PC Board OT thread

[magicmerl]

I'll just leave this here: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

Spoiler:

[ThaRegul8r]

You're right, he wasn't stupid, but based on what he did to the natives when he got here, he could easily be described as evil. He's one of my least favorite historical figures, mainly because of how incorrect he was, the atrocities he committed when he got here, and worst of all, the fact that he's propped up as some hero and erroneously given credit that he doesn't deserve. When I was a kid, my teachers taught me that he discovered the Americas and was the only person to believe that the Earth was round...everyone else thought the world was flat and that when you got to the edge, you'd fall off the face of the Earth. Except we now know that both of those things were complete BS, and that Columbus actively captured, robbed, enslaved, and raped the native population. So why is this guy famous again?

For establishing the American Way.

[Jim Naismith]

I'll just leave this here: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

Spoiler:

I think many people here are missing the Italian-American ethnic-pride angle.

From Wikipedia:

Many Italian-Americans observe Columbus Day as a celebration of their heritage, the first occasion being in New York City on October 12, 1866. Columbus Day was first enshrined as a legal holiday in the United States through the lobbying of Angelo Noce, a first generation Italian, in Denver.

Opposition to Columbus Day dates to at least the 19th century where activists had sought to eradicate Columbus Day celebrations because of its association with immigrants and the Knights of Columbus. They were afraid it was being used to expand Catholic influence.

[FJS]

Hey, I'm FranJazzSpain = FJS. At first I logged with that username, but I was banned to make some infamous post in Lakers forums vs Kobe.
Then after my apologies I could return, but FranJazzSpain was not eligible, so I come back as FJS.

My name, of course is Fran, and I'm a 34 years old man from Barcelona, Spain. I'm 6'1, and still play pick ups games once a week, a lot more in summer.

I have seen NBA since I was 7 in 1987 finals. Until 99 I was watching only playoffs and one game per week or so, and I was a big Stockton and Malone fan.
Since I'm watching closely the league, and I'm pretty proud to have watched, Lakers Showtime, Bird's Celtics, Bad Boys, Barkley's Suns, Stockton and Malone Jazz, MJ-Pippen Bulls and another legendary teams.

[magicmerl]

I'll just leave this here: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

I think many people here are missing the Italian-American ethnic-pride angle.

From Wikipedia:

Many Italian-Americans observe Columbus Day as a celebration of their heritage, the first occasion being in New York City on October 12, 1866. Columbus Day was first enshrined as a legal holiday in the United States through the lobbying of Angelo Noce, a first generation Italian, in Denver.

Opposition to Columbus Day dates to at least the 19th century where activists had sought to eradicate Columbus Day celebrations because of its association with immigrants and the Knights of Columbus. They were afraid it was being used to expand Catholic influence.

erm,
1. Columbus day didn't become a national holiday until 1906. So how could 'activists' oppose it in the 19th century?
2. Why does Italian nationalism need to be part of american identity?
3. What makes you think that the opposition was unjustified?
4. Why do you think that the holiday is justified?
5. I can't help but notice that you ignored basically ALL of the facts from the link I posted

[Jim Naismith]

erm,
1. Columbus day didn't become a national holiday until 1906. So how could 'activists' oppose it in the 19th century?

I posted text verbatim from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_day

You can see the reference there:

Kubap, Timothy (2008). Cultural movements and collective memory: Christopher Columbus and the rewriting of the national origin myth. Macmillan. pp. 33–36.

2. Why does Italian nationalism need to be part of american identity?

It was probably in reaction to discrimination against Italian immigrants by the Anglo-Protestant American mainstream.

Your use of nationalism is a little too strong a term. I used the term ethnic pride.

3. What makes you think that the opposition was unjustified?
4. Why do you think that the holiday is justified?
5. I can't help but notice that you ignored basically ALL of the facts from the link I posted

I offered no opinion on Columbus Day.

I pasted just some basic facts from Wikipedia about its origins as an Italian-American immigrant-pride celebration.

[Jim Naismith]

I'll just leave this here: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

A pop cultural reference to Columbus as a hero to Italian-Americans:

"Because from the time of the great Christopher Columbus up through the time of Enrico Fermi right up to the present day -- Italian-Americans have been pioneers in building and defending our great nation. They are the soil o' the earth and one of the backbones of this country."

―Senator Geary, The Godfather: Part II

[Jim Naismith]

I'll just leave this here: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

Another American politician refers to Columbus as Italian-American:

A son of Genoa, Italy, Columbus blazed a trail for generations of Italians who followed his path across the Atlantic. As we mark the anniversary of his voyage, our Nation embraces the many ways Italian Americans have enriched our culture and our communities -- as soldiers who defend our Nation in times of war, as leaders and laborers, as educators and entrepreneurs. This deep-rooted heritage has come to define who we are as a Nation, and it has helped us forge an extraordinary transatlantic partnership with the people of Italy.

