New Franchise: Kevin Garnett vs Moses Malone

[mojay641]

then kobe came back and won 2 more championships including one over KG's celtics.

[Jonny Blaze]

I haven't seen anyone make the KG case yet, but I don't really even know what that case would be. Just on the surface...

Moses Malone - 1 ring, 1 Finals MVP, 3 time league MVP, 14 All-Star appearances (2 ABA), 8 1st or 2nd team All-NBA selections, 2 All-Defensive team selections

Career high in PPG and RPG - 31.1 and 17.6

9 season stretch of averaging between 22.7 and 31.1 PPG, and 11.3 and 17.6 RPG

Kevin Garnett - 1 ring, 1 league MVP, 15 All-Star appearances, 7 1st or 2nd team All-NBA selections, 12 All-Defensive team selections, 1 Defensive Player of the Year

Career high in PPG and RPG - 24.2 and 13.9

9 season stretch of averaging between 20.8 and 24.2 PPG, and 10.4 and 13.9 RPG

I'm not saying that's the entire story but what can a KG defender even lean on beyond defensive abilities and KG's passing chops? Moses clearly was on a higher level as both a scorer and rebounder. Moses won 3 MVPs to KG's 1 over clearly superior competition for Moses so obviously he was seen as being the better player in his day than KG was too.

Same here.

I haven't heard a single good argument from any KG fan on why Garnett should be ranked above Moses.

Some of the arguments are so bad its comical.

[Jonny Blaze]

I'm surprised no one's really mentioned this point: Garnett beats Moses in longevity.

People assume Moses had great longevity because he played for a long time, but his time as an elite player was short. Garnett remained an elite defensive anchor into his mid to late 30's.

What's crazy is that he's even rated highly in 1997's RAPM (11th) and 1998's RAPM (5th.) And I'm pretty sure he was highly rated last season too. That's an insane streak of consistently high advanced +/- numbers. That does mean something. It's not a fluke.

There is a reason why no one else has mentioned this point.

There is literally nothing true about this post at all.

Garnett's last year as an elite player is 2008. His prime starts in 1999-2000. A period of 9 seasons.

Moses is an elite player from 1977-78 until 1988-89.
In between those 11 years he puts up numerous seasons and accomplishments that Kevin Garnett could only dream of having, including winning 3 MVPS, taking two different teams to the NBA Finals and winning an NBA FINALS MVP.

If you compare their title.

1983 76ers
12-1. 30 years later still considered one of the most dominant post season runs ever.
Defeats Lakers in NBA Finals 4-0
NBA Finals MVP: Moses Malone
Malone Playoff averages 26 ppg, 15.8 rebounds on 53% shooting

2008 Celtics
16-10 playoff record. The worst playoff record for any NBA champion in league history
Defeats Lakers in NBA Finals 4-2
NBA Finals MVP: Kevin Garnett.....oops my bad, Paul Pierce.
Kevin Garnett playoff averages 20 ppg, 10.5 rebounds, 3.3 assist on 49% shooting


I always say this in every debate where Kevin Garnett defenders argue passionately that he is as good or better then players that are clearly better then him.

BRING UP THE PLAYOFFS.

I haven't seen a single KG fan mention the playoffs.....and I now know why.

I didn't even know what Moses Malone playoff stats were. I just now looked up Moses Malone's playoff stats....and big surprise.....they blow KG's stats out of the water

[Jonny Blaze]

Lets compare the two seasons that Kevin Garnett and Moses Malone led their teams to the NBA Finals.

Kevin Garnett
Boston
2007-2008
20 ppg, 10.5 rebounds, 3.3 assists on 49% shootings.

2009-10
15.4 ppg, 7.4 rebounds, 2.5 assists on 49% shootings

Moses Malone
Houston
1980-81
26.8 ppg, 14.5 rebounds on 47% shooting

Philadelphia
1982-93
26 ppg, 15.8 rebounds on 53% shooting.

