RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread

postertag · Post #121 » by **postertag** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:06 pm

Don't have a vote, but just wondering: when will the "older" old guys like Pettit and Mikan start getting consideration, if at all?

Expert-Sizzle · Post #122 » by **Expert-Sizzle** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:44 pm

DavidStern wrote:BTW, how many players won DPOTY, MVP and finals MVP?

Not sure.

Shaq was robbed of DPOY in 2000 so technically he did do it.

Duncan was arguably the best defender in 03 also when he won MVP/FMVP although his case is worse then Shaq's imo.

Dr Positivity · Post #123 » by **Dr Positivity** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:55 pm

Just 94 Hakeem

ThaRegul8r · Post #124 » by **ThaRegul8r** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:27 pm

Dr Positivity wrote:Just 94 Hakeem

"Officially," of course, as the Defensive Player of the Year Award is a relatively recent accolade. But "technically," as Expert-Sizzle said above, Hakeem was hardly the first player in the history of the league to be the league's best defensive player, most valuable player, and most valuable player of the NBA Finals in the same season. He was just the first player to receive awards for it. Though of course, you already know this, but others might not. Doesn't take away from the accomplishment by any means, but still one must put it in historical context.

Post #125 » by **Doctor MJ** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:44 pm

postertag wrote:Don't have a vote, but just wondering: when will the "older" old guys like Pettit and Mikan start getting consideration, if at all?

Tough to say. Best guesstimates though would be based on where Pettit stacked up in the last Top 100, and then look at the guys below him to see if they had erratic careers. Anyone with a stable career that Pettit beat last time, you'd expect him to have a shot to beat him here.

So, Pettit might starting play in the mid-20.

bastillon · Post #126 » by **bastillon** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:07 pm

ThaRegul8r wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:Just 94 Hakeem

"Officially," of course, as the Defensive Player of the Year Award is a relatively recent accolade. But "technically," as Expert-Sizzle said above, Hakeem was hardly the first player in the history of the league to be the league's best defensive player, most valuable player, and most valuable player of the NBA Finals in the same season. He was just the first player to receive awards for it. Though of course, you already know this, but others might not. Doesn't take away from the accomplishment by any means, but still one must put it in historical context.

Walton could get it, but he didn't stay healthy for the entire season so it was hard for him to gather all those awards at the same time.

so only Russell and Wilt are realistic candidates. Wilt only won 2 titles and he rather wasn't the best defensive player in the league in either of those years (Russell and Thurmond in 67, Thurmond in 72 - that's the year he embarassed Kareem in the playoffs, holding him to 40% FG shooting, he was insane that year). Russell was the DPOY pretty much every year and he would be winning finals MVP like crazy since he was winning all those titles.

so other than Hakeem I think Russell would do it several times but he's really the only one who has a legit case.

GrangerDanger · Post #127 » by **GrangerDanger** » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:31 pm

^

Kareem in 80 would have probably won it. I'm pretty sure Wilt would have won in 67 too, even though Russell was better. Awards don't always go to the most deserving

Dr Positivity · Post #128 » by **Dr Positivity** » Sat Sep 1, 2012 3:59 am

This project is the worst thing to ever happen to Kobe's ATL rank :lol:

The whole idea that he should be a lock to be the 10th or 11th guy is now proven to be a myth. If KG, Oscar, West, Erving, etc. are trouncing him in peak, he definitely shouldn't be penciled in that high. I've had KG over him for a while but I feel pretty strongly about putting Oscar over him from now on too

Post #129 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sat Sep 1, 2012 4:11 am

Dr Positivity wrote:This project is the worst thing to ever happen to Kobe's ATL rank The whole idea that he should be a lock to be the 10th or 11th guy is now proven to be a myth. If KG, Oscar, West, Erving, etc. are trouncing him in peak, he definitely shouldn't be penciled in that high. I've had KG over him for a while but I feel pretty strongly about putting Oscar over him from now on too

Going to be interesting to see how that plays out.

Something I will say in Kobe's defense is that his longevity is outstanding, and this difference in peaks we're talking about here is nothing like a blowout.

Radbe · Post #130 » by **Radbe** » Sat Sep 1, 2012 4:42 am

yeah, too bad kobe's peak is easily top 15 ever. only thing the project shows is the clear anti-kobe bias around here.

therealbig3 · Post #131 » by **therealbig3** » Sat Sep 1, 2012 5:22 am

All time, I've got Kobe at 14, behind the conventional 9 guys (Jordan, Wilt, Shaq, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Duncan, Bird, Hakeem), in addition to KG, Erving, Oscar, and LeBron.

