The Kevin Garnett thread: the most fascinating player on RGM

[richboy]

Saying KG was a HOF offensive player is pretty much irrelevant when we see that pretty much any decent offensive player is claiming HOF status. In terms of PFs in league history if KG was a offense only player were talking about a bunch of PFs potentially jumping him as potential HOFers.

Chris Bosh
Amare Stoudamire
Chris Webber
Zach Randolph
Pau Gasol

not to mention some young guys coming up like

Kevin Love
LeMarcus Aldridge
Blake Griffin

The only way i can see KG as a great offensive player is if I valued his assist more. The problem for me is he racked up easy assist in Minnesota playing that high post offense. Although a very good passer I do not consider KG in the league of some other bigs in terms of passing.

Matter of fact I would actually say that KG for most of his career is the classic over extended star player. That KG was a extremely high paid player with it saw himself in the middle of everything Minnesota did. But his lack of actually winning success was as much a product of him not being good enough to handle all those things. He was pretty much 1994 Scottie Pippen for much of his career in Minnesota. A overused second banana trying to be a first banana but destined to not be good enough. The numbers looked nice but they weren't going to lead to anything.

Even keeping it general, there's no way those guys are "jumping" over KG's offensive HOF credentials.

Garnett has 25,000+ points and 5000+ assists. No way any of the names on your list are approaching that. The only bigs to do it ever, if I'm not mistaken, are Kareem and Karl Malone

KG peaked leading the NBA in points scored. The other 9 names you listed combined to do that zero times.

KG was the leading scorer and usage leader on four straight top-6 offenses, and in two of those years he led the team in both scoring and assists. And for kicks, he did this with four different starting point guards. Without looking it up, MAYBE Webber might have come close to the scoring part of that in his Sac days but nowhere near the whole package.

KG peaked as both the #1 player in the NBA in ORAPM (completely non-boxscore impact) the same year that he was #2 in offensive win shares (completely boxscore). None of the names on your list are approaching that combo.

You listed some very good forwards, most of which are known primarily for offense. Lots of All Star and All NBA appearances in your list. But none of them are surpassing KG even on offense alone. Which, circling back, was my point in the first place: KG was extremely strong on offense...Hall-of-Fame worthy, in fact, on that side of the ball alone.

Like I said before. The only way you can make that statement is if you really value his assist. If you think like myself his assist are primary a product of him playing in a system that allowed him to accumulate assist those numbers are pretty much meaningless. In essence I'm saying KG the day he was out of the high post offense was more a 3-4 assist type of player. Which still makes him a better passer than the likes of Amare. But not nearly the guy that his numbers suggest.

One thing about me is i'm a skill guy. Could care less about stats accumulated in meaningless games. In all honesty if I took KG skill for skill I not coming to the conclusion he amazing offensively. He pretty much turnaround jumpers and 18 foot jumpers with good passing. I'm about the results at the biggest stage. Saying he a great offensive player is fine. However Minnesota kept getting knocked out of the playoffs in big part because of a very bad offense. An offense built around KG.

I'm confused, what centers has KG had problems playing against since he's actually been playing Center (which is what, 2 or 3 years?).

KG is a power forward, why should he have to guard Shaq? Argument makes little sense.

If your saying he a PF that can't guard centers that is fine. But the argument where in that you just jumped in too is that he an anchor. A anchor should be able to guard whoever he is asked to guard in the paint. Tim Duncan plays PF and had no problem sliding to defend Shaq.

Lets not forget. Young KG didn't even want to play PF. He was pushed to even move to that position. So like I said before. If your banking on KG being your anchor. Perhaps even being your center. It solely based on the idea your playing in a era that he could survive doing it. Because KG at center isn't working in the 90s. It works when your battling Chris Bosh for titles.

[NO-KG-AI]

Duncan couldn't guard Amare or Dirk. Does that mean he isn't an anchor?