C'mon guys......I understand having love for your favorite player.....but only a massive homer (and I mean MASSIVE) would look at that and still try to argue for Garnett.


If Im a KG fan this is something that would scare me to death.

In sports comparison there is a huge thing call the law of recent. Meaning that people are likely to rate current players higher then players that played in the past they have never seen.

10 years after KG retires the future crop of NBA fans will have never seen Garnett play, or won't remember his prime.
People are going to continually drop him on all time lists because his stats are largely pedestrian.

[Brenice]

I'm going with Moses. Moses dominated. It would be up to the defender to not let him gain position inside to put up those numbers. They couldn't. KG would need protection like Kareem needed in '83. Kareem didn't have a Kendrick Perkins to stand up to the bullying Moses so Kareem could provide weakside help, ala KG.

Moses was a dominator. KG is a helper.

[Rust In Peace]

If Moses and KG were on the same team, Garnett would be the sidekick methinks. Hence, why I side with Moses in this debate.

[G35]

You're right, they had home court advantage. I forgot about it, after watching Kobe blow a 24 point lead on his home court and lose by 6.

You know what I notice?

You keep bringing up Kobe.

Like Kobe is the litmus test for everything questioned about KG.

I didn't know that Kobe played the Celtics by himself that year. In fact whenever Kobe has won anything it's repeatedly brought up how much HELP Kobe needs to win. Shaq, Pau, Lamar, Fisher, Artest, all of these names have saved Kobe from being a failure.

But KG? Nah that dude did it all by himself......

Just saying, if Josh Smith was so good at leading his team against the Celtics, and KG and the Celtics were such a weak champion because of that, they shouldn't have steamrolled Kobe's team, who were playing amazing basketball and firing on all cylinders prior to that.

Oh that transitive property argument. Josh Smith and "only" LeBron were able to push the Celtics to 7, so you'd have to admit that Kobe was a lesser player than them. Context doesn't matter, "why are you punishing them for winning???!?!?! I don't get this site!"

Because it took them 7 games to beat a 37 win Atlanta team whose SRS was NEGATIVE 2.23! That's nothing to boast about.

It took them 7 games to beat 45 win Cavaliers team whose SRS was NEGATIVE .053, that is also nothing to brag about.

Those Celtics were not dominant at all and that's because their best all around player was not that dominant.

Those Sixers swept a 45 win Knicks team, went 4-1 vs a 51 win Bucks team, and swept a 58 win Lakers team. That was anchored by Moses.

[This] fallacy involves countering a charge with a charge, rather than addressing the issue being raised, with the intention of diverting attention away from the original argument

[ShaqAttack3234]

Moses was dominant and the best player in the league in '82 and '83, and of course won the '83 title leading one of the best teams in recent history, but for a new franchise, it gets kind of tough because that '83 Sixer team wasn't actually built around Moses. They had won 59, 62 and 58 games the previous years while losing to the Lakers in 6 in both the '80 and '82 finals and lost to the champion Celtics in 7 during the '81 ECF. So he joined a really good team. Dr. J, Toney, Mo Cheeks and Bobby Jones were already there so he was essentially replacing Caldwell Jones on a team that was already championship-caliber with Jones.

Then if you look at the talent he had around him, Dr. J, Toney and Cheeks all made the all-star team in '83, and Bobby Jones went to the bench, but he had been an all-star in '82 as a starter and was voted 6th man of the year in '83. Jones and Cheeks were also all-defensive 1st team and Dr. J was still all-nba 1st team in '83 and 5th in MVP voting having finished 3rd the previous year behind only Moses and Bird in a year that he also led Philly to game 6 of the finals as the man.

Not to take anything away from Malone's dominant '83 run when he was the best in the game and no doubt elevated an already very good team to all-time great status, but it's important to keep in mind the team that was already in place when he joined.

In Garnett's case, he was hurt by an incompetent organization, and simply didn't have the teams to compete with the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, the twin tower Spurs, the stacked Blazers and the big 3 Mavs.

