RealGM Top 100 List #16

[D Nice]

Karl and Robinson on offense?

Spoiler:

I was working on a marathon post, but realistically there's no way I'm going to finish it today so I'll just cut this piece off and throw it to the room. My question is, stylistically, what was the difference between Malone and Robinson on offense? Skill-set wise, what advantages did one have vs. the other?

It occurred to me while watching some old Malone video, how much of his offensive game was predicated on his awesome physical ability. He was 6-9, built like a brick house, fast, and had excellent hands. Early in his career, that alone was worth 20+ points on fast breaks, finishes off the catch in traffic, put-backs and pick-and-roll finishes. His passing ability and mid-range jumper developed more over time, but early in his career he did a lot of his scoring just by being a beast. He had a few low-post moves, but nothing very advanced and most relied on either out-strengthing or out-quicking his opponent off of 1-or-2 dribbles.

Robinson was a 7-1 athletic freak. He wasn't quite as strong as the Mailman, but he was longer, faster, and still ripped. He, too, had great hands and touch around the rim. He also had more ability to play above the rim. His post-game wasn't overly refined either, but I think he had at least as many (maybe a few more) post moves than Malone, even if they were a bit mechanical. He also relied on out-quicking his opponents off the dribble, and IMO had a better first step than Malone. And while he didn't over-power opponents down low, his length let him finish over people better than Malone.

Here are their actual offensive numbers again from their primes, but what I'm looking for is a sense for what one could do that the other couldn't and vice versa. Both early in their careers, and later on. Anyone who remembers watching them and/or folks that've been scouting videos have any insights on this?

Box Score stats:
Karl Malone (1990 - 1999): 36.8 pts (59.3% TS), 5 ast, 4 TO
David Robinson (90 - 2000): 33.3 pts (58.8% TS), 4 ast, 3.9 TO

Playoffs, 10 year primes per 100 possessions
Karl Malone (1990 - 1999): 35 pts (52.9%), 4.4 asts, 3.7 TO
David Robinson (90 - 2000): 30 pts (54.6%), 3.8 ast, 3.7 TO

Spoiler:

Karl's style of play (I believe what you refer to as skill-set) made his offense appreciably more valuable (even in his younger days when his jumper wasn't what it was later in his career). His go-to moves were more efficient and his more varied style of scoring made the times when defenses keyed on/studied him (ie playoffs) less of a factor (you see this with the bigger drop-off in volume/efficiency for D-Rob relative to Karl). He's clearly a better passer/playmaker, and he drew a lot more double teams. With David, typically your guards had to be the ones to at least get the defense to start shifting before he's able to get a good look or a foul. Karl was just as capable as his guards in initiating productive offensive sequences. That's why, even when neither guy is shooting particularly well, Karl was able to achieve more "global lift" in relation to his team's offense.

I wouldn't say one was really a better transition player than the other, the gap between David and other centers isn't materially smaller than the gap between Karl and his PF contemporaries. Honestly, David might actually have the slightly bigger edge there (transition offense though, is the least important facet of a guy's efficacy, they're kind of random and the "reproducibility" of those opportunities aren't really tied to a player's individual offensive ability).

Honestly, these relative flaws are born out pretty clearly in their head-to-head matchups (where Karl slaughtered David) if you wanted to pull up some game-tape before casting a definitive vote.

David's case is defensive anchor-age and strictly that. Karl's edge on the offensive end is sizable.

Spoiler:

Interesting. My recollection doesn't seem to match yours, especially for their early careers. By the mid-late 90s Malone had developed his jumper and improved his passing, so I could see him creating added value there. But before that, I don't at all remember a decisive advantage for Malone as far as efficiency or varied styles of scoring. That, in fact, was one of the things that I always felt was a weakness about Karl's game...his LACK of varied scoring. Karl had a variety of ways to get open in the paint while moving without the ball. Of course there was the roll after a pick; he was also good at cutting without the ball; he was excellent at using his body to bully his man into disadvantageous positions, and he had great hands. So I remember an awful lot of Malone's buckets coming from him getting into the paint, receiving a good entry pass, and him finishing strong.

