GOAT SF

[JordansBulls]

You are misunderstanding the premise. Durant playing with Westbrook isn't a big deal because Westbrook had not won as the MAN, nor was he the established star on the team. No one is knocking Lebron for playing with a star, there is a difference in playing with a Melo, Deron, etc and then playing with a Wade (who won a title as the MAN). That is totally different.

No, I completely get the premise. My question is why does that matter and why set that arbitrary standard? So by your admission playing with a star is okay and you don't hold that against him.

KD can play with Russ because Russ has "not won as the MAN, nor was he the established star on the team". But LeBron can't play with Wade because he won the FMVP in 2006? But LeBron can also play with Melo or Deron or any other star that hasn't won as the MAN.

Again, these are pretty arbitrary standards. We both know only teams with multiple stars usually win the championships and you seem to agree with that but that star can not have won prior to playing with you as the MAN? What?

I think you are misunderstanding my premise. LeBron was the undisputed best player or the MAN on the team for the 2 championship runs so why does it matter that his star had been the MAN once upon a time?

Because anyone can win once they join forces with someone who won as the man already and who is in there prime as well. That is the point. Westbrook has not won before. The same would be had Durant decided to play with Wade instead of Lebron, he would get the same treatment.

[PaulieWal]

Because anyone can win once they join forces with someone who won as the man already and who is in there prime as well. That is the point. Westbrook has not won before. The same would be had Durant decided to play with Wade instead of Lebron, he would get the same treatment.

RW is entering his prime now as well and so is KD. I get it. The point it is just another arbitrary standard for LeBron.

If anything someone like KD is going to play most of his prime with RW who is entering his prime as well. On the other hand, Wade was already in the middle of the prime and really was Wade a (top 5 player) only for one season. For 2012-2013, Wade has been injured both seasons.

Some people on this board have absurd logic. Brenice argues that role players have always hit big shots but for LeBron it's "different" because his role player's shot was "mandatory". You say it's okay to play with other stars but not if the star won previously because it becomes very easy. What kind of logic is that?

Why is the same logic not applied to other all-time duos and trios? Was it easy for Shaq-Kobe or Jordan-Pippen or Magic-Kareem-Worthy or Bird-McHale-Parish to win?

As battered as the East was in 2013 there has been nothing easy for Miami last two rings with star players missing 9 games in 2012 (Bosh) and Wade being injured in 2012 and 2013, and sub-par play from Bosh in 2013. To me it actually makes LeBron's two rings more impressive.

The reality is that we still haven't seen the team play at its peak in playoffs. Maybe this will be the year if everyone stays healthy and then LeBron can actually have an "easy" championship.

[Mr MoJo Risin]

Lebron went to a team that was stacked. I think it was pretty conceivable that they were going to win a few rings with the talent that they have. Bird resurrected the Celtics in his rookie season, then led them to a ring the next year. Naturally they accumulated more talent as the years went by, but they face some extremely talented teams to win other rings.

I honestly think you can insert Durant or Carmelo over Lebron on the Heat, and they would win a ring. Those Heat teams are stacked imo.

[Brenice]

The difference I can see is that Bird didn't elect to go play with someone in there prime who already won as the man, which is what Lebron did in playing with Wade and going to his city to play. So in that sense it does matter a bit.

Bird and the Celtics also had a rival team during its own dynasty era in the Showtime Lakers featuring the GOAT PG. LeBron and the Heat compete with who?

Do you have the same views regarding MJ's titles? Him and the Bulls didn't have an equal to compete against either.

That's true but this is not about Jordan. HOWEVER, Jordan was always the best player and his Bulls NEVER lost with home court advantage.

[PaulieWal]

Lebron went to a team that was stacked. I think it was pretty conceivable that they were going to win a few rings with the talent that they have. Bird resurrected the Celtics in his rookie season, then led them to a ring the next year. Naturally they accumulated more talent as the years went by, but they face some extremely talented teams to win other rings.

I honestly think you can insert Durant or Carmelo over Lebron on the Heat, and they would win a ring. Those Heat teams are stacked imo.

Do you always troll like this?

