2012-13 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

E-Balla · Post #121 » by **E-Balla** » Mon May 13, 2013 7:04 pm

It's not just this thread either. Last tread I started he randomly strayed way off topic to bash Kobe. I'm not pointing out MeloMiracle because everyone in this thread has done it already. Why constantly pile on?

Also Melo's not my favorite player. He just gets unessessarily hated more than anyone in the league right now so I find myself defending him more than others. When people turn on KD (for example because I rarely find myself defending him) and start bashing him for no reason I'll call them out too.

nunemouse · Post #122 » by **nunemouse** » Mon May 13, 2013 7:12 pm

I apologize for assuming he was your favorite player. And you are right on it not being necessary to point that poster out. Nevertheless, I don't think it OK to bring something that happened in some other thread and to call someone a troll while quoting a post that has no scent of trolling.

Also, you think everyone is "hating" Melo? People have different approaches to the game, they can value certain aspects of it more than others. If people are "hating" a player, they go out of their way to discredit him for his accomplishments, often using a volatile criteria to do so (ie not applying the same methods for every player). But you can't call someone a "hater" if the rationale they use simply doesn't give as much importance to a player as the one that you use does.

ardee · Post #123 » by **ardee** » Tue May 14, 2013 3:31 am

I hope this latest game has convinced people to move Wade out of the running for top 5....

therealbig3 · Post #124 » by **therealbig3** » Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 am

ardee wrote:I hope this latest game has convinced people to move Wade out of the running for top 5....

Yeah he's been bad, I'm really beginning to worry about the Heat in general, because as great as LeBron is (and I think he's going to prove why in the conference finals and the finals, if they get there), the Heat are going to need at least a semi-effective Wade in order to win.

I don't know who takes his spot though. Can't really put Melo over him either, because he's sucked in the playoffs as well. So did Harden. The three biggest contenders for top 5 all played/are playing very poorly in the playoffs. I think I'll give the nod to Gasol at this point, tbh.

SideshowBob · Post #125 » by **SideshowBob** » Tue May 14, 2013 3:53 am

^^Agreed, I'm having the same issue, as I can't really pinpoint who to give his spot to. I'm not sold on any of the Spurs being at that level, though I wish I could give Pop a POY vote. Harden flamed out, I was never high on Anthony to begin with, George isn't quite there yet, etc. Gasol's definitely a strong candidate in my mind.

Narigo · Post #126 » by **Narigo** » Tue May 14, 2013 3:59 am

SideshowBob wrote:^^Agreed, I'm having the same issue, as I can't really pinpoint who to give his spot to. I'm not sold on any of the Spurs being at that level, though I wish I could give Pop a POY vote. Harden flamed out, I was never high on Anthony to begin with, George isn't quite there yet, etc. Gasol's definitely a strong candidate in my mind.

Well u still have Kobe :wink:

Post #127 » by **Doctor MJ** » Tue May 14, 2013 4:10 am

GC Pantalones wrote:It's not just this thread either. Last tread I started he randomly strayed way off topic to bash Kobe. I'm not pointing out MeloMiracle because everyone in this thread has done it already. Why constantly pile on?

Also Melo's not my favorite player. He just gets unessessarily hated more than anyone in the league right now so I find myself defending him more than others. When people turn on KD (for example because I rarely find myself defending him) and start bashing him for no reason I'll call them out too.

The phenomenon of getting polarized relating to a player I well understand. And I understand how it all feeds on itself.

I've been arguing against Melo for years because he's been seen by many as the next best thing to LeBron despite never having anything like superstar impact. This year we finally see him break through and while I acknowledge it, I'm still to the more negative side of the assessments of him than most. Easy to see how someone could come in and say "Jeez, this guy can't get a fair break even when he's doing the right things."

therealbig3 · Post #128 » by **therealbig3** » Tue May 14, 2013 4:27 am

SideshowBob wrote:^^Agreed, I'm having the same issue, as I can't really pinpoint who to give his spot to. I'm not sold on any of the Spurs being at that level, though I wish I could give Pop a POY vote. Harden flamed out, I was never high on Anthony to begin with, George isn't quite there yet, etc. Gasol's definitely a strong candidate in my mind.