What I remember a lot less of is the ball coming to Malone in any kind of iso, with him then making a move to either create an easy shot for himself or his team. Obviously it happened sometimes, but the ratio of times that happened vs times he was finishing off a set-up in the paint is very low in my memory. I did a bit of You-tubing after reading your message, and (in my brief perusal) I didn't see much that deviates from my memory. I watched a Malone highlight video from (I believe) game 4 of the '94 series with the Spurs, and what I saw from Malone's scoring was a lot of what I described above. The main difference was that he had developed his jumper by then, and he had a few set-shot jumpers from the mid-range out to the 3-point line and he hit one turnaround as well. Other than that, though, I was primarily seeing hiim get good position on Rodman, receive a pass and finish.

That recollection is actually what sparked me to bring this up, because before Malone built up that jumper, it seems to me that Robinson's offensive attack looked a lot like Malone's. The difference being, as I mentioned, that Robinson was finishing vertically while Malone was powering through. I also did a short bit of You-tubing on Robinson, and if anything I had forgotten a bit just how explosive of a leaper he was when it came time to finish. I was watching a highlite tape so there were a lot of dunks (which isn't really what I wanted to see), but the sequence of dunks did bring home the fact that if Robinson got the ball anywhere from the block in and there wasn't a defender with his body on him in good position, it was a dunk. Period. Also, while he didn't have Malone's girth to bully his way to the rim as much, he was great at circling around from the back on the weakside of the rim and finding soft spots in the paint where he could out-leap his defender to catch and/or finish.

You mentioned Robinson having a larger postseason drop-off in volume and scoring efficiency than Malone, but I don't see that at all. I've been posting their per-100 scoring and efficiency over their prime years, and their drop-offs were actually very similar. To whit:

Box Score stats:
Karl Malone (1990 - 1999): 36.8 pts (59.3% TS), 5 ast, 4 TO
David Robinson (90 - 2000): 33.3 pts (58.8% TS), 4 ast, 3.9 TO

Playoffs, 10 year primes per 100 possessions
Karl Malone (1990 - 1999): 35 pts (52.9%), 4.4 asts, 3.7 TO
David Robinson (90 - 2000): 30 pts (54.6%), 3.8 ast, 3.7 TO

Also, ElGee and (I believe) AcrossTheCourt both did pretty detailed breakdowns of great players (including Malone and Robinson) against difficult defenses and/or against postseason defenses, and again the findings weren't to Malone's advantage when it comes to Robinson. Either they were both similar, or in some ways Malone's drop-off was bigger.

So as yet, I'm not feeling your conclusion that Robinson's only argument over Malone is defense. In fact, I'm seeing almost the exact opposite. Malone's argument over Robinson is purely longevity, and also he can hang his hat on their head-to-head postseason match-ups in 94 and 96 in particular. But in general I think that Robinson was very similar to Malone as an offensive player, but dramatically better as a defender. And I'm actually hoping that a more involved conversation about their offensive skills might tease out whether my thought process/memory is on track or not.

Yeah, I was looking mainly at D-Rob's fg% in the post-season stats, when you look at his TS%, his elite FTR actually allowed him to maintain some respectable TS%s a lot of those years, and I was clearly over-focusing on his anemic '94 & '95 performances (probably because those stick out to me more than any other part of D-Rob's career).

I stand by the offense-initiation though. Karl was clearly superior in creating looks for others and in general starting productive offensive sequences without the help of his guards (nobody is really going to double David out of fear so much as they would to switch up coverages), and his skill-set allowed for more flexible offenses (hence Utah's superior ORTGs, though I'm sure some would attribute this more to Stockton as a running mate than any inherent advantage Karl might have).There's also the consistency issues.

In his 3 extended playoff runs pre-Duncan he's held to to 3/10 games under 20 points in '93, 3/10 games under 20 points in '96 (including back-to-back 11 point games against Karl's Jazz) and 4/15 times in '95. Not only was he playing on squads less suited to sustaining those kind of performances than Malone's, but they were more harmful to his team because high volume-high efficiency performances are the only times when he's bringing top-tier offensive impact to his team. As a finisher, he's not doing anything else.