KG did fine guarding centers for as long as I remember. There is this train of thought that a weaker player, Tyson Chandler is just amazing at guarding centers, but Garnett isn't. It's weird. No one could guard Shaq by themselves back in the day, how is that even an argument? That's like saying a guy can't be a great perimeter defender if he struggles against Mike or LeBron or something.

[tsherkin]

The idea that his APG dropped when he moved to center indicates a problem with his passing is odd and not logical. All it suggest is that fewer of his passes led directly to assists, which is to be expected from those spots.

You can impugn KG for weak scoring, but not for empty passing stats.

[RoyceDa59]

What I've always loved about KG the most is his well-rounded, versatile game. I can't imagine a scenario where he doesn't fit seamlessly into a roster and help them dramatically on both ends of the floor. KG to me is the absolute perfect 2nd-fiddle superstar, who compliments a high-volume guard/wing player perfectly. He would fit great next to prime Kobe, James, Shaq, Iverson, Kidd, Paul, Magic, Bird, Jordan... he's just a perfect compliment to nearly every player, system or roster.

[colts18]

Offensively, KG is basically Carlos Boozer impact wise. They have pretty similar games outside of KG's passing. They both rely on their jumpshots and are more physical than they look. But KG is like opposite of Boozer on defense I wonder if Boozer was an average defender, if he would be considered HOF worthy.

[The Explorer]

One of the most intense and versatile players in NBA history. I'm a big fan of intangibles, and although I've hated on KG in the past for his antics, I have to respect his passion and intensity. It has led to get very high up the all time list.

[Dr Pepper]

KG is great but his interior presence is what sells him short in the all time matchups vs other great bigs. He's no slouch but KG didn't have the moves especially one handed hook shots like some of his peers (for example David Robinson talked about how Duncan has almost unreal hands that made Duncan much better at driving and finishing with hooks than the Admiral), and imo KG relied too much on finesse and we see that in his playoff stats (TS%, FTA, points per shot). KG didn't have the bulk, strength, or moves to impose and manhandle his way like a prototypical 7 foot post player.

I disagree that there was a perception that Duncan struggles in the clutch

My statement wasn't opinion. That perception was out there, so if you don't remember that's just a gap in your memory. Not everyone believed of course, but since I'm someone who basically rolls my eyes at the idea that any of these stars are serious chokers, that goes without saying.

A quick Google led to this 2005 discussion on a Spurs' fan site:

Tim Choke Duncan Sequel

I was hoping for a more published source . In any case this was touched on earlier with the Simmons/Horry comparison between Duncan, Shaq, and Hakeem : the mid 00's Duncan was worn down physically and much more finesse oriented. Anyway Duncan is still a superior go-to option than KG, and had clutch moments before and after the mid 00's, however excuse me as I curse Derek Fisher once more. Not to mention that era was ruled by the Lakers and most fans thought that crop of stars was soft and weak compared to older era's anyway. Duncan has generally and consistently been someone who performs at another gear in the playoffs vs the regular season (not saying KG doesn't although his TS%, FTA, and Points per shot isn't exactly great stuff in the playoffs)

I think we can come together if you use a less specific word to describe what your preference is. Say, "demeanor". You prefer Duncan's demeanor over Garnett's. You think that the way Duncan goes about things, the calm mature professionalism, is more beneficial than Garnett's "Either you're with us or against us" fanaticism. That's a very reasonable opinion.

I'll put my opinion like this:

First and foremost, I'd much rather have a star with Duncan's demeanor than I would most other stars. Most other stars have egos and get petulant when things don't go there way.

Second, if I've got Popovich, then what I need really more than anything else is a locker room vibe that emphasizes just doing what Pop says. It wouldn't be a bad thing if Duncan was a little more vocal, but the team doesn't need that from him so it's fine.

There are situations though where you really want a true leader, and really we all know what that means. A guy like Tim Duncan doesn't become president, or CEO, or lead a religious movement. Duncan is not a charasmatic, and there are situations everywhere where there's no substitute for a charasmatic. Garnett IS a charasmatic.