What's your assessment of D-Will? You really think George deserves a mention over him?

Like I said before, I think D-Will is getting massively underrated by most...he was still a top 10 player on the season, imo, mainly because of a pretty overlooked post-ASB tear, and an overexaggerated dropoff pre-ASB.

SideshowBob · Post #129 » by **SideshowBob** » Tue May 14, 2013 4:34 am

therealbig3 wrote:
SideshowBob wrote:^^Agreed, I'm having the same issue, as I can't really pinpoint who to give his spot to. I'm not sold on any of the Spurs being at that level, though I wish I could give Pop a POY vote. Harden flamed out, I was never high on Anthony to begin with, George isn't quite there yet, etc. Gasol's definitely a strong candidate in my mind.

What's your assessment of D-Will? You really think George deserves a mention over him?

Like I said before, I think D-Will is getting massively underrated by most...he was still a top 10 player on the season, imo.

Glad that you brought him up, because he just slipped my mind honestly. Yeah, I'd have him over George (while also saying that I believe that George would belong in an underrated list as well). NJ's performance in the calendar year of 2013 was obviously very strong and he was the driving force. And FWIW I thought he was awesome against Chicago as well, so I was a bit surprised at how much he was being bashed in that series. What more was he supposed to have done :dontknow:

There were people on him for "disappearing" in the 3rd OT of game 4, which was strange to me. The dude's carried the team all season long and has played half a quarter more than anyone else on the team in triple OT, what gives?

therealbig3 · Post #130 » by **therealbig3** » Tue May 14, 2013 4:48 am

SideshowBob wrote:Yeah, I'd have him over George (while also saying that I believe that George would belong in an underrated list as well)

Agreed, although I'm not sure if I'd have him really anywhere close to this high. I think of him as maybe a top 20 player, at best. You have him in your top 10? Could you explain, maybe I'm really underrating him. To be fair, he is one of my favorite young players and I think the sky's the limit when it comes to his potential. But offensively, he's got a lot of room to grow, because I feel like he's WAY too reliant on the 3-ball for offense. His defense is outstanding though.

SideshowBob wrote:And FWIW I thought he was awesome against Chicago as well, so I was a bit surprised at how much he was being bashed in that series. What more was he supposed to have done

Thank you! I don't know if I'd say awesome, because as a Nets fan, I thought he should have played a lot better in games 2 and 3, but he played very well overall, and the Nets losing had a lot more to do with coaching and other players than with D-Will, tbh. PJ played connect 4 to Thib's chess, and was playing some really bad lineups. And although Lopez played well in games 1-5...he played horribly in games 6 and 7 and was totally destroyed by Noah. Joe Johnson was non-existent the entire time. Hard to find fault with D-Will when he averaged 21/8 (great efficiency too) against an excellent defense while his two best teammates disappeared at the most important times.

Mainly because of his post-ASB play, and his playoff performance, and because I'm really considering ElGee's method of looking at how players play at the end of the season as most important...D-Will is probably #9 on my list. As of now, I'm sure of my top 4:

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Paul
4. Curry

After that, I would have had Wade/Harden/Gasol/Melo barely ahead of D-Will...but if Wade/Harden/Melo are all being knocked down because of a poor playoffs, then if Gasol is getting a shout-out for top 5...D-Will deserves one too imo.

And I agree with you, I think the Spurs success is more on Pop than on any one player on the Spurs, and I don't think either Parker or Duncan are quite on this level at this time.

SideshowBob wrote:NJ's performance in the calendar year of 2013

Brooklyn's :wink:

SideshowBob · Post #131 » by **SideshowBob** » Tue May 14, 2013 5:04 am

therealbig3 wrote:Agreed, although I'm not sure if I'd have him really anywhere close to this high. I think of him as maybe a top 20 player, at best. You have him in your top 10? Could you explain, maybe I'm really underrating him. To be fair, he is one of my favorite young players and I think the sky's the limit when it comes to his potential. But offensively, he's got a lot of room to grow, because I feel like he's WAY to reliant on the 3-ball for offense. His defense is outstanding though.

Ehh, that's my fault. My thought process with the "not quite there yet" statement was more along the lines of him being a guy I can see myself considering in the future. I don't know if I'd even have him top 10 just quite yet. As I said, I should have been clearer, lets say I was thinking aloud.

