Better All Around Player: Tim Duncan vs Hakeem Olajuwon

[dhsilv2]

One can not say Hakeem is not as good in the playoffs as Duncan. Hakeems playoff stats are probably the second highest of any player ever (before they started inflating stats in the last 3 years) But even then he's still probably second best because I think Steals and Blocks mean a lot. Like someone averaging 4 blocks in the playoffs is like the equivalent of someone averaging 30 ppg. And he did both.

Basically every playoff game he played in his prime and I'm going by just watching the league and remembering( not looking it up because that gets old and by memory is where you separate those that know the game and don't anyway usually) Hakeem was 26 ppg 13 rebounds, 4 blocks, 1.6 steals, 3.5 assists, on 51% shooting for his playoff prime from 85-97.

Duncan was more like 23 ppg (inflated by 2-3 rigged series) 13 rebounds, 3 blocks, .9 steals, and 3.5 assits. on 51% shooting.

Hakeem's stats are better and he was doing that against real All Time greats every series like Kareem, Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Kemp, Shaq, and Ewing.

You ignore that I was making a clear point that Duncan was much more valuable in the regular season. Winning on the road because you didn't win in the regular season isn't something to brag about in my book.

And why are stats now inflated? Duncan's stats came up when the league was at the slowest pace I can remember and his team was by no means pushing pace. And he inflated his stats in a few series? When did Duncan EVER inflate his numbers? The guy simply didn't care about his stats.

Since you used through age 34. Per 100

Duncan 31.2 17 4.7 3.5 1
Hakeem 34.4 14.6 4.3 4.3 2.2

I'll give that sample to Hakeem, but there's a LOT more games played by Duncan in there. I'll let you debate who faced better defenders.

You make good points and it's good conversating with you. I know about Duncan's regular seasons success and also his playoff success. I always wanted the Spurs to win a Back to Back.

I think one of the major factors that helped Duncan was the fact that the spurs always went with two 7 footers in the starting lineup every season. This allowed for more rebounds and also allowed Duncan to pick the PF or center he wanted to be able to guard easier.

I noticed the Rockets had a lot of success when they had twin towers aswell. Also even with Thorpe who was one of the biggest and more physical PF's of that era.

How does having 2 bigs help him get rebounds? It also meant that Duncan had to be more mobile and able to guard multiple positions. Something of course either of these two could do. Though often at end of game it was Manu in place of a big and guys like Rose and Blair were hardly 7 footers despite playing the "center" next to Duncan.

[Coleman]

He was a clever passer in traffic. Just like he was a clever scorer in traffic. He had great footwork to trick the defense and pass off underneath on a spin move or pass out for a wide open jumper. He won BACK TO BACK Championships in the Golden Era. Give the man some respect. Duncan was a good passer out of the high post passing into the low post. Also a pretty ok out let passer.

Also I'm not the only one you have heard say that. If you watch any game in the 90's on NBC or TNT they would say Hakeem was a great passing center about every 20 minutes. Also Horry has said this too. Bill Walton was one that always went on about Hakeem's Passing. So did Steve Snapper Jones. Aswell as Marv Albert.

He's actually considered by many that know the game to be the best center ever or best 7 footer ever. Eventhough he was really about 6'10 1/2 or 6'11.

[dhsilv2]

You seem biased against Hakeem. Hakeem was always around 3.5 assists to 4.5 assists. He was a very smooth passer, great passer in traffic and pretty good out let passer and high post passer. Maybe Duncan was the better high post passer but mainly because that was the offense that the Spurs played and Duncan was 7 feet a little bigger than Hakeem mind you and passing over 6'8 PF's for much of his career.

Duncan played more like Ewing overall. But even then he wasn't as physical as Ewing or didn't spring up as high off the ground as Ewing, few did. Also Ewing had a better jumpshot.

I'm a big Duncan fan and think his longevity is up their with Jordan, Malone, and Kareem. But I'll be honest the league rigged a few series for the spurs against the Suns and Mavs in the early 2000's and mid 2000's. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 questionable calls. Why the NBA rigs certain series is a different topic.

Also Duncan always had a lot of trouble against Shaq. He would let Shaq throw him around too much. That didn't happen to Hakeem. Hakeem lit him up

Duncan didn't really have more troubles against Shaq than Hakeem. He was really effective at defending O'Neal. You might be suprised but when you watch it closely, he really limited Shaq post game.

True I thought he would do well, he did have a great help inside with David Robinson however.

One can say Duncan has Hakeem on longevity.

A lot of people top 5 all time has Hakeem in it. not as many has Duncan in it. Like take Jordan's top 5. Hakeem, Worthy, Pippen, Jordan and I believe he said Magic.

Can you show me a single list with Hakeem in the top 5 by credible people? Duncan was 5 on this boards list just done. ESPN just ranked him 8th, ahead of Hakeem. Bill Simmons has Duncan 7th and that was written in 2011, Hakeem isn't top 10. 2011 SLAM 500 Duncan was 8th and Hakeem 13. BleacherSports did a list in 15, Ducan was 5th Hakeem was 14th.

