RealGM Top 100 List #23

[Narigo]

Vote: Steve Nash


Nash has been better than Wade in 2004, 2005, 2006(argubly), 2007 and 2008 while Wade has better from 2009 onwards. But the reason I choosing Nash is because longevity and dominance as a offensive player. Nash has anchored few of the best offensive team of all time.

Also, Nash has played at all-star level player from 2002- 2012 while Wade has played at a all-star level from 2005-2014.

Nash has been more healthier player from most of his prime while Wade had to sit out games because of his lingering injuries.

If Wade plays one more season at a all-star level then i will take him over Nash but right now, I have Nash ahead.

[tsherkin]

One thing on Hondo that people may or may not have pointed out, it's REALLY informative to look at the Per 100 numbers, because you might think of him as a real volume scorers in his '70s hey day, but this is a guy who was scoring only briefly at prime Pippen volume with pretty ugly efficiency. Great player, but you certainly would prefer not to be dependent on him as a huge part of your scoring scheme.

Should drop this out there, but he was above league average for his volume scoring peak. It wasn't brilliant stuff, and he had only one year of +2.0% or better deviation above league average (that first one), but it's not QUITE as bad as "pretty ugly efficiency," unless you are directly looking at his raw TS% without regard for league environment.

[Doctor MJ]

Wow, Nash and Kidd already getting mentions? I have Nash in my 30's and Kidd in the 40-50 range..
Nash is one of the greatest playmakers and shooters ever, good playoff performer, capable scorer and a defensive liability..

One of the best offensive playmakers/PG's ever, and during his MVP winning / peak years, had some of the best seasons of any PG ever. A member of the elite 50/40/90 club, certifying himself as one of the greatest shooters ever. Nash also had tremendous impact on a Phoenix Suns team, leading to his MVP's..
Nash would fit on most teams, he's an easy character, unselfish, a great leader and teammate, stuff you want to be, players you want to be surrounded with...

Won 2 controversial MVP's and as great as he played come post-season time, didn't pull off anything historic to get his team over the hump.

Kidd? Poor scorer/shooter, good vision/passer, solid defender, teams thriving in the worst conference/era of possibly ever. Definitely since the start of the modern era ('80's)

But for me he never really stood out.. Not a player I feel to make as much of a difference than a Isiah Thomas, Payton, Ewing, McAdoo or Frazier... I'd rank him a bit lower than Iverson.

Well as I read a lot of this, there isn't a lot of actual comparison here. If it's too early for Nash, who are all the guys ahead of him?

Now with Kidd, you do list specific guys. My take on those comparisons:

Kidd has longevity on Isiah, and Isiah's peak tends to get overrated with the championships. Those were defensive teams with no serious MVP level talent on them, yet Isiah gets remembered like he was.

Kidd vs Payton? Well, I think Payton's got a plenty good case there.

Ewing's obviously already in.

McAdoo is basically a guy with a Walton-esque career arc. His longevity as a star is tiny.

Kidd vs Frazier? Frazier's got a great case there, though you could argue for Kidd on longevity.

Iverson? Well, to me he doesn't belong in the conversation with any of these guys except possibly McAdoo.

For comparison, I'll submit the scaled RAPM stuff I work with:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... _web#gid=3

I do 5-Sum rating which takes each guys 5 best scores, and averages them, here's what each of the guys mentioned here scores on this, for those recent enough to have such a score:

Nash 7.91
Kidd 6.94
Payton 5.10 (only goes back to '98)
Iverson 2.54

When it comes to actually helping his team, Iverson is WAY below basically anyone else he was ever compared to among his contemporaries.

[DannyNoonan1221]

Vote: Havlicek

8-time champion.

Started as a great bench player for the Russell dyansty but was still a reasonably big minute guy. Kind of the father of the 6th man role we have seen become a regular part of the NBA to this day.

Then became one of the focal players of the next generation of Celtics champions.

Iron man. 20k more minutes than Wade to this point for example and all of them at a good or great level. Played nearly every game and could handle tons of minutes.