The one year KG had a chance to contend was 2004 and he won 58 games to get the best record in the West and got to game 6 of the WCF against the Lakers. His cast still wasn't an incredible, though. He had Cassell who had an excellent year and made all-nba 2nd team, and Sprewell could still shoot, had the nice mid-range game, brought energy, was a pretty capable scorer off the dribble and a good defender, but he was also a bit past his prime at 33 years old. But after those two guys, the Wolves had very little talent. Trenton Hassell was a starter and there solely for defense since he was an offensive liability and Fred Hoiberg was exclusively a 3 point shooter. One look at the big men who played alongside KG paints a pretty ugly picture since they consisted of Michael Olowokandi, Mark Madsen and a 36 year old Ervin Johnson. Wally Sczerbiak only played 28 games that year so much of KG's success came without him.

KG also may have won a title or at least gotten to the finals had Cassell not gotten injured. Once Cassell went down, KG had to do a ridiculous amount. Take any contender's 2nd best player away and in almost every case, they won't win a title, much less a team as top-heavy as the '04 Wolves. Impressively, KG won a title the second chance he got in '08, and not only was he option 1.A or 1.B offensively with Pierce, but there's no question he had a ton to do with Boston being one of the great defenses of all-time. Unfortunately, that was the last we got to see of a near-prime KG on a contender due to his injury in '09 and the fact that KG was getting deeper into his 30's, but Boston remained contenders into 2012 when KG nearly led them back to another finals despite being 36. If not for KG's injury in '09, I don't think a 3peat would have been unlikely at all.

Anyway, it's close, and Moses gives you a more dominant scorer as well as a tougher player with more of a physical presence, but KG gives you the all around game, an all-time great defender and unselfishness as well as great passing ability. Moses was never a great defender and he appeared to not only be a subpar passer, but an extremely reluctant one. He seemed much more deserving of the black hole nickname than McHale for example since it seemed to be a regular occurrence for him to get doubled and instead of passing, go to a drop step or power move and force up a shot.

It's close because KG's biggest criticism was that he could be soft offensively and seemed to lack the assertiveness and willingness to take over, but this didn't seem to be a problem in '03 and '04 as far as I saw. In those particular years, KG seemed to be more aggressive and dominant than ever before. At the same time, Moses was the best player in the league in both '82 and '83 over a slightly past-prime Kareem, late prime/slightly past-prime Dr. J and young, pre-prime Bird and Magic so a lot of really good players for Moses to stand out above.

I'm leaning towards KG and one of the reasons is that as good as prime '79-'83, or '79-'85 Moses was, KG's prime was probably comparable, and I think he gives me a longer window to contend considering both their near-prime years and KG's effectiveness on contending Boston teams at the end of his career.

[drza]

I always say this in every debate where Kevin Garnett defenders argue passionately that he is as good or better then players that are clearly better then him.

BRING UP THE PLAYOFFS.

The argument is circular, whether it's the regular season or the playoffs. You and your crew will hold up boxscore stats, often scoring, and scream that these are the most important things. We'll point out that there are aspects of the game, especially on defense but including offensive creation and distribution, that aren't measured well (or at all, in some cases) by the boxscores and that the best current measures for entire games are the +/- stats. Your side disregards the +/- stats or even the approach that would value what those stats could tell us. Which leaves us in a debate with no common ground, and in which all either side can do is spit a bunch of words at each other. I don't have the patience or time to try to win arguments that way anymore. THAT'S why you haven't seen me very much in this or other topics recently, not because of some fear of speaking about the playoffs. I actually love talking about KG's playoffs, because they're still so under-appreciated or misunderstood by so many.

KG's been a monster in the playoffs over his career. Whether his team was going out in the first round or winning the championship, no player in this generation has done more to carry his team further in the playoffs than KG has. He's done it in a variety of ways too...depending on the situation he's been a dominant scorer, team defender, passer, rebounder, 1-on-1 defender...but he's consistently been a monster.

