Lebron right now vs Shaq at his best: who is more valuable?

LakerLegend · Post #121 » by **LakerLegend** » Fri May 10, 2013 5:24 am

Hakeem's 94 and 95 playoff runs were more impressive than anything LeBron's shown. Dominating on both ends against multiple championship contenders each year while completely outplaying all time superstars at his own position.....meanwhile LeBron struggles to get past an ancient and broken down Celtics team.

te887848 · Post #122 » by **te887848** » Fri May 10, 2013 11:51 am

That's it? Because none of Hakeem's playoff runs were actually close to as dominant as LeBron 2012 and LeBron 2009. Not to mention none of his regular seasons are in the same class as LeBron 2009, 2010, and 2013. Hakeem could never lead LeBron's Cavs to 66 wins in 2009. He won far less with more help than LeBron had throughout his career and just wasn't as dominant or efficient offensively. With Shaq we're talking about a guy who won a measly 50 games and got swept in the second round in 2003 and lost 4-1 to one of the worst Finals teams ever, and was only good enough for 1 MVP, all in his prime. Hakeem or Shaq compared to LeBron? Please...

trakobe · Post #123 » by **trakobe** » Fri May 10, 2013 5:40 pm

te887848 wrote:That's it? Because none of Hakeem's playoff runs were actually close to as dominant as LeBron 2012 and LeBron 2009

Oh really?

Geaux_Hawks · Post #124 » by **Geaux_Hawks** » Fri May 10, 2013 6:40 pm

te887848 wrote:That's it? Because none of Hakeem's playoff runs were actually close to as dominant as LeBron 2012 and LeBron 2009. Not to mention none of his regular seasons are in the same class as LeBron 2009, 2010, and 2013. Hakeem could never lead LeBron's Cavs to 66 wins in 2009. He won far less with more help than LeBron had throughout his career and just wasn't as dominant or efficient offensively. With Shaq we're talking about a guy who won a measly 50 games and got swept in the second round in 2003 and lost 4-1 to one of the worst Finals teams ever, and was only good enough for 1 MVP, all in his prime. Hakeem or Shaq compared to LeBron? Please...

How much is Lebron paying you to troll right now with this post. This is beyond absurd. In a league where the big man is practically non-existent, Shaq or Hakeem would destroy the league. Lebron is the so called best player in the league by a gap and he's having a tough time trying to beat a Bulls team without their star PG, possibly best wing defender, and current starters licking their wounds, with one of the most stacked teams in the league. Shaq has 1 MVP, but do you realize who his competition was for MVP? Do you realize who Shaq faced during his career? Do you even know Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Hakee...well nvm you don't know him. The point is, I didn't even name every great player or even team that Shaq has played against throughtout his career, but comparing those few names to what Lebron has seen, I must say I would feel pretty confident in betting that Shaq would kill to be in this current league. He would be a better version of Wilt.

te887848 · Post #125 » by **te887848** » Fri May 10, 2013 7:13 pm

Oh really?

Yes.

How much is Lebron paying you to troll right now with this post. This is beyond absurd. In a league where the big man is practically non-existent, Shaq or Hakeem would destroy the league. Lebron is the so called best player in the league by a gap and he's having a tough time trying to beat a Bulls team without their star PG, possibly best wing defender, and current starters licking their wounds, with one of the most stacked teams in the league. Shaq has 1 MVP, but do you realize who his competition was for MVP? Do you realize who Shaq faced during his career? Do you even know Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Hakee...well nvm you don't know him. The point is, I didn't even name every great player or even team that Shaq has played against throughtout his career, but comparing those few names to what Lebron has seen, I must say I would feel pretty confident in betting that Shaq would kill to be in this current league. He would be a better version of Wilt.

No it isn’t. This trendy phenomenon of underrating the current player and overrating the past player simply amazes me. We are not comparing Jordan to LeBron here (which is actually close). We’re talking about Hakeem. No reasonable argument can be made that Hakeem was ever better than LeBron has been these past 5 years. Shaq is closer to LeBron but still is the inferior overall player. None of the stats back up the assertion that Shaq had a better peak than 2008-2013 LeBron, never mind a clearly better one as many are comically trying to argue.

And who said Shaq/Hakeem wouldn’t destroy this league? Both were great players and thus would destroy any era, just like LeBron would destroy any era as well. LeBron’s competition at various points throughout his career have been Kobe, Wade, Durant, Paul, etc. Perimeter play was at its peak in 2008-2010 with Paul, Kobe, and Wade playing at an all-time level, yet LeBron was clearly the superior player to them all. Shaq’s 00’s competition wasn’t anything special.

E-Balla · Post #126 » by **E-Balla** » Fri May 10, 2013 7:30 pm

Hakeem wasn't as good as Lebron?

Ewing's stats in 94 playoffs pre Finals - 23.1/11.4/2.9, 54.1 TS, 107 ORTG.
Ewing's stats against Hakeem in Finals - 18.9/12.4/1.7, 39.0 TS, 85 ORTG.

He did that while putting up 26.9/9.1/3.6. Lebron's never hit that type of domination.

te887848 · Post #127 » by **te887848** » Fri May 10, 2013 7:43 pm

GC Pantalones wrote:Hakeem wasn't as good as Lebron?

Ewing's stats in 94 playoffs pre Finals - 23.1/11.4/2.9, 54.1 TS, 107 ORTG.
Ewing's stats against Hakeem in Finals - 18.9/12.4/1.7, 39.0 TS, 85 ORTG.

He did that while putting up 26.9/9.1/3.6. Lebron's never hit that type of domination.