That said, what do you think of his defense? Personally, I think he's already close to the Artest/Kirlenko/09-12 James/Battier level, and he's shown similarities stylistically. Even just plain adequacy on offense coupled with that level of defense would be enough to put him at least in my top 15 off the top of my head, and I think he's pretty solid on that end. Definitely has room to grow; I think the way he's developing would suggest that he'd be the kind of guy that's always going to fit in offensively, and I suppose 3 point shooting is a key for that matter, so I'd like to see him either REALLY work on that (or try to cut reliance on it as you're getting at).

Mainly because of his post-ASB play, and his playoff performance, and because I'm really considering ElGee's method of looking at how players play at the end of the season as most important...D-Will is probably #9 on my list. As of now, I'm sure of my top 4:

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Paul
4. Curry

After that, I would have had Wade/Harden/Gasol/Melo barely ahead of D-Will...but if Wade/Harden/Melo are all being knocked down because of a poor playoffs, then if Gasol is getting a shout-out for top 5...D-Will deserves one too imo.

Hmm. I'm still not sure I'd have Anthony over him if we're using that standard, though it would be close because Carmelo was definitely rolling in that last month. That only lead into poor play in the PS however, so I don't know how sold I am on a hot stretch in April, and there's still the matter of him being a negative defensively. If we're talking about his offense on a season-wide level, the change I saw this year was not him actually doing something significantly different from what we've already seen, but rather NY's offensive design putting him in a position that was less detrimental to the rest of the flow than his earlier versions had been (I liked fatal's thoughts on this a few weeks back). Credit him for improving his spot up shooting to thrive in that position, and I can't deny that actual box-score production has impact in itself (though its small, much smaller than generally perceived), but I think what I'm getting at is that Carmelo having a career season isn't that impressive to me, because the initial standard wasn't that high to begin with.

SideshowBob wrote:NJ's performance in the calendar year of 2013

Brooklyn's

Damn, I thought I'd have had that down by now :oops:

ronnymac2 · Post #132 » by **ronnymac2** » Tue May 14, 2013 12:16 pm

Well, I've still got LeBron/Durant/Paul, then Curry at 4. I think D-Will would be a solid pick at 5. He's one of the most underrated playoff performers of his generation, and he showed how great he could be despite getting little help vs. an elite defense.

I don't think James Harden played badly in that first round series, so he's still a contender for me. Honestly, it's probably between Harden and Williams for my fifth spot. Wade, too. And Melo if he can some sucking so much.

I'm loving Marc Gasol's game, but what's the argument for him over Joakim Noah?

Does anybody think Mike Conley deserves an HM? Because's he's impressing the hell out of me, too.

Not horribly off-topic...What does everybody think Klay Thompson's potential is? Seems like a good defender, heady offensive player, and lights out shooter. I think he may have the ball-handling base to be just a tad below Harden as an offensive player in the future.

iceman_rose · Post #133 » by **iceman_rose** » Tue May 14, 2013 2:07 pm

For sure, Curry deserve a TOP 3 spot, for all of his plays during this year and current playoffs.

GSP · Post #134 » by **GSP** » Tue May 14, 2013 2:56 pm

Harden was worse in the playoffs than Melo and Melo has played against better defenses.Bostons Drtg is skewed b/c of how many games Kg sat out which he wouldve played if they were in serious threat of missing the playoffs. Melo can just do a lot more Hardens game is the most hot and cold out of any star player. He either has those ridiculous 7/8 3pt shooting games or is complete garbage Id say hes the most high variance star in the league easily and it shows by Houstons high variance performances in the season.
Who do you all think has had a better series against the Grizz so far Kd or Cp3?

colts18 · Post #135 » by **colts18** » Tue May 14, 2013 4:24 pm

Wade definitely has no argument for the top 5 at this point.

E-Balla · Post #136 » by **E-Balla** » Tue May 14, 2013 5:23 pm

ronnymac2 wrote:Well, I've still got LeBron/Durant/Paul, then Curry at 4. I think D-Will would be a solid pick at 5. He's one of the most underrated playoff performers of his generation, and he showed how great he could be despite getting little help vs. an elite defense.