The default these days is to look to raw points or shooting efficiency to make judgments, and that's fine. But you mention how the future will judge...with the advances in measuring and appreciating other ways of evaluating the game, KG is likely to be the player from this generation that makes the biggest historical leap 10 years from now. I'm heading for the Sloan Conference in Massachussets next month, where the statistical revolution in sports is epitomized and the NBA front office types that are leading that revolution are treated like rock stars. Basketball-reference is adding more and more play-by-play and +/- results to their website, including the postseason.

Bottom line: KG's postseason performance will continue to look better and better as folks get more educated in all the different ways that one can have an impact, and in the different ways of measuring that impact.

[Jonny Blaze]

The one year KG had a chance to contend was 2004 and he won 58 games to get the best record in the West and got to game 6 of the WCF against the Lakers

If I am only going to have one year where I get a chance to contend for the title.....then Im not going to want to build my franchise around that player.

ake any contender's 2nd best player away and in almost every case, they won't win a title, much less a team as top-heavy as the '04 Wolves

This is correct. But the 2011 Mavericks say hello. Lost Caron Butler mid season.

In Garnett's case, he was hurt by an incompetent organization, and simply didn't have the teams to compete with the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, the twin tower Spurs, the stacked Blazers and the big 3 Mavs.

Those teams were better then the Timberwolves because they were led my more dominant Superstar players.
Chauncey Billips, Wally Szerbiack, Sam Cassell, Latrell Sprewell, Tom Gugliotta, Stephon Marbury and Terrell Brandon are all comparable players to the sidekicks that those other teams had.

It's close because KG's biggest criticism was that he could be soft offensively and seemed to lack the assertiveness and willingness to take over, but this didn't seem to be a problem in '03 and '04 as far as I saw.

Sure....but now we are measuring superstars on 2 year peaks?

What about the other 10-12 years of his prime? Kevin Garnett is only an elite playoff performer for three seasons (2002-2004) maybe 4 if you add in 2008.

This thread has gone 130 posts and I still haven't seen any credible argument for KG over Moses Malone. Every argument that is brought by KG fans is based on hypothetical situations which never happened.

Why has no KG fans compared their playoff resumes?

Malone is clearly a superior player.

[Jonny Blaze]

I always say this in every debate where Kevin Garnett defenders argue passionately that he is as good or better then players that are clearly better then him.

BRING UP THE PLAYOFFS.

KG's been a monster in the playoffs over his career. Whether his team was going out in the first round or winning the championship, no player in this generation has done more to carry his team further in the playoffs than KG has. He's done it in a variety of ways too...depending on the situation he's been a dominant scorer, team defender, passer, rebounder, 1-on-1 defender...but he's consistently been a monster.

This is honestly the funniest thing I have ever read on this site.

Im done.

I can't believe you typed that with a straight face.


The player who only has 9 playoff games in his 17 year career where he has scored over 30 points is now the greatest playoff performer of this generation?

This takes being a homer to an all new level.


C'mon man.

Kevin Garnett needs to retire this year. The more he hangs on and his stats drop from his peak the more his career will be devalued when the current crop of NBA fans don't remember his peak.

[drza]

I always say this in every debate where Kevin Garnett defenders argue passionately that he is as good or better then players that are clearly better then him.

BRING UP THE PLAYOFFS.

The argument is circular, whether it's the regular season or the playoffs. You and your crew will hold up boxscore stats, often scoring, and scream that these are the most important things. We'll point out that there are aspects of the game, especially on defense but including offensive creation and distribution, that aren't measured well (or at all, in some cases) by the boxscores and that the best current measures for entire games are the +/- stats. Your side disregards the +/- stats or even the approach that would value what those stats could tell us. Which leaves us in a debate with no common ground, and in which all either side can do is spit a bunch of words at each other.