Sure he has. See: 2009 playoffs (35/9/7 37.4 PER) and 2012 playoffs (30/10/6, 30.3 PER). Those were entire playoff runs and not just one series as well. Hakeem has never approached a level of dominance like that. And by the way, LeBron's 2009 ECF against Orlando puts that Hakeem series against the Knicks to shame, so saying that "LeBron never hit that type of domination" for even a single series is just flat out wrong.

E-Balla · Post #128 » by **E-Balla** » Fri May 10, 2013 7:57 pm

There's 2 sides to the ball. Against Orlando Lebron (and the rest of the team) played no defense at all. That's why they lost.

te887848 · Post #129 » by **te887848** » Fri May 10, 2013 8:11 pm

LeBron has locked down opposing teams' premier offensive weapons on several occasions during his playoff career, so bringing up defense as a weakness of LeBron does not make for a strong argument. He is one of the most impactful and best defensive players to ever play. Furthermore, they didn’t lose that series because of LeBron’s defense but rather because his team was putrid. Hakeem never had such little help in the playoffs (no, not in ’94 or ’95). Hakeem's negligible defensive edge (if he even has any) does not compensate for LeBron's gigantic edge on offense.

nunemouse · Post #130 » by **nunemouse** » Fri May 10, 2013 8:47 pm

GC Pantalones wrote:There's 2 sides to the ball. Against Orlando Lebron (and the rest of the team) played no defense at all. That's why they lost.

Prove to me that his defense was the reason they lost that series.

PetroNet · Post #131 » by **PetroNet** » Fri May 10, 2013 9:27 pm

its mind boggling how badly 17 year old trolls who have never seen shaq or hakeem in their primes play dimsmiss them so easlily.

Put prime shaq on any team in the league right now and they win 58+ and go to the finals. any team

te887848 · Post #132 » by **te887848** » Fri May 10, 2013 9:38 pm

Shaq on the Bobcats going to the Finals? :rofl:

On teams like the Cavs, Pistons, Bucks, Wolves, Kings, Suns, Hornets, Wizards, Magic, etc? A guy who won over 58 games just thrice in his entire career playing with the likes of Hardaway and prime Kobe is somehow going to drag today's worst teams to 58+ wins and the Finals? The overrating of Shaq continues.

RayBan-Sematra · Post #133 » by **RayBan-Sematra** » Fri May 10, 2013 10:47 pm

Shaq was a far greater defensive force at his Peak.

During the 3peat there were many games where he would single handidly turn opposing squads into jump shooting teams by shutting down the paint.
He was just a complete monster on that end when he was focused.

That is why I rank his Peak over Jordan's let alone Lebron's (who I think is well below both of them).

Neither of them could match his complete overall impact and raw dominance when you combine offense, defense & intangibles.
Dude just had a presence that he held over the entire court when he was on the floor that I have never seen before or since. He imposed his will on every game.
It was like everything revolved around him.
It was like he was Jupiter and the other players were little moons spinning around him.

He would dunk over 3 guys on one end and then block a shot into the cheap seats on the other end.
He would break the will of opposing teams.

john248 · Post #134 » by **john248** » Sat May 11, 2013 9:24 am

Nothing against Lebron, but Shaq was a beast at center. Have a post player like him, and it's easier to build around. Those playoff battles against deep teams like the Blazers and Kings were fun to watch. Again, not a knock on Lebron who's only 2nd to Jordan when it comes to perimeter players though I do like seeing Lebron play the 4, posting up more, and initiating the offense out of the post at times. But he's not going to make guys think twice about coming into the lane.

nurseryc · Post #135 » by **nurseryc** » Sat May 11, 2013 12:05 pm

Shaq no question

franktony · Post #136 » by **franktony** » Sat May 11, 2013 1:39 pm

nurseryc · Post #137 » by **nurseryc** » Sat May 11, 2013 4:21 pm

franktony wrote:Shaq

the legend of lebron has become epic since his first title in 7 years lol. Shaq has this topic debate clearly.

Massamba · Post #138 » by **Massamba** » Sat May 11, 2013 5:17 pm

Rules changed, we can't make any comparison. It was easier in the early 2000's for stars to shine, but i'd pick Shaq as the most dominant players of the post Jordan era.

PetroNet · Post #139 » by **PetroNet** » Sat May 11, 2013 8:18 pm

te887848 wrote:Shaq on the Bobcats going to the Finals? On teams like the Cavs, Pistons, Bucks, Wolves, Kings, Suns, Hornets, Wizards, Magic, etc? A guy who won over 58 games just thrice in his entire career playing with the likes of Hardaway and prime Kobe is somehow going to drag today's worst teams to 58+ wins and the Finals? The overrating of Shaq continues.

how many times he won 58 games when he played is irrelevant. it was a different era with much better bigs. now, his dominace would be even greater then it was in his prime. he'd be the MVP and DPOY. and by a pretty large margin. who is beating a shaq led bobcats team? certainly not the heat or pacers or spurs

PetroNet · Post #140 » by **PetroNet** » Sat May 11, 2013 8:22 pm

RayBan-Sematra wrote:
Neither of them could match his complete overall impact and raw dominance when you combine offense, defense & intangibles.
Dude just had a presence that he held over the entire court when he was on the floor that I have never seen before or since. He imposed his will on every game.
It was like everything revolved around him.
It was like he was Jupiter and the other players were little moons spinning around him.

He would dunk over 3 guys on one end and then block a shot into the cheap seats on the other end.
He would break the will of opposing teams.

this. exactly. you cant really measure dominance and forcing the flow and feel of the game with stats. other then maybe barkley in his MVP year i cant recall anyone ever imposing his will on games the way shaq did during that run.

the other thing is. you couldnt effectively get the ball out of shaqs hands and make others beat you. he could score on hard doubles. he could score with an entire teams focus on him. he could beat you even if your gameplan was to make anyone else beat you

Lebron 2013 vs peak Shaq