—Barack Obama, Presidential Proclamation, Columbus Day, 2013

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-off ... s-day-2013

[therealbig3]

But he didn't even sail to America as an Italian...he sailed for Spain. The lands he sailed to were claimed for the Spanish empire.

I see no reason why his voyages should be considered part of Italian's cultural history. The Italians wanted nothing to do with him when he came to them with his proposal to sail westward to the East Indies.

And was European expansion into the Americas even a good thing, and something to be proud of, considering the horrible things that happened as a result? I'd argue that they weren't.

[Jim Naismith]

But he didn't even sail to America as an Italian...he sailed for Spain. The lands he sailed to were claimed for the Spanish empire.

This didn't stop the 19th-century Italian immigrants who wanted an Italian-American hero.

In the search for a usable past, this often happens.

[Hawk]

I didn't know who the hell was that Columbus guy until I realized that Christopher Columbus = Cristobal Colon

[therealbig3]

But he didn't even sail to America as an Italian...he sailed for Spain. The lands he sailed to were claimed for the Spanish empire.

This didn't stop the 19th-century Italian immigrants who wanted an Italian-American hero.

In the search for a usable past, this often happens.

Which is kind of the point of why I REALLY don't get Columbus's status as a hero. His entire legacy is a lie. He did way more harm than good. The only people that his voyages benefitted were white, European immigrants...which I guess is why they see him as a hero, but nobody else should.

And if those people with European heritage were honest with themselves about Columbus and actually read up on what he did, they wouldn't be proud of him either.

LOL, the guy did things that were probably on the same level as Hitler, and yet he's considered a hero because he happened to help establish European immigration. I'm sure Germans don't consider Hitler a hero, even though he did lead Germany to their peak in terms of being a world power. Just because someone is a part of building your own legacy doesn't mean you should endorse his terrible deeds.

[Jim Naismith]

Which is kind of the point of why I REALLY don't get Columbus's status as a hero. His entire legacy is a lie. He did way more harm than good. The only people that his voyages benefitted were white, European immigrants...which I guess is why they see him as a hero, but nobody else should.

Italians immigrants were often treated as second-class foreigners in the 19th century United States: they weren't really considered "white."

Columbus was a useful historical figure for an Italian wishing to assimilate into a country populated primarily by Northern European Protestants.

An Italian American facing xenophobia could point to Columbus and proudly say "I too am American, just like Columbus."

[lorak]

LOL, the guy did things that were probably on the same level as Hitler, and yet he's considered a hero because he happened to help establish European immigration. I'm sure Germans don't consider Hitler a hero, even though he did lead Germany to their peak in terms of being a world power. Just because someone is a part of building your own legacy doesn't mean you should endorse his terrible deeds.

I agree with you general conclusion (that Columbus is - to use basketball terminology - overrated), but comparison to Hitler is way off, because Columbus wasn't responsible for mass extermination.

[ronnymac2]

Magellan > Columbus. Magellan went around the world. He was fearless. He had peerless navigation skills and probably had amazing footwork skills on deck. He had extra gears that Columbus couldn't dream of.

Magellan's extra gears >

[therealbig3]

LOL, the guy did things that were probably on the same level as Hitler, and yet he's considered a hero because he happened to help establish European immigration. I'm sure Germans don't consider Hitler a hero, even though he did lead Germany to their peak in terms of being a world power. Just because someone is a part of building your own legacy doesn't mean you should endorse his terrible deeds.

I agree with you general conclusion (that Columbus is - to use basketball terminology - overrated), but comparison to Hitler is way off, because Columbus wasn't responsible for mass extermination.

Is it way off? Columbus probably would have if he had the technology for it.

Just read magicmerl's post. He was raping women, as well as 9-10 year old girls. He was capturing natives. He was murdering them and feeding them to dogs. He hunted them for sport. He was mutilating them. He enslaved them. And these were the FRIENDLY natives!

And all of these actions were in pursuit of gold, which led to the export of slaves from Africa, since the demand for gold had dried up. So Columbus established the institution of slavery in the New World, which haunted us until the 19th century.

And are you sure it didn't lead to mass extermination? Look at what happened to the native population...

[lorak]

LOL, the guy did things that were probably on the same level as Hitler, and yet he's considered a hero because he happened to help establish European immigration. I'm sure Germans don't consider Hitler a hero, even though he did lead Germany to their peak in terms of being a world power. Just because someone is a part of building your own legacy doesn't mean you should endorse his terrible deeds.

I agree with you general conclusion (that Columbus is - to use basketball terminology - overrated), but comparison to Hitler is way off, because Columbus wasn't responsible for mass extermination.

Is it way off? Columbus probably would have if he had the technology for it.