[dhsilv2]

He was a clever passer in traffic. Just like he was a clever scorer in traffic. He had great footwork to trick the defense and pass off underneath on a spin move or pass out for a wide open jumper. He won BACK TO BACK Championships in the Golden Era. Give the man some respect. Duncan was a good passer out of the high post passing into the low post. Also a pretty ok out let passer.

Also I'm not the only one you have heard say that. If you watch any game in the 90's on NBC or TNT they would say Hakeem was a great passing center about every 20 minutes. Also Horry has said this too. Bill Walton was one that always went on about Hakeem's Passing. So did Steve Snapper Jones. Aswell as Marv Albert.

He's actually considered by many that know the game to be the best center ever or best 7 footer ever. Eventhough he was really about 6'10 1/2 or 6'11.

I'll stand by that's just not what people thought of him. Just not at all.

Well that passing part or best center (nobody has him over Kareem). He was good. I want to vomit everytime I hear "golden era" though. And he won 2 titles absolutely after the "golden era" by anyone I've heard talk about it. Nobody includes MJ's retired years.

[Coleman]

I wouldn't call SLAM credible. I've seen Jordans top 5 and also others like Kobe's and even Shaqs and they all have Hakeem in the top 5 all time. I wouldn't call ESPN credible. I've heard others I believe like Horry we already talked about he is credible. The guy has 7 RINGS. I think he knew about basketball. But also I've heard Horace Grant call Hakeem the best center ever.

Litterally Bill Walton was saying that what Hakeem did from basically 93-95 was the second greatest run ever for a player, then he said it's the greatest run ever for a 7 footer. He said that many times and Steve Snapper Jones, Marv Albert or whoever else was there calling the games didn't have anything to say against it and actually they agreed.

[Coleman]

I have him over Kareem. Kareem was great at like 1 thing. Also he had longevity. Akeem was great at a whole multitude of things.

[dhsilv2]

I wouldn't call SLAM credible. I've seen Jordans top 5 and also others like Kobe's and even Shaqs and they all have Hakeem in the top 5 all time. I wouldn't call ESPN credible. I've heard others I believe like Horry we already talked about he is credible. The guy has 7 RINGS. I think he knew about basketball. But also I've heard Horace Grant call Hakeem the best center ever.

Litterally Bill Walton was saying that what Hakeem did from basically 93-95 was the second greatest run ever for a player, then he said it's the greatest run ever for a 7 footer. He said that many times and Steve Snapper Jones, Marv Albert or whoever else was there calling the games didn't have anything to say against it and actually they agreed.

So you don't have a source that has actually put together a comprehensive list, but you're taking random praise by people who are always praising people in the moment. And if you have Hakeem over a 6 time MVP and 5 time champ in kareem I'm not sure what to tell you. There just isn't a case.

[Coleman]

You do know that Hakeem was basically putting up over a 3 year period in the best defensive era ever on the best 7 footers ever 28ppg, 13 rebounds, 5 blocks 5 assists 2 steals on 50%shooting for three full seasons and three full Playoffs. (Up in seattle in Game 7 the Sonics got a few very favorable calls late in the 4th). There is a decent chance the Hakeem Led Rockets go to the Finals if not for those calls and faces the Bulls in 1993.

I could find video of it, and it would take awhile, Also someone would have to show me how to crop video and post it on here.

When they're about the same I take the Athlete because people forget Basketball is an ATHLETIC COMPETITION. Hakeem always beat Kareem in head to head even though Lakers had the better team probably.

[Coleman]

Hakeem being a two leg leaper made him a better shot blocker and rebounder than Kareem. Kareem got most all his blocks because he was about 7'3. Also that is how he got a lot of his rebounds. Hakeem was blocking more at 6'11, rebounding more as well and had better foot work in the post and tricks.

[dhsilv2]

Kareem's prime was before hakeem entered the league. And what's with all this "best era" stuff....can we please just not do that. And all this athletic stuff? Basketball is as much about being smart as it is about being athletic. Duncan for example learned that blocked shots aren't of any more value than an altered miss and without jumping, you have a better chance at the rebound. So why was Hakeem two foot leaping? Couldn't he have altered the shot and then added rebounds?

[Coleman]

Kareem's prime was before hakeem entered the league. And what's with all this "best era" stuff....can we please just not do that. And all this athletic stuff? Basketball is as much about being smart as it is about being athletic. Duncan for example learned that blocked shots aren't of any more value than an altered miss and without jumping, you have a better chance at the rebound. So why was Hakeem two foot leaping? Couldn't he have altered the shot and then added rebounds?