For reference, Karl's extended runs don't share these same issues. There's the argument "well, he shoots more shots," but, as Bill Walton would imply, David really never had the ability to even get up that many shots.

In '88 Karl was held to <20 points in 1/11 games
In '92 Karl was held to <20 points in 2/16 games
In '94 Karl was held to <20 points 0 times in 16 games
In '96 Karl was held to <20 points in 1/18 games
In '97 Karl was held to <20 points in 2/20 games
In '98 Karl was held to <20 points in 3/20 games
In '99 Karl was held to <20 points 2/11 games (including an 8 point outing in the elimination game)
In '00 Karl was held to <20 points 1/10 games

I'm with you on the efficacy of his finishing ability, it was indeed not notch, but I'm not necessarily in agreement that it's something that works in his favor in a way that doesn't already show up in his box-score numbers. The very flaw we're discussing is that outside of finishing plays at an elite rate he's not doing a whole lot to lift his team offenses, where Karl is creating looks by forcing doubles and through his (much) superior passing ability.

I appreciate the corrections though, definitely should have been a bit more thorough before making the drop-off statement, and you definitely left me with some things to think about.

[Jim Naismith]

Okay so now you've got a system whereby a consensus MVP is worth three seasons of the (consensus) 2nd best player. Or with a unanimously ordered top 5, your weighting prefers having guy number 1 to having all of 2-5. Together. All of them. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there is no season in NBA history where I would rather have the top player than all of the next four, not one.

I don't think the system is meant for you to aggregate across multiple players, just multiple years.

Old system says: 7 years of peak Jordan = 10 years of peak Malone

New system says: 1 year of peak Jordan = 3 years of peak Malone

Which do you prefer?

In as much as it represents any relative value (i.e. would anyone trade...) it should be valid by any measure.
And if it doesn't compare across multiple players, why are you using it to compare players. So far as I can tell, the original measure wasn't meant to be used as either.

But yours does seem to suggest Moses is worth roughly 2.5x David Robinson, or Robinson and Dirk together

The PoY shares is essentially a "value above replacement player" metric, where the baseline is very high.

What baseline do we use? Well, implicitly anyone who doesn't get a single PoY vote counts as zero. So in 2013-14, Joakim Noah counts as zero. Carmelo Anthony, Tony Parker, they're all zeros. This gives you an idea who the "replacement players" are when we discuss elites.

Under my system, Isiah Thomas has a career total score of 0.103, so he's a near-baseline player.

So the question is not whether Moses > Dirk + Robinson.

The question becomes whether Moses + Isiah > Dirk + Robinson.

That's a less obvious question.

[D Nice]

I voted for Karl Malone about the same time as this post. Just checking to see if we're still in a run-off between Moses and Dirk.

Yikes, that's some timing snafoo.

This is by far the lowest vote volume so far too. Maybe wait on a few more posters before a runoff? Just a possible suggestion, don't really listen to me if trying to keep on schedule.

[FJS]

Here is how I have it:

Moses(4) – DannyNoonan1221, JordansBulls, DQuinn1575, basketballefan

Dirk (4) – Quotatious, ardee, fpliii, penbeast0



Karl Malone(3) – ronnymac2, trex_8063, DHodgkins,

Barkley – ShaqAttack3234

Moses is in the runoff; there is a tie for second between Karl Malone and Dirk Nowitzki. Each has good arguments; Karl Malone is the greatest of the traditional PF with post scoring, rebounding, and man defense combined with GOAT level durability. Dirk is the best of the new age stretch 4's with great size and outside shooting plus superior playoff runs. I came in ready to vote for Karl Malone but I am surprised to find that the posts I have read seem more convincing that Dirk is actually the greater player. To a large part, for me the deciding factor is winner's bias; I think Dirk's playoff scoring which seems relatively unaffected by the quality of defense he faced gives you a better chance at rings that Karl's great consistency. I cast my vote for Dirk Nowitzki; if I missed any votes, please let me know.

i voted for karl malone.... and you haven't counted me.

[ThaRegul8r]

I think Dirk's playoff scoring which seems relatively unaffected by the quality of defense he faced gives you a better chance at rings that Karl's great consistency.