KG's been a monster in the playoffs over his career. Whether his team was going out in the first round or winning the championship, no player in this generation has done more to carry his team further in the playoffs than KG has. He's done it in a variety of ways too...depending on the situation he's been a dominant scorer, team defender, passer, rebounder, 1-on-1 defender...but he's consistently been a monster.

The default these days is to look to raw points or shooting efficiency to make judgments, and that's fine. But you mention how the future will judge...with the advances in measuring and appreciating other ways of evaluating the game, KG is likely to be the player from this generation that makes the biggest historical leap 10 years from now. I'm heading for the Sloan Conference in Massachussets next month, where the statistical revolution in sports is epitomized and the NBA front office types that are leading that revolution are treated like rock stars. Basketball-reference is adding more and more play-by-play and +/- results to their website, including the postseason.

Bottom line: KG's postseason performance will continue to look better and better as folks get more educated in all the different ways that one can have an impact, and in the different ways of measuring that impact.

This is honestly the funniest thing I have ever read on this site.

Im done.

I can't believe you typed that with a straight face.


The player who only has 9 playoff games in his 17 year career where he has scored over 30 points is now the greatest playoff performer of this generation?

This takes being a homer to an all new level.

And the circle continues...

[G35]

Moses was dominant and the best player in the league in '82 and '83, and of course won the '83 title leading one of the best teams in recent history, but for a new franchise, it gets kind of tough because that '83 Sixer team wasn't actually built around Moses. They had won 59, 62 and 58 games the previous years while losing to the Lakers in 6 in both the '80 and '82 finals and lost to the champion Celtics in 7 during the '81 ECF. So he joined a really good team. Dr. J, Toney, Mo Cheeks and Bobby Jones were already there so he was essentially replacing Caldwell Jones on a team that was already championship-caliber with Jones.

Then if you look at the talent he had around him, Dr. J, Toney and Cheeks all made the all-star team in '83, and Bobby Jones went to the bench, but he had been an all-star in '82 as a starter and was voted 6th man of the year in '83. Jones and Cheeks were also all-defensive 1st team and Dr. J was still all-nba 1st team in '83 and 5th in MVP voting having finished 3rd the previous year behind only Moses and Bird in a year that he also led Philly to game 6 of the finals as the man.

Not to take anything away from Malone's dominant '83 run when he was the best in the game and no doubt elevated an already very good team to all-time great status, but it's important to keep in mind the team that was already in place when he joined.

In Garnett's case, he was hurt by an incompetent organization, and simply didn't have the teams to compete with the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, the twin tower Spurs, the stacked Blazers and the big 3 Mavs.

The one year KG had a chance to contend was 2004 and he won 58 games to get the best record in the West and got to game 6 of the WCF against the Lakers. His cast still wasn't an incredible, though. He had Cassell who had an excellent year and made all-nba 2nd team, and Sprewell could still shoot, had the nice mid-range game, brought energy, was a pretty capable scorer off the dribble and a good defender, but he was also a bit past his prime at 33 years old. But after those two guys, the Wolves had very little talent. Trenton Hassell was a starter and there solely for defense since he was an offensive liability and Fred Hoiberg was exclusively a 3 point shooter. One look at the big men who played alongside KG paints a pretty ugly picture since they consisted of Michael Olowokandi, Mark Madsen and a 36 year old Ervin Johnson. Wally Sczerbiak only played 28 games that year so much of KG's success came without him.

KG also may have won a title or at least gotten to the finals had Cassell not gotten injured. Once Cassell went down, KG had to do a ridiculous amount. Take any contender's 2nd best player away and in almost every case, they won't win a title, much less a team as top-heavy as the '04 Wolves. Impressively, KG won a title the second chance he got in '08, and not only was he option 1.A or 1.B offensively with Pierce, but there's no question he had a ton to do with Boston being one of the great defenses of all-time. Unfortunately, that was the last we got to see of a near-prime KG on a contender due to his injury in '09 and the fact that KG was getting deeper into his 30's, but Boston remained contenders into 2012 when KG nearly led them back to another finals despite being 36. If not for KG's injury in '09, I don't think a 3peat would have been unlikely at all.