The Heat didn't become a complete team until 2012 when they strengthened their bench a little. In 2011, they were a 3 man team and we all saw how 3-4 man teams do like with the Lakers last year. When you have no bench, no matter how strong your starting 5 is, you are not going to be that strong.

There is no way Durant or Carmelo could be substituted for LeBron and Miami would win. If you really think that then you need to learn more about the game.

In 2012, with Bosh out and Wade hobbled LeBron completely took over the playmaking and got Wade going. Carmelo and Durant (especially in 2012) were not even close as playmakers to LeBron.

In 2013, with Wade hobbled even more than last year and Bosh disappearing completely, Melo would have lost in the ECF to the Pacers. LeBron was a beast in the ECF.

Durant is the only one with whom I can think the Heat might have a chance in 2013 and this is 2013 ridiculous (playing at the wrong time with 2013 LeBron) who could maybe lead the Heat to a title. Even with Durant I wouldn't be so sure because I am not sure like LeBron he can guard West in the 4th quarters and TP but with KD they would have a chance.

In 2012, both Melo and KD would have lost to Indiana with no Bosh and Wade hobbled.

[Brenice]

Lebron went to a team that was stacked. I think it was pretty conceivable that they were going to win a few rings with the talent that they have. Bird resurrected the Celtics in his rookie season, then led them to a ring the next year. Naturally they accumulated more talent as the years went by, but they face some extremely talented teams to win other rings.

I honestly think you can insert Durant or Carmelo over Lebron on the Heat, and they would win a ring. Those Heat teams are stacked imo.

3 U.S. olympians in their prime is definitely stacked. They knew it, that's why they predicted all those rings. Only people saying otherwise is Heat fans. No other team in history had 3 olympians under 30.

[MisterHibachi]

I honestly think you can insert Durant or Carmelo over Lebron on the Heat, and they would win a ring. Those Heat teams are stacked imo.

LOL.

There was nothing easy about the last two Heat titles. You can't say that 'anyone can win in this position because the Heat are so stacked' but then on the Bulls vs. Heat thread on GB there are people saying that the Heat were vulnerable this last year. You can't have it both ways.

Winning is never easy. Unless you're the Dream Team lol. Winning in the NBA is never easy.

[Brenice]

Because anyone can win once they join forces with someone who won as the man already and who is in there prime as well. That is the point. Westbrook has not won before. The same would be had Durant decided to play with Wade instead of Lebron, he would get the same treatment.

Some people on this board have absurd logic. Brenice argues that role players have always hit big shots but for LeBron it's "different" because his role player's shot was "mandatory". You say it's okay to play with other stars but not if the star won previously because it becomes very easy. What kind of logic is that?
.

If you gonna bring me up, be man enough to quote me accurately.

What I said was that Ray Allen saved LeBron's ass because the Heat was losing the series BECAUSE LEBRON WAS SCARED TO SHOOT WIDE OPEN JUMPSHOTS AND WAS NOT MAKING THE BEST BASKETBALL PLAY BY PASSING FOR A LOWER PERCENTAGE 3PT SHOT. That is no where near the same as Jordan drawing a double team and passing the ball to an open role player. The Bulls were never losing any series BECAUSE OF JORDAN.

GET YOUR STORY RIGHT IF YOU GONNA CALL PEOPLE OUT.

[PaulieWal]

Because anyone can win once they join forces with someone who won as the man already and who is in there prime as well. That is the point. Westbrook has not won before. The same would be had Durant decided to play with Wade instead of Lebron, he would get the same treatment.

Some people on this board have absurd logic. Brenice argues that role players have always hit big shots but for LeBron it's "different" because his role player's shot was "mandatory". You say it's okay to play with other stars but not if the star won previously because it becomes very easy. What kind of logic is that?
.

If you gonna bring me up, be man enough to quote me accurately.

What I said was that Ray Allen saved LeBron's ass because the Heat was losing the series BECAUSE LEBRON WAS SCARED TO SHOOT WIDE OPEN JUMPSHOTS AND WAS NOT MAKING THE BEST BASKETBALL PLAY BY PASSING FOR A LOWER PERCENTAGE 3PT SHOT. That is no where near the same as Jordan drawing a double team and passing the ball to an open role player. The Bulls were never losing any series BECAUSE OF JORDAN.