That sums up my sentiments on the matter as well. Both are scorers, people talk about Malone being the second-leading scorer all-time, but if his ability to utilize that to help his team win was diminished in the postseason while another player demonstrated the "matchup independence" I talked about before, then that player has the edge. As I was thinking more about longevity, it's only relevant to me insofar as a player provides additional value with it.

I was thinking about Kareem and Wilt the other day as an example. Wilt was 36 years, 262 days old at the time he played his last NBA game. He had helped his teams win two NBA titles. At the same age, Kareem had helped his teams win three NBA titles and was in the midst of his 13th season, at the end of which he was First Team All-NBA and Second Team All-Defense. The next season, he helped his team win another title, performing well enough to win Finals MVP at 38 years and 54 days old--522 days after Wilt had already retired. He then contributed to two more titles. That's an example of additional value provided with longevity.

[FJS]

With me and sactown there's 5 votes to karl, 4 for Dirk and Moses.

[FJS]

I think Dirk's playoff scoring which seems relatively unaffected by the quality of defense he faced gives you a better chance at rings that Karl's great consistency.

That sums up my sentiments on the matter as well. Both are scorers, people talk about Malone being the second-leading scorer all-time, but if his ability to utilize that to help his team win was diminished in the postseason while another player demonstrated the "matchup independence" I talked about before, then that player has the edge. As I was thinking more about longevity, it's only relevant to me insofar as a player provides additional value with it.

Cmon... karl malone was still a beast in scoring in po. He averaged 26.4 ppg in po with jazz. Higher than his rs averages. His TS is worse than dirk because dirk is better in ft and 3pt but his fg% it's not better. Neither his rebounds or deffense.

[90sAllDecade]

Still watching the 2001 playoff series DNice posted, so can't comment right now.

But @FJS and other Karl Malone advocates, I know Malone was good defensively against Robinson. If you have other times he stepped up his defense in the postseason that would help his case I think.

[john248]

Going to squeeze in a Dirk vote here while I have a tiny bit of time this weekend.

My vote is for Dirk Nowitzki. Dirk is the prototype stretch 4 who's offensive game extends beyond the 3 point line. He's always been a good offensive player but was great 08+. It's an accomplishment for him to lead a team to the Finals in 06 with the roster Dallas had at that time though it was also that Finals that many labeled him as a choke. It especially became more of a concern in 07 when his team lost as the #1 seed vs #8 Golden State. Much of that fell on Dirk since GSW sent a bunch of smaller, quicker guys to guard him. But it was the start of seeing Dirk more in the post where he's possibly the greatest high post player ever. Essentially what he were able to see is a player who can beat you from everywhere on the court where smaller, quicker guys could at least guard him on the perimeter since now he can post them up. He was warping defenses before this, but now he was also individually much greater. He's always been good at drawing fouls and has been a solid passer.

His offensive value is so great, it does offset his defensive shortcomings. He was solid as a man defender and his defensive rebounding does pick up in the playoffs and is comparable to Moses in that regard. Unfortunately, he wasn't a game changing help defender on that end especially when he's a 7 footer. Still a great playoff performer on the whole and a great teammate. Longevity is solid too.

mysticbb re: VS Moses

the better scorer/rebounder/defender isn't picked here?

Playoff numbers. All 12 years for Nowitzki and for Malone from 1979 to 1989.

Code: Select all

              Gm   PPG   TS%   ORB%  DRB%  AST%  TOV%  STL%  BLK%  PER  WS/48
Malone        77   23.8  54.8  14.1  23.4  6.5   11.3  1.1   2.4   22.1 0.177
Nowitzki     128   25.9  58.4  4.2   24.6  11.8  9.4   1.4   1.8   24.7 0.205


So, overall Malone had a couple of more blocked shots and the higher ORB%. The higher BLK% came from Malone rather trying to block a shot than really defend the position and the higher ORB% was a result of Malone playing strictly underneath the opponents basket. Overall Malone's playing style did not lead to a huge impact. His defense was mediocre at best, him being late back on defense was making the defense rather worse. Nowitzki has to be seen as the better defender.
Malone's positional advantage underneath the own basket did not lead to a higher percentage of rebounds. That is a big indicator that Nowitzki is indeed the better rebounder. The raw boxscore numbers are giving a misleading impression here.
Nowitzki has a huge advantage in terms of passing and ball handling, something which can't be ignored. Overall Nowitzki was the higher impact player and a look at the advanced boxscore metrics reveals him also having the better combination of production and efficiency. Thus, the logical choice has to be Nowitzki in both cases. Especially for the team building aspect we have to see that Malone missed more games.