Had a reputation as a good defender

Finals MVP in 1974

Tremendous all-around game.

And of course:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4fTjcJwImw[/youtube]

Reminds me of Pippen stealing the inbound in 1997 to seal the deal (the play after Jordan passing it to Kerr for the game winning 3).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTWdhAeCKYs

I swear man, those game 6's HAUNT me, the Jazz were ahead in the last couple of seconds in both 1997 and 1998's game 6. One of those series could of certainly gone to game 7, especially 1998 with the Ron Harper shot that shouldn't have counted and the Eisley (or Anderson, I forgot) 3 that they didn't count.

But they didn't.......... GO BULLS


hahaha just giving you a hard time.

[tsherkin]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... _web#gid=3

I do 5-Sum rating which takes each guys 5 best scores, and averages them, here's what each of the guys mentioned here scores on this, for those recent enough to have such a score:

Iverson 7.91
Kidd 6.94
Payton 5.10 (only goes back to '98)
Iverson 2.54

When it comes to actually helping his team, Iverson is WAY below basically anyone else he was ever compared to among his contemporaries.

I gather this is supposed to be Isiah at the top of that list?

[DannyNoonan1221]

Reminds me of Pippen stealing the inbound in 1997 to seal the deal (the play after Jordan passing it to Kerr for the game winning 3).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTWdhAeCKYs

I swear man, those game 6's HAUNT me, the Jazz were ahead in the last couple of seconds in both 1997 and 1998's game 6. One of those series could of certainly gone to game 7, especially 1998 with the Ron Harper shot that shouldn't have counted and the Eisley (or Anderson, I forgot) 3 that they didn't count.

Yup, I'd forgotten some of that context. There was also the very blatant and obvious push on Bryon Russell in g6 '98 that didn't get called.
I was a die-hard Bulls fan at the time, very much thrilled that the Bulls won again and again. But with the lack of title being such a big black-mark for both Stockton and Malone in projects like this, it's good to recall some of that context: one or two calls go a different way and maybe we'd have a different outcome for the series (and perhaps an entirely different perception for the two of them).

I have to disagree with a "blatant and obvious push" stuff though. First of all, everyone wants to watch that play in slow mo from all different angles. Just watch the play in real time and notice Russell's reaction. Doesn't even start to THINK about talking to the ref about anything. Secondly, Jordan's hand, while making contact, does not do much of pushing. Russell's hips have already completely turned before contact has made and his hand is lower than his hips. It is difficult to really impact an athlete such as an NBA player in that situation without pushing on the hips directly.

[Doctor MJ]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... _web#gid=3

I do 5-Sum rating which takes each guys 5 best scores, and averages them, here's what each of the guys mentioned here scores on this, for those recent enough to have such a score:

Iverson 7.91
Kidd 6.94
Payton 5.10 (only goes back to '98)
Iverson 2.54

When it comes to actually helping his team, Iverson is WAY below basically anyone else he was ever compared to among his contemporaries.

I gather this is supposed to be Isiah at the top of that list?

D'oh! No that's Nash. Fixed it now.

[tsherkin]

Wilt looks PONDEROUS out there, wow... Lateral movement sucks, end to end not really happening. Quick ups, though. You can see some small bursts of movement here and there, but he's generally just kind of floating. Good base; brings the ball down too low a lot of the time into that deep squat he seemed to like so much and yeah, he looks awful whenever he shoots the ball. He's thrown that finger roll up a couple of times to no avail and pulled a fadeaway that missed as well. He fakes passes pretty well and he holds his position to look for cutters and shooters pretty well, though. He gets position very, very well; basically impossible to deny him, so any time LA gets the ball into him, they have a pretty good possession. In fact, outside of West in the secondary break, Wilt in the halfcourt seems to be their best option. Baylor seems to do nothing but take jumpers out of a cross screen at the foul line. New York has a pretty beautiful passing game.