Just read magicmerl's post. He was raping women, as well as 9-10 year old girls. He was capturing natives. He was murdering them and feeding them to dogs. He hunted them for sport. He was mutilating them. He enslaved them. And these were the FRIENDLY natives!

And all of these actions were in pursuit of gold, which led to the export of slaves from Africa, since the demand for gold had dried up. So Columbus established the institution of slavery in the New World, which haunted us until the 19th century.

And are you sure it didn't lead to mass extermination? Look at what happened to the native population...

But natives weren't exterminated on mass scale by Columbus! Saying that he is responsible for what happened later is like saying that man who invented gunpowder is responsible for deaths of all people who were shot. The same with slavery - it existed long before eastern civilization learned how to write.

BTW, natives weren't better than people from Europe. They were killing each other on big scale and in much brutal way than Europeans. Generally "friendly natives" is a myth. Sure, some tribes were friendly, but most of them, especially the bigger ones, were basically savages who didn't care about human life and were sacrificing many people to "gods"...

[therealbig3]

But natives weren't exterminated on mass scale by Columbus! Saying that he is responsible for what happened later is like saying that man who invented gunpowder is responsible for deaths of all people who were shot. The same with slavery - it existed long before eastern civilization learned how to write.

BTW, natives weren't better than people from Europe. They were killing each other on big scale and in much brutal way than Europeans. Generally "friendly natives" is a myth. Sure, some tribes were friendly, but most of them, especially the bigger ones, were basically savages who didn't care about human life and were sacrificing many people to "gods"...

But what I'm saying is, he saw them as inferior people, and he did things that were just as bad as what Hitler did. Hitler was a horrible person, yes. He ordered mass extermination of Jewish people, yes. But how can you really quantify what's worse? Raping little girls, or the gas chamber? Concentration camps, or slavery? Mutilation, or mutilation?

Hitler's actions were on a wider scale, but the actual acts themselves, I don't see a difference.

As for your 2nd paragraph...I never said natives were "better". They're people too, and people inherently aren't good or bad, they just...exist. But they had their own way of life, and they were flourishing. Columbus dominates them, because he could, and he kind of establishes the way that European immigrants treat the natives. If Columbus came along and didn't think about how easy it was to dominate them and how technologically inferior they were...if he instead decided to treat them as equals and was friendly to them...you don't think that would have had a major impact on subsequent native-European relations?

And I mentioned the friendly tribes, because the group of natives that Columbus first met happened to be very friendly, and helped him out a lot (the Lucayans, I think?). He responded by annihilating them.

And yeah, Columbus wasn't directly responsible for the mass extermination of the natives...but you can't really ignore the aftermath that resulted from Columbus's actions. Just like I don't see how you can ignore the aftermath of the invention of gunpowder. Just like the scientists behind the creation of the atom bomb felt regret when they saw the power of what they created and the kind of destruction it could cause. Just like Alfred Nobel felt horrible about creating dynamite and instead established the Nobel Peace Prize, because he didn't want violence to be his lasting impact.

The subsequent events that are a result of someone's actions are all part of that person's "legacy" imo...when you're talking about cultural impact, you have to include that in the discussion.

[lorak]

he did things that were just as bad as what Hitler did.

Sure, probably he even killed more people by his own hands than Hitler (did he kill anyone except himself?). But so do many other people in history and they aren't equal to Hitler. And also that doesn't change the fact, that Columbus wasn't responsible for what happened to natives after his death.

Hitler was a horrible person, yes. He ordered mass extermination of Jewish people, yes.

Why do you Americans acting like Jews were only victims of Germans? Poles or Russians suffered much more than Jews during (and after) WW II.

But how can you really quantify what's worse? Raping little girls, or the gas chamber? Concentration camps, or slavery? Mutilation, or mutilation?

Hitler's actions were on a wider scale, but the actual acts themselves, I don't see a difference.

Ok, so every murder or rapist in your book = Hitler. I understand that point of view, but I strongly disagree with it.

As for your 2nd paragraph...I never said natives were "better". They're people too, and people inherently aren't good or bad, they just...exist. But they had their own way of life, and they were flourishing. Columbus dominates them, because he could, and he kind of establishes the way that European immigrants treat the natives. If Columbus came along and didn't think about how easy it was to dominate them and how technologically inferior they were...if he instead decided to treat them as equals and was friendly to them...you don't think that would have had a major impact on subsequent native-European relations?

No, and no offense, but I think it's very naive to think otherwise. You might not believe me, but history of mankind proves I'm right

[therealbig3]

Why do you Americans acting like Jews were only victims of Germans? Poles or Russians suffered much more than Jews during (and after) WW II.

We'll agree to disagree about just how bad Columbus was, but I meant no offense with regards to this.

It's just how we're taught in school, the suffering of the Jewish people is focused on the most.

I know Stalin actually killed MORE people than Hitler did.