[Basketballefan]

I think Dirk's playoff scoring which seems relatively unaffected by the quality of defense he faced gives you a better chance at rings that Karl's great consistency.

That sums up my sentiments on the matter as well. Both are scorers, people talk about Malone being the second-leading scorer all-time, but if his ability to utilize that to help his team win was diminished in the postseason while another player demonstrated the "matchup independence" I talked about before, then that player has the edge. As I was thinking more about longevity, it's only relevant to me insofar as a player provides additional value with it.

Cmon... karl malone was still a beast in scoring in po. He averaged 26.4 ppg in po with jazz. Higher than his rs averages. His TS is worse than dirk because dirk is better in ft and 3pt but his fg% it's not better. Neither his rebounds or deffense.

I hear you on this, people act like Dirk is on a different level than Karl. I guess thats the case if one is obsessed with advanced stats and the fact that he has a ring. Because lets be real they have similar playoff success and Dirk wouldnt have beaten Mj either. I voted Moses but Karl is my next guy. Then Dirk after him.

[john248]

Still watching the 2001 playoff series DNice posted, so can't comment right now.

But @FJS and other Karl Malone advocates, I know Malone was good defensively against Robinson. If you have other times he stepped up his defense in the postseason that would help his case I think.

At the moment, I just happened to be on the 96 WCF over at BBallRef. Good god...Kemp went off in the series 73%TS, 120 ORTG, 20/10. In the elimination game, Malone went 8/22 for 22 points, 4 TOs, and just 6 of 12 FT. Ouch... Kemp, OTOH, was a beast. Malone missing FTs isn't new. He missed a couple in game 1 against the Bulls the next year before Jordan hit a game winner. Hmm...I don't want this to come off as anti-Malone. I was just flipping through some of Malone's playoff series as I pass time now.



ElGee's Malone's good playoffs

ElGee wrote:

Karl Malone's Great Games

I think the focusing on all the negatives, with all players, does a great disservice to their positives. As I've said, it's better to have a guy with 10 amazing seasons and 5 horrible ones than a guy with 5 amazing seasons and 0 horrible ones.

People really need to consider how much this Losing Bias plays tricks on their brains. The lasting memory of Malone being stripped, or missing 2 FT's in the opening Finals game (on the heels of one or two questionable outs in the past) smacks of availibility heuristic (error). The brain will over-emphasize that easily accessible information in analysis. It happens to all players who lose, and the opposite happens to players who win.

I find it ironic that so many people who like to look at team roster don't consider just how much Malone did for the Jazz. He's quite similar to Dirk Nowitzki and this year's Dallas team ITO structure. Stockton by the late 90s has a reduced role of efficiency, and not much more (like Kidd). The team has a few shooters, a smart coach, a decent bench (Utah never had a Tyson Chandler) and it all revolves around Malone.

Anyway, in focusing on the positive and what people may have forgotten (or never known), here are Malone's greatest games from his prime:

1988
G2 LA – Malone scores 18 of his 29 in second half to “stun” LA at the Forum.
G6 LA – He predicts a G7 and delivers with 27-11 (58.5% TS)
G7 LA – In defeat again back-to-back champs, 31 points 15 rebounds (62.1% TS)

1989
G2 GSW – Malone, scoreless in the 1st of G1 (16 in 2nd half) came out blazing, with 14 in first and 24 at half. He finished with 37 points (13-25, 11-14) and 22 rebounds, but the rest of the jazz were 18-54 (33%). I just don't see the evidence his team was very good in these years (Malone had 33-14 in G3).