Anyway, it's close, and Moses gives you a more dominant scorer as well as a tougher player with more of a physical presence, but KG gives you the all around game, an all-time great defender and unselfishness as well as great passing ability. Moses was never a great defender and he appeared to not only be a subpar passer, but an extremely reluctant one. He seemed much more deserving of the black hole nickname than McHale for example since it seemed to be a regular occurrence for him to get doubled and instead of passing, go to a drop step or power move and force up a shot.

It's close because KG's biggest criticism was that he could be soft offensively and seemed to lack the assertiveness and willingness to take over, but this didn't seem to be a problem in '03 and '04 as far as I saw. In those particular years, KG seemed to be more aggressive and dominant than ever before. At the same time, Moses was the best player in the league in both '82 and '83 over a slightly past-prime Kareem, late prime/slightly past-prime Dr. J and young, pre-prime Bird and Magic so a lot of really good players for Moses to stand out above.

I'm leaning towards KG and one of the reasons is that as good as prime '79-'83, or '79-'85 Moses was, KG's prime was probably comparable, and I think he gives me a longer window to contend considering both their near-prime years and KG's effectiveness on contending Boston teams at the end of his career.

Your point about Moses and joining a stacked team would ring true if not for how Moses performed on those less than stacked teams in Houston.

1976-77 Malone joined a Rockets team that had missed the playoff's the previous year and they made the conference finals losing to those ill fated Sixers.

1977-78 Rockets missed the playoff's because Moses missed 23 games

1978-79 Lost in the first rd

1979-80 Lost in the semi's to the Celtics

1980-81 Beat Magic/Kareem who were champions at the time so they were the underdog. They made it all the way to the NBA finals losing to Bird/McHale/Parish/Maxwell/Archibald a pretty stacked Celtics squad.

Another telling point was that the year Malone was traded to the Sixers the Rockets went 14-68 which allowed the Rockets to get Ralph Sampson.

What Malone did was power his team to upsets; he over achieved with what he was given. That Rockets team upset a team with KAJ/Magic on it... how is this possible? Every time I ask why KG went out 7 straight times in the playoff's the excuse is he went up against better teams. Well isn't basketball won off of matchups? A team can be less talented but they can exploit one matchup and spam that to an upset. What I want to know is it possible in 7 years that KG didn't have one matchup that he could have exploited to lead his team to a playoff series win?

Look at the NBA now, the Heat are the best team because Lebron is a matchup no one can defend against. However, the Pacers can beat the Heat because Paul George can defend Lebron well enough for the rest of the Pacers to hold down the other Heat players. What is funny is that the Pacers do not match up as well against the Thunder because George can't defend Durant as well. But then the Thunder do not have anyone to defend Lebron.

See what I mean? KG does not have that type of game that causes mismatches. I can't remember a time when a team had to double KG and get the ball out of his hand. The ball doesn't go repeatedly to KG until the other team decides they have to double or foul. With KG, I believe teams will play him straight up and take their chances. He doesn't get to the FT line that much and he defers to his teammates quite a bit. It's funny how deferring is a benefit to some players but in others it's seen as a positive.

I personally can't think of any top 20 player all time that deferred as much as KG......

[john248]

KG's been a monster in the playoffs over his career. Whether his team was going out in the first round or winning the championship, no player in this generation has done more to carry his team further in the playoffs than KG has. He's done it in a variety of ways too...depending on the situation he's been a dominant scorer, team defender, passer, rebounder, 1-on-1 defender...but he's consistently been a monster.