It's kind of funny listening to the announcers, because they're really surprised that Frazier as a point of attack (compared to Reed) has been so effective. It's worth noting that while Frazier was a ~ 21 ppg player in the RS, he scored 16 ppg in the playoffs that season. 19 in the 7-game series vs the Bullets, 9.6 vs the Bucks and then 17.6 vs the Lakers (but keeping in mind that he dropped 14.5 over the first 6 and then 36 in G7). Very interesting.

TOOOOTALLY forgot that they jumped tip each quarter back then.

West did have a left hand when he needed it, but it was so much easier to go right when his opponents didn't take it away. He guard-posted on the left block a lot, and well. Good fakes, too. Wilt had really, really bad handles in the post.

Anyway, that's basically what I see out of that game. Frazier wasn't in position to really show on-ball D a lot, so it's hard to really get a feel for things beyond that he was proficient and gave effort in all facets of defense. Great game on O, and a few other things that surprised me about some of the other players, most of which I've noted here or in the previous post.

[Doctor MJ]

Wilt looks PONDEROUS out there, wow... Lateral movement sucks, end to end not really happening. Quick ups, though. You can see some small bursts of movement here and there, but he's generally just kind of floating. Good base; brings the ball down too low a lot of the time into that deep squat he seemed to like so much and yeah, he looks awful whenever he shoots the ball. He's thrown that finger roll up a couple of times to no avail and pulled a fadeaway that missed as well. He fakes passes pretty well and he holds his position to look for cutters and shooters pretty well, though. He gets position very, very well; basically impossible to deny him, so any time LA gets the ball into him, they have a pretty good possession. In fact, outside of West in the secondary break, Wilt in the halfcourt seems to be their best option. Baylor seems to do nothing but take jumpers out of a cross screen at the foul line. New York has a pretty beautiful passing game.

It's kind of funny listening to the announcers, because they're really surprised that Frazier as a point of attack (compared to Reed) has been so effective. It's worth noting that while Frazier was a ~ 21 ppg player in the RS, he scored 16 ppg in the playoffs that season. 19 in the 7-game series vs the Bullets, 9.6 vs the Bucks and then 17.6 vs the Lakers (but keeping in mind that he dropped 14.5 over the first 6 and then 36 in G7). Very interesting.

TOOOOTALLY forgot that they jumped tip each quarter back then.

West did have a left hand when he needed it, but it was so much easier to go right when his opponents didn't take it away. He guard-posted on the left block a lot, and well. Good fakes, too. Wilt had really, really bad handles in the post.

Anyway, that's basically what I see out of that game. Frazier wasn't in position to really show on-ball D a lot, so it's hard to really get a feel for things beyond that he was proficient and gave effort in all facets of defense. Great game on O, and a few other things that surprised me about some of the other players, most of which I've noted here or in the previous post.

Wait, what are you watching? Sounds like the 1970 Finals, and a bit like Game 7 except there are other things that definitely seem NOT like Game 7.

[trex_8063]

Anyone have a vote-count at this point? I believe we're like an hour from run-off time; Wade clearly appears to be one of the run-off participants, but not sure who the other is.

[tsherkin]

Wilt looks PONDEROUS out there, wow... Lateral movement sucks, end to end not really happening. Quick ups, though. You can see some small bursts of movement here and there, but he's generally just kind of floating. Good base; brings the ball down too low a lot of the time into that deep squat he seemed to like so much and yeah, he looks awful whenever he shoots the ball. He's thrown that finger roll up a couple of times to no avail and pulled a fadeaway that missed as well. He fakes passes pretty well and he holds his position to look for cutters and shooters pretty well, though. He gets position very, very well; basically impossible to deny him, so any time LA gets the ball into him, they have a pretty good possession. In fact, outside of West in the secondary break, Wilt in the halfcourt seems to be their best option. Baylor seems to do nothing but take jumpers out of a cross screen at the foul line. New York has a pretty beautiful passing game.