I don't think it's that controversial. He didn't really peak that incredibly high, in terms of who he's generally compared to. I know some people don't want to hear that, but it's true.

thebottomline · Post #132 » by **thebottomline** » Sat Sep 1, 2012 5:24 am

1963 Oscar surprised me. Per 75 poss (using simple method for pace I got from ElGee's blog):

1963 RS: 19.4 pts, 7.2 rebs, 6.5 asts, +9.6 TS% ... PS: 20.0 pts, 8.2 rebs, 5.7 asts, +7.7 TS%
1964 RS: 21.7 pts, 6.9 rebs, 7.6 asts, +9.1 TS% ... PS: 19.8 pts, 6.0 rebs, 5.7 asts, +9.2 TS%

So compared to 1963, Oscar in 1964 was...

RS: +2.3 pts, -0.3 rebs, +1.1 asts, -0.5 TS% ... PS: -0.2 pts, -2.2 rebs, +0 asts, +1.5 TS%

Aside from rebounding, 1963 Oscar's advantages were pretty miniscule while 1964 Oscar's advantages were a bit larger. The Royals also performed better across the board in 1964 compared to 1963. I'd give the edge to 1964 Oscar here, better individual numbers overall imo and better team numbers.

Oscar's performance against the Celtics in 1963 isn't enough for me to side with 1963 over 1964. I mean are we forgetting that 1964 was the Celtics defensive peak by a considerable margin (and 2 points better than their 1963 defense). This would kind of be like arguing 2010 Kobe's playoffs > 2008 Kobe's playoffs because 2008 Kobe ran into a better version of the Celtics defense and put up slightly worse numbers. Not to mention the injuries to Oscar and Lucas in the 64 playoffs that PTB pointed out.

Radbe · Post #133 » by **Radbe** » Sat Sep 1, 2012 5:35 am

how are oscar,erving, and lebron ahead of bryant all-time? wtf.

this dude had bryant at #10, then he moved him to #12. then #15. now hes at #14. he flip-flops more than romney. smh.

and he has a top 15 peak ever. so yes, he did peak incredibly high.

therealbig3 · Post #134 » by **therealbig3** » Sat Sep 1, 2012 5:42 am

Radbe wrote:how are oscar,erving, and lebron ahead of bryant all-time? wtf.

this dude had bryant at #10, then he moved him to #12. then #15. now hes at #14. he flip-flops more than romney. smh.

and he has a top 15 peak ever. so yes, he did peak incredibly high.

Not flip-flopping...everyone on that level is so incredibly close, and I always re-evaluate my list, so yeah, players move around a lot (and you really need to stop being so insecure...it's not just Kobe that I move around).

Sure, you could make a case he's got a top 15 peak, but it's very debatable.

Radbe · Post #135 » by **Radbe** » Sat Sep 1, 2012 5:50 am

funny. i have the sneaking suspicion that if your favorite players with peaks on the same general level like wade/t-mac...if they had the type of longevity/accomplishments bryant has... they'd be indisputably in your top 10-12. probably firmly in your top 10.

you'll deny it, but you know its true. your clearly biased against the guy.

and his peak is easily top 15 ever.

therealbig3 · Post #136 » by **therealbig3** » Sat Sep 1, 2012 5:55 am

Radbe wrote:you'll deny it, but you know its true. your clearly biased against the guy.

Ok, so since I can't change your mind, whatever, believe what you want. I've defended Kobe strongly when I feel he's being slighted too, so I don't know what else to say.

Radbe · Post #137 » by **Radbe** » Sat Sep 1, 2012 5:58 am

whatever.

ardee · Post #138 » by **ardee** » Sat Sep 1, 2012 7:02 am

Dr Positivity wrote:This project is the worst thing to ever happen to Kobe's ATL rank The whole idea that he should be a lock to be the 10th or 11th guy is now proven to be a myth. If KG, Oscar, West, Erving, etc. are trouncing him in peak, he definitely shouldn't be penciled in that high. I've had KG over him for a while but I feel pretty strongly about putting Oscar over him from now on too

But other than KG and maybe Oscar, he trounces them all in longevity. Plus he's a better playoff performer than all of them except West.

For some to average 30-5-4 in the Playoffs in their 17th season, longevity wise he's arguably only behind Kareem and Malone.

And like Doc said, the difference in peaks here is minimal. If Kobe wins a third ring as the team's best player and has a good season and sparky Playoff run, it's going to be hard for people to keep him out of the top 8 based on career alone.

ElGee · Post #139 » by **ElGee** » Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:15 pm

With Dirk and Nash coming up...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usDpG9ijnew&feature=related[/youtube]

Expert-Sizzle · Post #140 » by **Expert-Sizzle** » Sat Sep 1, 2012 6:56 pm

ardee wrote:For some to average 30-5-4 in the Playoffs in their 17th season, longevity wise he's arguably only behind Kareem and Malone.

He is still well behind Shaq also.

Shaq : 11 Super-Star Seasons and 5-6 All-Star level Seasons
Kobe : 4-5 Super-Star Seasons and 8 All-Star level Seasons

Overall
Shaq : 16-17
Kobe : 12-13