I'm glad someone else pointed this out. This is a ridiculous claim of "no player his generation blah blah blah." As guys who did a lot of heavy lifting: Lebron (Cleveland years), 03 Duncan (before their big 3 were in their prime), 06/11 Dirk (with Jet, Josh Howard, & Stackhouse in 06 LOL), Nash (year Amare went down), etc. We can extend this to star players who really had nothing but were 1st round and out, then you add Kobe in 06 & 07, a number of TMac years, Wade 09, etc. When you add in teams with more talented rosters like the 04 year KG had some teammates and his first couple playoffs (excluding when he was injured) with Boston, then you have to add in every other superstar player who were also on talented rosters. Keep in mind, this doesn't diminish KG in any way as he's still being compared to the best and deservedly so.

[Grandpa Waiters]

KG's been a monster in the playoffs over his career. Whether his team was going out in the first round or winning the championship, no player in this generation has done more to carry his team further in the playoffs than KG has. He's done it in a variety of ways too...depending on the situation he's been a dominant scorer, team defender, passer, rebounder, 1-on-1 defender...but he's consistently been a monster.

I'm glad someone else pointed this out. This is a ridiculous claim of "no player his generation blah blah blah." As guys who did a lot of heavy lifting: Lebron (Cleveland years), 03 Duncan (before their big 3 were in their prime), 06/11 Dirk (with Jet, Josh Howard, & Stackhouse in 06 LOL), Nash (year Amare went down), etc. We can extend this to star players who really had nothing but were 1st round and out, then you add Kobe in 06 & 07, a number of TMac years, Wade 09, etc. When you add in teams with more talented rosters like the 04 year KG had some teammates and his first couple playoffs (excluding when he was injured) with Boston, then you have to add in every other superstar player who were also on talented rosters. Keep in mind, this doesn't diminish KG in any way as he's still being compared to the best and deservedly so.

I've seen posters rank KG as high as 9 or 10 in their GOAT rankings while having Moses outside of their top 25. Only on RealGM.

[john248]

KG's been a monster in the playoffs over his career. Whether his team was going out in the first round or winning the championship, no player in this generation has done more to carry his team further in the playoffs than KG has. He's done it in a variety of ways too...depending on the situation he's been a dominant scorer, team defender, passer, rebounder, 1-on-1 defender...but he's consistently been a monster.

I'm glad someone else pointed this out. This is a ridiculous claim of "no player his generation blah blah blah." As guys who did a lot of heavy lifting: Lebron (Cleveland years), 03 Duncan (before their big 3 were in their prime), 06/11 Dirk (with Jet, Josh Howard, & Stackhouse in 06 LOL), Nash (year Amare went down), etc. We can extend this to star players who really had nothing but were 1st round and out, then you add Kobe in 06 & 07, a number of TMac years, Wade 09, etc. When you add in teams with more talented rosters like the 04 year KG had some teammates and his first couple playoffs (excluding when he was injured) with Boston, then you have to add in every other superstar player who were also on talented rosters. Keep in mind, this doesn't diminish KG in any way as he's still being compared to the best and deservedly so.

I've seen posters rank KG as high as 9 or 10 in their GOAT rankings while having Moses outside of their top 25. Only on RealGM.

That's nice. Too bad it has nothing to do with what I wrote and what I was responding too.

[acrossthecourt]

I'm surprised no one's really mentioned this point: Garnett beats Moses in longevity.

People assume Moses had great longevity because he played for a long time, but his time as an elite player was short. Garnett remained an elite defensive anchor into his mid to late 30's.

What's crazy is that he's even rated highly in 1997's RAPM (11th) and 1998's RAPM (5th.) And I'm pretty sure he was highly rated last season too. That's an insane streak of consistently high advanced +/- numbers. That does mean something. It's not a fluke.

There is a reason why no one else has mentioned this point.

There is literally nothing true about this post at all.

Garnett's last year as an elite player is 2008. His prime starts in 1999-2000. A period of 9 seasons.

Moses is an elite player from 1977-78 until 1988-89.
In between those 11 years he puts up numerous seasons and accomplishments that Kevin Garnett could only dream of having, including winning 3 MVPS, taking two different teams to the NBA Finals and winning an NBA FINALS MVP.