It's kind of funny listening to the announcers, because they're really surprised that Frazier as a point of attack (compared to Reed) has been so effective. It's worth noting that while Frazier was a ~ 21 ppg player in the RS, he scored 16 ppg in the playoffs that season. 19 in the 7-game series vs the Bullets, 9.6 vs the Bucks and then 17.6 vs the Lakers (but keeping in mind that he dropped 14.5 over the first 6 and then 36 in G7). Very interesting.

TOOOOTALLY forgot that they jumped tip each quarter back then.

West did have a left hand when he needed it, but it was so much easier to go right when his opponents didn't take it away. He guard-posted on the left block a lot, and well. Good fakes, too. Wilt had really, really bad handles in the post.

Anyway, that's basically what I see out of that game. Frazier wasn't in position to really show on-ball D a lot, so it's hard to really get a feel for things beyond that he was proficient and gave effort in all facets of defense. Great game on O, and a few other things that surprised me about some of the other players, most of which I've noted here or in the previous post.

Wait, what are you watching? Sounds like the 1970 Finals, and a bit like Game 7 except there are other things that definitely seem NOT like Game 7.

Yeah, game 7. First half observations only, though. And obviously Elgin did a lot more than I said, it was just somehing they ran a lot before their offensive focus shifted away from him. Frazier was on Garrett, Barnett was on West, and the forwards were sdvancin the ball against the press a lot.

[ronnymac2]

Wilt looks PONDEROUS out there, wow... Lateral movement sucks, end to end not really happening. Quick ups, though. You can see some small bursts of movement here and there, but he's generally just kind of floating. Good base; brings the ball down too low a lot of the time into that deep squat he seemed to like so much and yeah, he looks awful whenever he shoots the ball. He's thrown that finger roll up a couple of times to no avail and pulled a fadeaway that missed as well. He fakes passes pretty well and he holds his position to look for cutters and shooters pretty well, though. He gets position very, very well; basically impossible to deny him, so any time LA gets the ball into him, they have a pretty good possession. In fact, outside of West in the secondary break, Wilt in the halfcourt seems to be their best option. Baylor seems to do nothing but take jumpers out of a cross screen at the foul line. New York has a pretty beautiful passing game.

It's kind of funny listening to the announcers, because they're really surprised that Frazier as a point of attack (compared to Reed) has been so effective. It's worth noting that while Frazier was a ~ 21 ppg player in the RS, he scored 16 ppg in the playoffs that season. 19 in the 7-game series vs the Bullets, 9.6 vs the Bucks and then 17.6 vs the Lakers (but keeping in mind that he dropped 14.5 over the first 6 and then 36 in G7). Very interesting.

TOOOOTALLY forgot that they jumped tip each quarter back then.

West did have a left hand when he needed it, but it was so much easier to go right when his opponents didn't take it away. He guard-posted on the left block a lot, and well. Good fakes, too. Wilt had really, really bad handles in the post.

Anyway, that's basically what I see out of that game. Frazier wasn't in position to really show on-ball D a lot, so it's hard to really get a feel for things beyond that he was proficient and gave effort in all facets of defense. Great game on O, and a few other things that surprised me about some of the other players, most of which I've noted here or in the previous post.

Wait, what are you watching? Sounds like the 1970 Finals, and a bit like Game 7 except there are other things that definitely seem NOT like Game 7.

Yeah, game 7. First half observations only, though. And obviously Elgin did a lot more than I said, it was just somehing they ran a lot before their offensive focus shifted away from him. Frazier was on Garrett, Barnett was on West, and the forwards were sdvancin the ball against the press a lot.

Can you confirm that at some point in that game — I want to say the early stages of the 4th quarter — Baylor does this move where he dribbles at the top of the key, jumps in the air at around 18 feet away, fakes a shot with one hand, brings the ball back, and shoots with one hand for the made field goal? I can't find it anywhere, but I think that's the game he did it in.