1990
G4 Pho After going just 23-62 in the first 3 games, Malone helps force game 5 with 33 points (13-24, 7-9) and 11 rebounds. (Note, in Game 5, Malone tied the score with a 20-footer in the final seconds of the game, but KJ hit a buzzer beater to win. Malone 26-9 (10-19, 6-12) in that game, Stockton just 3-11)

1991
G5 Pho – Malone scores 11 of his 38 points in the 4th quarter to close out the Suns.
G2 Por – After a subpar G1, Malone goes for 40 in G2 defeat. He sparks a 23-point deficit, 45-point fourth quarter with 20 4th-quarter points of his own (31 in 2nd half). They lose on a Terry Porter buzzer beater. Malone made 2 Fts with 41 seconds left ot cut it 116-112, then forced a jump on Ainge on inbounds. Utah won it, Jeff Malone hit to make it 116-114, then Karl tied it with FT's at 116-116.

1992
G4 v LAC Malone with 44 and 11 but rest of Jazz combine for 23-55 (41.8%) and Clips shoot 50% to win.
G5 v Sea – To closeout Sonics, Malone scores 15 of his 37 in 4th, erasing an 8 point hole.
G3 v Por – Down 2-0 and back home, Malone goes for an absolute gem: 39-7-7 (68% TS)
G5 v Por – In the pivotal game of the series, with Stockton injured and out most of game, Malone carries the Jazz into OT with 38 points. This game was on classic recently and I've referenced, but it's a hugely steady diet of Karl on offense for Utah. Malone had 28 of 38 in 2nd half. He had 14 rebounds.

1994
G4 v Spurs – He closes out San Antonio with 34 and 12 (60% TS) and the key 20-footer with 42 seconds left to put Utah up 91-88.
G7 v Den – Malone with 31 and 14 on 12-23. “Karl took over” Hornacek said afterwards.

1995
G3 Hou – After Houston evened the series, Malone dropped 32-19-5 in Hou, with 21 in the second half. Malone had 11 in the third to spark the game's key run, according to AP report.

1996
G5 Por – Utah just destroyed Portland, and Malone had 21-10 in only 31 minutes. His counterparts, Buck Williams and Harvey Grant, shot a combined 3-14 for Portland.
G5+6 Sea Facing elimination, Malone with two huge games (30.5 ppg 12.5 rap 4.5 apg)

1997
G4 LAL – Ahead 2-1, Malone just crushes lakers as he rebounds from a 2-20 game: 42 points, 9 rebounds.
G5 LAL – He finishes LA with a 32 point 20 rebound performance in G5 at home. Btw, you barely notice Shaquille O'Neal is playing for the Lakers when you watch the 4th Q and OT of that game, until a dunk at ~3 min. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_4i2ZZsUbk&NR=1) Malone with a jumper at 3:20 of OT after 2 FT's, then a fade with 90 seconds left over Campbell to make it 96-93, the final FG.
G3 Chi – Down 2-0, Malone responds with 37 poits an 10 boards (55% TS) back in Utah.

1998
G5 Hou – This time – perhaps because Hakeem is older? – Malone bests Houston with 31-15-5 virtuoso game.
G4 SAS – Again, up 2-1 Malone goes for 34-12-4 (17-28) in a game 4 after a bad G3 (6-21 shooting), this against the Spurs twin towers and top-rated defense. Avery Johnson described the game afterwards simply as, “Karl Malone.” Robinson said “Malone was as good as he could be shooting the ball.”
G5 Chi – Basically single-handedly carries Utah back home with 17-27 39-9-5 game, and was easily the best player on court that day. He hit the dagger shot in the final minute to secure an 80-76 lead. Jordan misses at buzzer. (Final 6 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-E9rmJPh5U&NR=1

In the Final 6 minutes: Malone is doubled which leads to a breakdown, and ultimately a Carr layup. On the next trip he is doubled and hits Carr for open J. Then Malone with a scoop over Rodman. At 2:00 left, another double leads to a hockey assist on another Carr J. Then the dagger over Rodman, and Costas says “Malone is personally pushing the series back to Utah.”

G6 v Chi – Has 31-11-7 and does seemingly everything, except infamously hold on to the ball on his final touch.