GET YOUR STORY RIGHT IF YOU GONNA CALL PEOPLE OUT.

Well games 3&5 are the problems cause for real San Antonio had the series won and blew it. Sure role players make plays, but Ray's shot was mandatory because of 3&5. If LeBron played like he is certainly capable, 3&5 would have been Miami wins. Certainly you are not advocating LeBron playing a final series that includes a 3&5 this year and his team down 3-2 by 2 scores with only 10 seconds left and the opponent on the line. I don't advise it. Hopefully LeBron realizes it, even if his fans don't.

This way my reply to you then and I do have my story right before making a point. You should maybe calm down, relax, read and remember your own posts before you go around questioning whether or not other posters are "men".

Well games 3&5 are the problems cause for real San Antonio had the series won and blew it. Sure role players make plays, but Ray's shot was mandatory because of 3&5. If LeBron played like he is certainly capable, 3&5 would have been Miami wins. Certainly you are not advocating LeBron playing a final series that includes a 3&5 this year and his team down 3-2 by 2 scores with only 10 seconds left and the opponent on the line. I don't advise it. Hopefully LeBron realizes it, even if his fans don't.

Hahahaha...man I am actually laughing as I am replying to your response here. So now we are down to penalizing LeBron because his role player's shot was "mandatory" but for other stars it wasn't? Right? That's your whole argument now. Role players have always hit big shots but for LeBron it is different because it was "mandatory".

It's not enough to admit rationally that LeBron sucked in games 3 & 5 but we should penalize him for winning the series in 7 because he wasn't good in 3 &5.

I don't think anyone rooting for Heat or LeBron is advocating that it was an ideal situation but that's sports. Many other teams have struggled throughout their championship runs but I don't see anyone saying well they didn't win convincingly enough or if this hypothetical didn't happen or that hypothetical didn't happen they would have lost. You can talk about those points in the aftermath of the game but overall, I would give the team or player his due.

Oh, well man. I come here to talk hoops with rational fans. Your biases are clear and pretty funny.

It's funny that LeBron doesn't just have to win, he has to win in specific restrictive manners or LeBron might not as well win because, well, he didn't win the way you want him to. I am not sure any other player in NBA history has that kind of burden placed on him. You can win but only in the way I think it's acceptable otherwise your winning comes with an asterisk.

[Brenice]

Stop playing yourself. LeBron is being penalized for being scared to shoot when left WIDE open, which caused Miami to be down 3-2, making Ray's shot mandatory. I don't expect you to understand.

[PaulieWal]

Stop playing yourself. LeBron is being penalized for being scared to shoot when left WIDE open, which caused Miami to be down 3-2, making Ray's shot mandatory. I don't expect you to understand.

I just showed you what you said verbatim about his role player's shot being "mandatory" but for other stay players it's okay because it wasn't. I hope you are man enough to accept that you were wrong and that I quoted you accurately.

Whatever man, we have had this conversation back and forth and other have chimed in shredding your arguments apart. You can continue to penalize LeBron for hypothetical scenarios and what ifs when the reality is that he won the FMVP and Miami won the 2013 title. If you are that biased, no point in having this discussion.

[Brenice]

Reading comprehension is not your strength. Denial is. I would not have said anything if you had kept my name out your mouth or got what I said accurately. Now, I understand your intelligience and banish you to where you belong with a dunce hat.

[PaulieWal]

Reading comprehension is not your strength. Denial is. I would not have said anything if you had kept my name out your mouth or got what I said accurately. Now, I understand your intelligience and banish you to where you belong with a dunce hat.

I did not know the great "Brenice" was a legend whose name could be spoken.

From the looks of your post, you sound very mad. Relax, it's only a game and there's nothing wrong in admitting that you are biased and nonobjective.

PS. If you are now going to attack my intelligence, at least learn how to spell it correctly (oh, the irony).

[rrravenred]

This thread can go one of two ways:

1) people can return to debating the topic with dignity and respect for other posters; or

2) I can lock the thread and start handing out 12-hours

Should I add a voting button?