Remember these quotes from his teammate. Can you even imagine Duncan even trying to have this kind of direct impact on his teammates' psyche?

I prefer Duncan for his actions and not so much his demeanor, although I do think KG's trashtalking backfires too. Duncan takes less money, makes big shots, trains players in the offseason, is a 4 year college grad, works on his body and game, and is less trouble overall.

KG does a lot of that too but when it comes to your scenario about KG's charisma crossing over into other areas like business leadership, I think KG would have a tougher time because he is far less articulate and arguably doesn't have the education or professionalism to make it worthwhile. And I think charisma is the wrong word choice for KG's animated style which is usually reserved for on the court action. Off the court KG wants to keep to himself (Shaq helped with this during his time as a C) and I think we can point to KG changing high schools after his lynching allegations as to why he is wary of the world and rightfully so. However I do not think KG's personality would crossover better and it would likely clash instead of rise.

As for Duncan's leadership, it is disingenuous to underrate his leadership impact. I suggest reading Bill Simmons "Book of Basketball", who is both a Duncan/KG and Celtics fan. Throughout the book Simmons brings up examples of Duncan's leadership and impact on his teammates; Duncan is talking, hugging, laughing, and getting into the face of his teammates during, before, and after the games. Robert Horry described the Spurs as the most family-like organization he's been in the NBA. However most of us here don't have courtside or media access (and those who do with the Spurs are not much better off) so we don't see shootarounds or Duncan's leadership in action as much as KG's fist pumps, and the only time the cameras focus on Duncan is to see him whine about a call.

I pointed to examples of Duncan's leadership in a previous post where he got the young Kawhi into the game and the awesome GIF of a Duncan huddle. We can also look at quotes from non-teammates like Ron Artest that called Duncan a "true gangster" in the mid 00's (lol) and recently tweeted he was still the best big in the league, or we can look at Duncan training guys like Roy Hibbert in the offseason. That's not to say KG isn't outstanding or doesn't have an impact, just saying you're way off base here with Duncan's own intangibles and actions imo. Here is that GIF for effect once more :

[richboy]

The idea that his APG dropped when he moved to center indicates a problem with his passing is odd and not logical. All it suggest is that fewer of his passes led directly to assists, which is to be expected from those spots.

You can impugn KG for weak scoring, but not for empty passing stats.

Yes I can. Let me ask you. Brad Miller was a good passing center. He goes to the Kings and starts averaging nearly 5 apg. Didn't do it before. Didn't do it after. He was a good passer but the Sacramento system helped a lot in him racking up assist. That is my issue with KG. It isn't his position. It that he stood on the high post and racked up some easy assist. KG is a good passer. But his assist numbers suggest he isn't far from Larry Bird level. Sorry Hell No. That he comparable to Chris Webber as a passer. Sorry I'm just not buying into that. That he is far superior to Pau Gasol. Just blows away Tim Duncan. Please if Tim Duncan played in that high post offense he could get 5-6 apg as well. IMO he a good passer that played in a system that allowed him to rack up great assist numbers for a PF.

[NO-KG-AI]

Well, no big man has really been able to produce KG's amount of assists/turnovers over the years. Either he was in the most unique system of all time, or he's doing something no one else is capable of doing.

[Dr Pepper]

The idea that his APG dropped when he moved to center indicates a problem with his passing is odd and not logical. All it suggest is that fewer of his passes led directly to assists, which is to be expected from those spots.

You can impugn KG for weak scoring, but not for empty passing stats.

Yes I can. Let me ask you. Brad Miller was a good passing center. He goes to the Kings and starts averaging nearly 5 apg. Didn't do it before. Didn't do it after. He was a good passer but the Sacramento system helped a lot in him racking up assist. That is my issue with KG. It isn't his position. It that he stood on the high post and racked up some easy assist. KG is a good passer. But his assist numbers suggest he isn't far from Larry Bird level. Sorry Hell No. That he comparable to Chris Webber as a passer. Sorry I'm just not buying into that. That he is far superior to Pau Gasol. Just blows away Tim Duncan. Please if Tim Duncan played in that high post offense he could get 5-6 apg as well. IMO he a good passer that played in a system that allowed him to rack up great assist numbers for a PF.