(Interesting note about the last 2 games– Malone with 70 of Utah's 149 points in final 2 games (47%!) on 65.4% TS 28-46, 14-17. Jordan with 73 of Chicago's 148 points (49%) on 24-61, 22-26 on 50.4% TS)

[ThaRegul8r]

That sums up my sentiments on the matter as well. Both are scorers, people talk about Malone being the second-leading scorer all-time, but if his ability to utilize that to help his team win was diminished in the postseason while another player demonstrated the "matchup independence" I talked about before, then that player has the edge. As I was thinking more about longevity, it's only relevant to me insofar as a player provides additional value with it.

Cmon... karl malone was still a beast in scoring in po. He averaged 26.4 ppg in po with jazz. Higher than his rs averages. His TS is worse than dirk because dirk is better in ft and 3pt but his fg% it's not better. Neither his rebounds or deffense.

I hear you on this, people act like Dirk is on a different level than Karl. I guess thats the case if one is obsessed with advanced stats and the fact that he has a ring. Because lets be real they have similar playoff success and Dirk wouldnt have beaten Mj either. I voted Moses but Karl is my next guy. Then Dirk after him.

One, I was merely voicing my current thoughts on the matter. I am not trying to convince anyone to do anything, as I couldn't care less. It's up to each person to make his own choice based on what they value.

Second, neither you nor the person you quoted know my criteria that I'm looking at. This is merely an example of tribalism, where you big up someone (who also has an impact on this list unlike me) who also thinks the way you do, and thus you come to the defense of another fellow ingroup member against a member of the outgroup with a different opinion. If you don't know my criteria, it's ignorant in the negative way to simply dismiss the outgroup member as "obsessed with advanced stats and the fact he has a ring" because you're ignorant when it comes to what I value, and in your ignorance presume to make a statement about what you don't know. I have West above both Dirk and Malone, and would do so whether he won in '72 or not, because of his consistent performance against the best teams of his era. I care about performance. I specifically have a criterion that ensures a player doesn't get penalized if he doesn't win if his performance doesn't warrant it. I've quoted it during the course of this project. So dismissing the outgroup member as "obsessed with rings" is uninformed and ignorant in the negative sense because you presumed to speak without knowledge.

[penbeast0]

[RayBan-Sematra]

Vote : Dirk

Moses was a beast but my grasp of him isn't that strong and I currently doubt his offensive impact was on the level of a guy like Dirk.
He seemed to be a guy who was pretty good on an individual level but didn't really excel at the team aspect of the game.
Then defensively when most people speak about him they don't say great things especially outside of one or two really good Peak years. If he was a strong defensive anchor the way some other ATG C's were then that would help his case.

[penbeast0]

That sums up my sentiments on the matter as well. Both are scorers, people talk about Malone being the second-leading scorer all-time, but if his ability to utilize that to help his team win was diminished in the postseason while another player demonstrated the "matchup independence" I talked about before, then that player has the edge. As I was thinking more about longevity, it's only relevant to me insofar as a player provides additional value with it.

Cmon... karl malone was still a beast in scoring in po. He averaged 26.4 ppg in po with jazz. Higher than his rs averages. His TS is worse than dirk because dirk is better in ft and 3pt but his fg% it's not better. Neither his rebounds or deffense.

I hear you on this, people act like Dirk is on a different level than Karl. I guess thats the case if one is obsessed with advanced stats and the fact that he has a ring. Because lets be real they have similar playoff success and Dirk wouldnt have beaten Mj either. I voted Moses but Karl is my next guy. Then Dirk after him.

I voted Dirk this time as I found the arguments from his supporters the most convincing. But it sure wasn't easy and I certainly wouldn't say he's "on a different level."

[ThaRegul8r]

Cmon... karl malone was still a beast in scoring in po. He averaged 26.4 ppg in po with jazz. Higher than his rs averages. His TS is worse than dirk because dirk is better in ft and 3pt but his fg% it's not better. Neither his rebounds or deffense.

I hear you on this, people act like Dirk is on a different level than Karl. I guess thats the case if one is obsessed with advanced stats and the fact that he has a ring. Because lets be real they have similar playoff success and Dirk wouldnt have beaten Mj either. I voted Moses but Karl is my next guy. Then Dirk after him.