What puts Deron over Conley. Unlike Deron Conley is actually playing well over what his numbers suggest while Deron was finding ways to play bad and still put up 32/11.

I don't think James Harden played badly in that first round series, so he's still a contender for me. Honestly, it's probably between Harden and Williams for my fifth spot. Wade, too. And Melo if he can some sucking so much.

Harden couldn't hit a shot, played no defense, and kept turning the ball over at the end of games. If I expected his regular season play in the playoffs he easily gets most disappointing. Also Wade should be barely contending for top 10 the way he's playing. He's been absolute crap and I know some will bring up the injury but Melo and Curry are injured and they're playing well above Wade's level. Also to the argument that he could do more he was 3-10 last game. That's where he's at right now.

I'm loving Marc Gasol's game, but what's the argument for him over Joakim Noah?

He's most likely better defensively (Noah hasn't convinced me he's the best defender on his team yet), he's better in every single way offensively. Anything you think of offensively Gasol is two levels above him. I think Noah is getting extremely overrated. Bulls aren't that good they just got lucky and played Brooklyn (who did things like give up 16 point leads in 3-4 minutes).

Does anybody think Mike Conley deserves an HM? Because's he's impressing the hell out of me, too.

Screw a HM if Deron's in your top 5 he deserves the 5th spot.

Not horribly off-topic...What does everybody think Klay Thompson's potential is? Seems like a good defender, heady offensive player, and lights out shooter. I think he may have the ball-handling base to be just a tad below Harden as an offensive player in the future.

He's just a great shooter. His handles are shaky at best, he can't really create on his own (like a slow, unathletic Brad Beal handling the ball), and I'm not going to make believe I saw a lot from him this year before the playoffs but in his rookie season he was a bad defender. He'll be Kyle Korver with more volume at his peak I think. Personally I though he went way too high in the draft and that for a spot up shooter to go that high it needed to be a weak year (it wasn't) or he needed to show some athletic ability/handles in college (he didn't).

ronnymac2 · Post #137 » by **ronnymac2** » Tue May 14, 2013 7:38 pm

I'm not sure what you are saying in that first 'graph about Conley and Williams.

Nah, Harden wasn't great, but he wasn't worse than what Melo has been doing (I'm a Knicks fan btw, and though Melo isn't my favorite player by any stretch, I root for him and think people misunderstand his improvement this year, i.e. they underrate his value on the Knicks). Melo's idiotic shooting and poor finishing close to the hoop (don't give a **** about the injury) have really hurt NY's offense in a decent amount of playoff games this year.

It's perfectly reasonable to have Harden over Melo if one thinks Harden's regular season was equal or better. I myself am still debating.

I'd agree about Wade and Gasol though. If Wade had to carry a team right now, that team would be dead.

therealbig3 · Post #138 » by **therealbig3** » Tue May 14, 2013 8:01 pm

@ Conley over D-Will.

The only thing Conley does better than D-Will is defend, and that's not nearly a large enough advantage when you consider that D-Will is a much better offensive player.

therealbig3 · Post #139 » by **therealbig3** » Tue May 14, 2013 8:04 pm

Oh, and why I have Gasol over Noah:

I think Gasol is better offensively, by quite a bit. Noah is an excellent passer, which is where most of his offensive value comes from...Gasol is an excellent passer as well. And unlike Noah, Gasol has a legitimate back to the basket game, and he's a better outside shooter. To me, that gives Gasol a lot more value offensively than Noah.

And defensively, you could argue that they're similar, but I'd personally take Gasol. At the very least, Gasol to me has equal defense and better offense, which is why he's better.

GSP · Post #140 » by **GSP** » Tue May 14, 2013 8:17 pm

therealbig3 wrote::rofl: @ Conley over D-Will.

The only thing Conley does better than D-Will is defend, and that's not nearly a large enough advantage when you consider that D-Will is a much better offensive player.

Dwill is absolute crap on defense tho. Hes prolly the worst defender out of every star player TBH cant think of someone whos worse. Hes much better offensively but conley is at worst average on offense 18/7 with <2topg 0.53ts against chris paul and thabo sefolosha is nice production. I dunno i came away from the bulls and nets series thinking brook lopez was their best player............