In any case Duncan did average 5+ Assists for a championship run in 2003, leading his team in that category as well

[Texas Chuck]

Well, no big man has really been able to produce KG's amount of assists/turnovers over the years. Either he was in the most unique system of all time, or he's doing something no one else is capable of doing.

Seems like its the right mix of both, no? Obviously he needs the ability that allowed Minny to run top 10 offenses through him in the first place which eliminates the vast majority of PFs. Next he needs a coach willing to use his best scorer in a distributing role. KG is also one of the most unselfish superstars ever, which I think at times was to the Wolves' detriment--in much the same way Lebron's unselfishness used to be before he found the right mix of making the correct play and when he needs to just go on his own.

Despite the big numbers I dont think of KG first when I think of the best passing big men, so maybe just like Stockton's numbers dont mean he's the best playmaking pg ever despite the enormous gulf between him and the next guy, maybe KG's numbers aren't evidence that no other big was capable of what he did if given the role he had in Minny?

[tsherkin]

It is true that assists alone do not describe much beyond opportunity to pass to the finisher,which can be systemic. KG's vision was clear, of course, though it is true that the high post affords more opportunities to hit the shooter than the low post, in deference to richboy's earlier comment.

[NO-KG-AI]

Well, no big man has really been able to produce KG's amount of assists/turnovers over the years. Either he was in the most unique system of all time, or he's doing something no one else is capable of doing.

Seems like its the right mix of both, no? Obviously he needs the ability that allowed Minny to run top 10 offenses through him in the first place which eliminates the vast majority of PFs. Next he needs a coach willing to use his best scorer in a distributing role. KG is also one of the most unselfish superstars ever, which I think at times was to the Wolves' detriment--in much the same way Lebron's unselfishness used to be before he found the right mix of making the correct play and when he needs to just go on his own.

Despite the big numbers I dont think of KG first when I think of the best passing big men, so maybe just like Stockton's numbers dont mean he's the best playmaking pg ever despite the enormous gulf between him and the next guy, maybe KG's numbers aren't evidence that no other big was capable of what he did if given the role he had in Minny?

Possible, but unlike Stockton, KG didn't have an all time great offensive finisher to pass to, and didn't have a coach with a system that produced a massive amounts of assists with or without him.

His numbers don't necessarily make him number 1, but there is a clear separation from KG to guys who aren't even approaching the numbers, regardless of scheme.

[ardee]

Offensively, KG is basically Carlos Boozer impact wise. They have pretty similar games outside of KG's passing. They both rely on their jumpshots and are more physical than they look. But KG is like opposite of Boozer on defense I wonder if Boozer was an average defender, if he would be considered HOF worthy.

Was Boozer a passer on the level of Bird, Pippen and LeBron?

[tsherkin]

KG is not equivalent to Bird or Lebron as a playmaker.

[richboy]

Well, no big man has really been able to produce KG's amount of assists/turnovers over the years. Either he was in the most unique system of all time, or he's doing something no one else is capable of doing.

Or he was just overused. Every thing you do should come with the attitude that will it lead to winning a title. The game isn't about stat stuffing. Duncan's numbers are championship numbers. It is about are you producing at a way that leads to winning. So Minnesota is running there offense threw KG. He is putting up stats but its not an amazing offense. They aren't winning titles. The reality is if I want a championship level offense I need more talent and take the ball of KGs hands some.

Let me say this. Someone said you don't need that much more to win with KG. Lets not forget the reality of history. KG's one title comes when he left the West to go dominate a very weak East. That Juggernaut known as the Cleveland Cavaliers were the Eastern Conference champs from the year before. In this run the Celtics go 7 games with the powerful Atlanta Hawks. Then in the next series are a PJ Brown jump shot away from getting knocked out by the 45 win Cleveland Cavaliers. They take out the old Pistons and then beat the Lakers in 6 games. As Paul Pierce lit up Luke Walton in the finals. Without Bynum.

