had on defense. He has had at best average defenders. You can come up with whatever numbers you want but the Magic have been an elite defense the last 4 years.

The point to me is that is that it didn't translate into anything concrete when he was in Minnesota. Now I suppose I can grant that KG is an anchor but he is at the bottom of the elite anchors. He isn't an all time great anchor. In 12 years in Minnesota:


1996 missed playoff's/ Def rating 20th
1997 lost in first round/ Def rating 15th
1998 lost in first round/ Def rating 23rd
1999 lost in first round/ Def rating 11th
2000 lost in first round/ Def rating 12th
2001 lost in first round/ Def rating 16th
2002 lost in first round/ Def rating 15th
2003 lost in first round/ Def rating 16th
2004 WCF's/ Def rating 6th
2005 missed playoff's/ Def rating 15th
2006 missed playoff's/ Def rating 10th
2007 missed playoff's/ Def rating 21st

Where is the impact? It's not showing up in the regular season; it's not showing up in the playoff's and it's not showing up in the defensive rating. Stats are just numbers if they don't show up somewhere concrete. Now at least with Steve Nash you can point to how strong his teams have been offensively and in the playoff's. But with KG it's like empty stats. He looks good, the rest of the team looks like crap.

But when he went to a team that was competent his abilities magnified. Everyone knows KG can do it all the court. Undisputed. I would love to add him to an established team. Like the Blazers or the Bulls. KG in his prime with the Bulls would wreck the league. But if you put KG on an up and coming team or an average to below average team his impact just isn't felt like Dwight's is.

Now Dwight didn't blow up defensively immediately either since he was also a high school draftee. But look at the difference in impact and team performance:

2005 missed playoff's/ Def rating 18th
2006 missed playoff's/ Def rating 24th
2007 lost first round/ Def rating 6th
2008 Semi-finals/ Def rating 6th
2009 NBA finals/ Def rating 1st
2010 ECF's/ Def rating 3rd
2011 lost in first round/ Def rating 3rd

You clearly see regular season impact, playoff impact and the team defense impact. And I really don't see where Orlando has ever had a great team around Dwight. He hasn't had a great supporting cast with Hedo or Rashard being his next best players around him. And both of them are limited defensively.

I just don't see KG's impact as being a last line of defense. His ability is in making defensive adjustments vocally along with his unique talent at guarding a range of players.....

[Geaux_Hawks]

G35, you should really take a look at the actual dRtg KG teams posted and compare them to when Dwight came into the league up until now.. Notice I said actual dRtg and not where it ranked in the league.

[Rapcity_11]

G35 are you really posting team Drtg again? That's been covered in this thread. All your doing is giving Howard more credit for having better defensive teammates and playing in a better system. By APM and on/off numbers, KG's impact is clearly greater, yet you keep ignoring that...