If you compare their title.

1983 76ers
12-1. 30 years later still considered one of the most dominant post season runs ever.
Defeats Lakers in NBA Finals 4-0
NBA Finals MVP: Moses Malone
Malone Playoff averages 26 ppg, 15.8 rebounds on 53% shooting

2008 Celtics
16-10 playoff record. The worst playoff record for any NBA champion in league history
Defeats Lakers in NBA Finals 4-2
NBA Finals MVP: Kevin Garnett.....oops my bad, Paul Pierce.
Kevin Garnett playoff averages 20 ppg, 10.5 rebounds, 3.3 assist on 49% shooting


I always say this in every debate where Kevin Garnett defenders argue passionately that he is as good or better then players that are clearly better then him.

BRING UP THE PLAYOFFS.

I haven't seen a single KG fan mention the playoffs.....and I now know why.

I didn't even know what Moses Malone playoff stats were. I just now looked up Moses Malone's playoff stats....and big surprise.....they blow KG's stats out of the water

...

I don't think you understood my post. I was talking about his advanced +/- stats. Since I calculated the RAPM stats for 97 and 98. yes I do know what I'm talking about....

I just thought it was remarkable he has an elite defensive +/- in 1997/98 and 2013 (and his 2014 are improving.)

[acrossthecourt]

Here's what I think is happening.

The backers of Moses Malone are insisting there are no arguments for Garnett, and that we're completely dismissing Moses because for some people have an agenda against him (but why?) and he's an older player people forgot about. I don't have an agenda against older players. I am not trying to forget about them. I'll defend a lot of older players like Russell, Dr. J, Oscar Robertson, Bill Walton, etc. It's not that, and people here need to stop insisting that anti-Moses or pro-Garnett people are simply just younger kids who don't understand the past.

I have nothing against Moses. I just don't like his playing style, I feel his raw numbers overrate his value, and I don't see any compelling evidence of his tremendous value.

I think what people don't like about Garnett, which I think is unfair, is that his best asset is not volume scoring, and traditionally that's how most superstars are judged. I like Garnett for his ability to lead and quarterback the defense at amazing levels. I like his versatility, his ability to stretch the floor, his passing, his intensity, his rebounding (which holds up really well in the post-season, by the way.) That's why I think he's one of the best players of all-time. He does those important tasks at extraordinary levels.

And I don't understand the reservations against a guy who's better at defense than volume scoring. Isn't the maxim about championships defense? And unselfishness? That's KG....

Addendum: we're overlooking the fact that Garnett is actually a much better defensive rebounder. He has several seasons at nearly 30% DREB, which few players have ever done. His total rebounding numbers are lower because he doesn't grab many offensive boards since he hangs out on the perimeter. But don't hold that against him -- I'd rather have a PF/C who can space the floor with one of the best jump shots in the game than someone clogging the paint and going after offensive rebounds instead of getting back on transition D. The Celtics with KG were some of the worst offensive rebounding teams ever mostly because of strategy. I think KG's perimeter skills are more important than offensive rebounding, which doesn't correlate with titles/wins anyway.

[boquilla]

Starting a new franchise, who you got?

Moses

[john248]

Here's what I think is happening.

The backers of Moses Malone are insisting there are no arguments for Garnett, and that we're completely dismissing Moses because for some people have an agenda against him (but why?) and he's an older player people forgot about. I don't have an agenda against older players. I am not trying to forget about them. I'll defend a lot of older players like Russell, Dr. J, Oscar Robertson, Bill Walton, etc. It's not that, and people here need to stop insisting that anti-Moses or pro-Garnett people are simply just younger kids who don't understand the past.

TBH, you're probably wasting your time saying this. There are people who will claim recency effect then go the opposite and then claim nostalgia effect or remembering someone who was better than they were in another topic.

I side with KG too. The only other thing I have to add in defense of Moses though is I don't mind him clogging the paint on offense. That is where his value is.