This was not the kind of competition that KG was facing most of his career. Matter of fact he had teams in Minnesota that might have been able to beat these squads. It was the stacked depth of the West that KG was trying to conquer. It was the Spurs. It was the Mavericks. It was Kobe and Shaq. The idea that he could have taken old version Paul Pierce or Ray Allen and dominate Kobe and Shaq or the Spurs is crazy. He would have needed a prime Paul Pierce or Ray Allen to be consistently championship level during that era.

[ardee]

KG is not equivalent to Bird or Lebron as a playmaker.

Agreed, that was hyperbole.... I just meant he's among the few best playmaking forwards in history.

[NO-KG-AI]

KG was leading some better team offenses than Duncan with less talent. I dunno what you are getting at.

[richboy]

KG was leading some better team offenses than Duncan with less talent. I dunno what you are getting at.

I'm getting to the fact that KG teams were not good offensively in the playoffs. His one trip to the WCF they were a horrible offensive team for the entire run. All the first round exits they might have been good offensively in 1 perhaps 2 series.

[Dipper 13]

Well, no big man has really been able to produce KG's amount of assists/turnovers over the years. Either he was in the most unique system of all time, or he's doing something no one else is capable of doing.

Chances are Wilt also did it in '64, '66, '67, '68. In all the available video footage he is a low turnover player, and in using ElGee's "created opportunities" method, he had more than double the number of created shots (54) vs. assists (26). He had even fewer turnovers (14).



viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1247724

Shots Created: 54

*Not all assists are necessarily counted as shots created, and vice versa.

Total Fouls Called: 5
Outside Paint- 30
In Paint - 19 (At Rim) - 15



Adjusted for 2012-13 pace (92.0), this is what Wilt averaged in the games specified in thread above:

17.3 pts, 16.8 rbs, 4.2 ast, 3.6 blk, 2.3 tov, 63.4 FG%, 39.5% FT, 59.5 TS%

Spoiler:

All those baseline handoffs we have seen from Wilt in the highlights must surely count as shots created, seeing as he is not only assisting them to score with the pass, but also freeing them with the screen. Clearly he was still very valuable to the Lakers offense even as he aged, due to his passing and screening.



For instance the first three video clips count as opp. created, whereas the 4th one does not.


Wilt & West force Russell into his 5th foul early in the quarter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu5vMfPtbw&t=2m33s



This was all made possible by Sam Jones sagging back on Wilt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu5vMfPtbw&t=9m25s

Slow Motion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu5vMfPtbw&t=10m29s



Again he catches Jones sagging back

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K9RJXAdZYw&t=5m1s



This video clip does not count as an opp. created since it was more of a defensive error & very late switch. Though it does count as an assist, even in that era.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiVAFBZzTac&t=2m8s

The posters here need to realize that he was more than just a scorer during his prime (1964-1968), but rather an all around player like KG or LeBron. Even Bill Russell had recently said LeBron reminds him of Wilt. KAJ also said the same a few years ago. Wilt was a huge Barkley fan due to his rebounding and his dominance in the all around game. And LeBron has a better offensive game than Charles from 10-15 feet out, and is flat out better defensively at almost everything. I'm sure if he was around today there would be no bigger LeBron fan than him.





http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nb ... t/2136567/

James is one of 12 NBA players to win more than one MVP, and at 28, he became the fifth to win four MVPs, joining Abdul-Jabbar (six), Russell (five), Michael Jordan (five) and Wilt Chamberlain (four). James also is the second player to win four MVPs in five seasons. Russell is the other.

"What I think about him is what I used to think about Wilt," Russell said after a morning round of golf, "and like I told Wilt one time, 'I think I'm the only guy on the planet who really knows how good you are because I've seen you up close.' I know what I'm watching, and LeBron is doing a great job being LeBron James."