[penbeast0]

Looks like a runoff between Dwyane Wade and George Mikan . . . peak v peak time

NASH -- Narigo, colts18

HAVLICEK -- Chuck Texas

BAYLOR -- ShaqAttack3234

MIKAN -- batmana, Quotatious, DQuinn1575

STOCKTON -- FJS

FRAZIER -- penbeast0

WADE (7) -- JordansBulls, DannyNoonan1221, trex_8063, lukekarts, ronnymac2, SactoKingsFan, Baketballefan

Not sure if Moonbeam is voting for Wade or not

[tsherkin]

I haven't voted yet and planned to vote for Nash, so that gives him as many votes as Mikan, no? Or have I missed the deadline?

[tsherkin]

Can you confirm that at some point in that game — I want to say the early stages of the 4th quarter — Baylor does this move where he dribbles at the top of the key, jumps in the air at around 18 feet away, fakes a shot with one hand, brings the ball back, and shoots with one hand for the made field goal? I can't find it anywhere, but I think that's the game he did it in.

I will keep an eye out for this. Haven't reached the second half yet. I rewatch chunks of the game at a time to get better looks at different parts of the floor, you know?

[Basketballefan]

Looks like a runoff between Dwyane Wade and George Mikan . . . peak v peak time

NASH -- Narigo, colts18

HAVLICEK -- Chuck Texas

BAYLOR -- ShaqAttack3234

MIKAN -- batmana, Quotatious, DQuinn1575

STOCKTON -- FJS

FRAZIER -- penbeast0

WADE (7) -- JordansBulls, DannyNoonan1221, trex_8063, lukekarts, ronnymac2, SactoKingsFan, Baketballefan

Not sure if Moonbeam is voting for Wade or not

It seems like Moonbeam did vote Wade but that's up for you to decide or him. Ray Ban was leaning Wade as well but it didn't appear like an official vote.

[Doctor MJ]

Wilt looks PONDEROUS out there, wow... Lateral movement sucks, end to end not really happening. Quick ups, though. You can see some small bursts of movement here and there, but he's generally just kind of floating. Good base; brings the ball down too low a lot of the time into that deep squat he seemed to like so much and yeah, he looks awful whenever he shoots the ball. He's thrown that finger roll up a couple of times to no avail and pulled a fadeaway that missed as well. He fakes passes pretty well and he holds his position to look for cutters and shooters pretty well, though. He gets position very, very well; basically impossible to deny him, so any time LA gets the ball into him, they have a pretty good possession. In fact, outside of West in the secondary break, Wilt in the halfcourt seems to be their best option. Baylor seems to do nothing but take jumpers out of a cross screen at the foul line. New York has a pretty beautiful passing game.

It's kind of funny listening to the announcers, because they're really surprised that Frazier as a point of attack (compared to Reed) has been so effective. It's worth noting that while Frazier was a ~ 21 ppg player in the RS, he scored 16 ppg in the playoffs that season. 19 in the 7-game series vs the Bullets, 9.6 vs the Bucks and then 17.6 vs the Lakers (but keeping in mind that he dropped 14.5 over the first 6 and then 36 in G7). Very interesting.

TOOOOTALLY forgot that they jumped tip each quarter back then.

West did have a left hand when he needed it, but it was so much easier to go right when his opponents didn't take it away. He guard-posted on the left block a lot, and well. Good fakes, too. Wilt had really, really bad handles in the post.

Anyway, that's basically what I see out of that game. Frazier wasn't in position to really show on-ball D a lot, so it's hard to really get a feel for things beyond that he was proficient and gave effort in all facets of defense. Great game on O, and a few other things that surprised me about some of the other players, most of which I've noted here or in the previous post.

Wait, what are you watching? Sounds like the 1970 Finals, and a bit like Game 7 except there are other things that definitely seem NOT like Game 7.

Yeah, game 7. First half observations only, though. And obviously Elgin did a lot more than I said, it was just somehing they ran a lot before their offensive focus shifted away from him. Frazier was on Garrett, Barnett was on West, and the forwards were sdvancin the ball against the press a lot.

Okay, Interesting. My takeaways from that game:

First and foremost, New York just got hot. There's a lot of interesting stuff in the game that's meaningful and informative, but New York doesn't normally shoot like that. Frazier's obviously the key man for that, and that's why he won Finals MVP (or he should have anyway).