I voted Dirk this time as I found the arguments from his supporters the most convincing. But it sure wasn't easy and I certainly wouldn't say he's "on a different level."

"It's not like Player X is on a different level!" is positing a false dichotomy that distracts from the real issue. It's like another false dichotomy when people are unable to think of players in any other terms than "The Man" and "sidekick/roleplayer."

One player doesn't have to be "on another level from another." All that's necessary is that one player better meets whatever it is people are using to judge players than another. I see people are counting votes because they want their guy to make it, and that's why people are coming to the aid of another like-minded voter to band together in solidarity. The only interest I have in this or any other project here is knowledge. To have more of it after reading the various arguments than I had before it. That's why I'm not participating in it so it won't be about making sure a certain guy gets voted in. Too many people have almost lost their minds because their guy wasn't where they have them on their list when that shouldn't be the point.

[Doctor MJ]

Runoff Vote: Dirk Nowitzki

While I completely understand people supporting Moses, I'm not as impressed with him as I am the other guys being brought up right now. I've mentioned it before, but I'm going to focus on something new here just for perspective.

I think there's a tendency to see Moses as a guy who hit prime in Houston and finished his prime in Philadelphia. Basically the team fell off in no small part because he was old.

In actuality he was 30.

Moses Malone changed teams 9 times, for those who don't know. It's really strange, because as you know, teams that recognize they have an all-time great talent tend to keep that talent and build around him. Moses is basically the only exception to this among guys discussed at this level.

Why is that? Well I'd encourage others to jump in on this.

Part of the issue I think clearly is that because Moses was a bit lacking in traditional 5 characteristics he was overrated.

Part of the issue is just bad management, and the 76ers certainly had that.

But let's look at what they saw at that moment:

Moses was no longer the team's leading rebounder. A 22-year old Barkley was beating him there.

You know in what other major stats Barkley had the edge? Everything basically. Technically Moses still scored more than Barkley just barely, but Barkley scored with far great efficiency to go along with his rebounding, assists, blocks, and steals edges.

So basically you had Moses at an age typically still considered prime, and in his signature realm of rebounding, he was in the way of someone better. Maybe it would have made sense to try to convert Moses into a role player at that point, but it's tough because again his obvious role playing skill (rebounding) is something completely covered by Barkley.

While that involves a relatively unlikely scenario, I think it also points to the reasons why teams had a tendency to move Moses alone: They had trouble slotting him in, rightly or wrongly.

Feel free to argue the "wrongly", but I don't think it's a coincidence that a guy with such a minimalist, 'tweener game bounced around more than the other guys we're talking about here.

Incidentally one might argue that since Dirk is very much tweener-ish he falls in that same bracket, but Dirk has a very intellectual game. At his best he was essentially playing a very effective volume scorer point forward. This marks him as being very different from Moses, and In general someone I'd feel more comfortable building around for the long term.

[Doctor MJ]

So yeah, I'm surprised that Karl missed the runoff. So that's the #13 runoff, and then the next 3 times he missed it. Pretty unusual.

I think first and foremost is the issue that a lot of us are holding back a bit in the first day of voting - and I'm using 'us' for a reason. I've been basically just chiming in without voting, and then voting in the runoff. I actually thought I was doing maybe a good thing by doing this...but when we have runoff participants being decided by 4-4-3 with others in the fray who would have been in the "3" camp had they gotten around to vote, it's an issue.

None of this is on beast. We all know the runoff system, and hopefully we all know that running this thing is a big inconvenience that he has to run around his schedule.

It's on us to do our bit to make sure our votes are in, to make it so that the pre-runoff is as meaningful as possible. So, I'll try to get more on the ball again in my voting going forward.

[penbeast0]

I found FJS's vote for Karl Malone that I missed earlier. That makes it a 3-way tie! What I will do (unless there are strong objections) is make it a 3-way runoff which means a plurality could actually win.

So vote for -- KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK

[ronnymac2]

Please ignore my runoff vote for Dirk Nowitzki. My final vote is for Karl Malone. Reasoning from Post #2 of this thread.