On the other side of the ball that amazing thing was how impotent Wilt was. Whenever he got any serious man defense on him, he typically either got the ball stolen or he passed the ball back out to start the possession over. (There were also some fouls, but Wilt's free throw shooting was like he wasn't even trying to make it.) It's astonishing the difference between watching him and watching Kareem. Kareem would face tougher defense and still drain the shot where Wilt would give up. it would be one thing if this was a game where the Lakers wanted someone else to lead the offense, but the Lakers were all in saying "Wilt, Reed's a shell of himself, win it for us", and he just couldn't. That's not to say Wilt gave nothing. He was awesome on the boards and the put backs, but anything else he was killing his club.

So with regards to Baylor, it makes it hard to judge him. I often criticize him for taking on a primacy he shouldn't have but that's not how it was in this game.

Also of note was the Knicks' swarming defense earlier in the series let by Frazier. It would come on all of a sudden and West & co didn't know what to do. Frankly to me it's the most damning thing I've ever seen relating to West, because it's hard to imagine a modern team being so flummoxed by press, but there was no denying how effective what the Knicks were doing was on both sides of the ball. They were way beyond the other teams of the time and if healthy I think they win considerably more than 2 titles.

[DQuinn1575]

Looks like a runoff between Dwyane Wade and George Mikan . . . peak v peak time

NASH -- Narigo, colts18

HAVLICEK -- Chuck Texas

BAYLOR -- ShaqAttack3234

MIKAN -- batmana, Quotatious, DQuinn1575

STOCKTON -- FJS

FRAZIER -- penbeast0

WADE (7) -- JordansBulls, DannyNoonan1221, trex_8063, lukekarts, ronnymac2, SactoKingsFan, Baketballefan

Not sure if Moonbeam is voting for Wade or not

Both Quotatious and I were asking if we could make this a shot clock only vote now, as it appears we may be stuck in a series of runoffs that Mikan would lose.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924&start=380

If so, I would switch my vote to Wade, who I have next. Otherwise I will keep voting Mikan, as I believe he is the most deserving player left.

[tsherkin]

First and foremost, New York just got hot. There's a lot of interesting stuff in the game that's meaningful and informative, but New York doesn't normally shoot like that. Frazier's obviously the key man for that, and that's why he won Finals MVP (or he should have anyway).

Yeah, I can't fault that. They shot like 67% or something ridiculous through the first quarter.

On the other side of the ball that amazing thing was how impotent Wilt was. Whenever he got any serious man defense on him, he typically either got the ball stolen or he passed the ball back out to start the possession over.

Like I said, he had crap handles in the post, basically never dribbled with his left hand, brought the ball unnecessarily low for no reason and used that stupid right-handed finger roll... ever. It was a terrible shot and it had no touch, so it wasn't going in. He looked AWFUL in the portions I've watched so far. Got GREAT position, Shaq-like position, but did nothing with it for most of the time. Rebounded very well. New York was killing from outside, but Reed was also pulling Wilt away from the rim, which didn't help L.A.'s defense.

So with regards to Baylor, it makes it hard to judge him. I often criticize him for taking on a primacy he shouldn't have but that's not how it was in this game.

It didn't feel like Baylor was over-shooting at all in the first half of this game. I barely noticed him after the first few minutes, when L.A.'s offense kind of went off of the rails against New York's press. I'll rewatch the first half now and track the game for some guys.

[Texas Chuck]

Run-Off Vote: George Mikan

I'll admit that Mikan is a very tough guy for me to place because of all the reasons(except pure racial ones) that have been mentioned in the last few threads.

But I also feel like its considerably too soon for Dwayne Wade. I would have been open to listening to some more honest analysis of him as opposed to marketing posts, but what little there was didn't really lift my opinion of him.

Mikan was the clear best player in the league multiple times.

Dominant Champion

Multiple rules had to be changed as a result of his dominance.

His play against the Globetrotter should forever remove the terrible racial argument made against him and I never hold it against a guy that the game wasn't as popular then as now.