They're both top 10 type players. They're both about the same so it's just personal preference. I think Hakeem would out player Tim Duncan in a game of one on one or 5 on 5. That's really all it comes down to. Hakeem would win if they were both called PFs. If Hakeem was called a PF then it would be him that everyone says is the best PF ever. They were calling Duncan the best PF ever when Jordan retired becausue they were trying to hype a new star and help the league.

Yes there are differences between eras and sometimes they are big differences. Like today there is very little set defenses.

[dhsilv2]

Kareem's prime was before hakeem entered the league. And what's with all this "best era" stuff....can we please just not do that. And all this athletic stuff? Basketball is as much about being smart as it is about being athletic. Duncan for example learned that blocked shots aren't of any more value than an altered miss and without jumping, you have a better chance at the rebound. So why was Hakeem two foot leaping? Couldn't he have altered the shot and then added rebounds?

They're both top 10 type players. They're both about the same so it's just personal preference. I think Hakeem would out player Tim Duncan in a game of one on one or 5 on 5. That's really all it comes down to. Hakeem would win if they were both called PFs. If Hakeem was called a PF then it would be him that everyone says is the best PF ever. They were calling Duncan the best PF ever when Jordan retired becausue they were trying to hype a new star and help the league.

Yes there are differences between eras and sometimes they are big differences. Like today there is very little set defenses.

What is a set defense to you? From a system and coaching stand point defense is the most complex it has ever been.

We'll just have to disagree on Duncan and Hakeem. Hakeem is maybe a top 10 player and that's not a sure thing. Duncan is unquestionably a top 10 guy and likely top 5.

[Coleman]

A set defense needs 3 post players on defense in the lower defensive box and key. So setup in that 16 by 10 area under at the rim.

[Coleman]

Kareem's prime was before hakeem entered the league. And what's with all this "best era" stuff....can we please just not do that. And all this athletic stuff? Basketball is as much about being smart as it is about being athletic. Duncan for example learned that blocked shots aren't of any more value than an altered miss and without jumping, you have a better chance at the rebound. So why was Hakeem two foot leaping? Couldn't he have altered the shot and then added rebounds?

They're both top 10 type players. They're both about the same so it's just personal preference. I think Hakeem would out player Tim Duncan in a game of one on one or 5 on 5. That's really all it comes down to. Hakeem would win if they were both called PFs. If Hakeem was called a PF then it would be him that everyone says is the best PF ever. They were calling Duncan the best PF ever when Jordan retired becausue they were trying to hype a new star and help the league.

Yes there are differences between eras and sometimes they are big differences. Like today there is very little set defenses.

What is a set defense to you? From a system and coaching stand point defense is the most complex it has ever been.

We'll just have to disagree on Duncan and Hakeem. Hakeem is maybe a top 10 player and that's not a sure thing. Duncan is unquestionably a top 10 guy and likely top 5.

Which do you value more Talent/Prime or Longevity? I think I know the answer. I value Prime higher. I put prime and Talent higher than most.

It is a FACT that Hakeem was quicker, Faster, Jumped higher, better second effort leaper, better spin moves, better footwork, better inside game, better short mid range game, better mid range game, better dunker, better defender, better at steals, better at deflections, better at defending PnR. Better at defending PG's and SF's. Better at lighting up Hof Centers.

The only player in history that some out there think could maybe beat Jordan in a series. (I'm not necessarily one of those but I do think he's the only one in Western History or Finals history that could take Jordan to 7 games. Better long range shooter, better dribbler, better passer, better everything. But Houston had 4 players they drafted all get kicked out of the league for cocaine use during the 80's and early 90's and that hurt their playoff success somewhat. So if you want to blame him for that then I guess you can. He should've been a better leader with those players.

[dhsilv2]

They're both top 10 type players. They're both about the same so it's just personal preference. I think Hakeem would out player Tim Duncan in a game of one on one or 5 on 5. That's really all it comes down to. Hakeem would win if they were both called PFs. If Hakeem was called a PF then it would be him that everyone says is the best PF ever. They were calling Duncan the best PF ever when Jordan retired becausue they were trying to hype a new star and help the league.

Yes there are differences between eras and sometimes they are big differences. Like today there is very little set defenses.

What is a set defense to you? From a system and coaching stand point defense is the most complex it has ever been.

We'll just have to disagree on Duncan and Hakeem. Hakeem is maybe a top 10 player and that's not a sure thing. Duncan is unquestionably a top 10 guy and likely top 5.

Which do you value more Talent/Prime or Longevity? I think I know the answer. I value Prime higher. I put prime and Talent higher than most.

It is a FACT that Hakeem was quicker, Faster, Jumped higher, better second effort leaper, better spin moves, better footwork, better inside game, better short mid range game, better mid range game, better dunker, better defender, better at steals, better at deflections, better at defending PnR. Better at defending PG's and SF's. Better at lighting up Hof Centers.

The only player in history that some out there think could maybe beat Jordan in a series. (I'm not necessarily one of those but I do think he's the only one in Western History or Finals history that could take Jordan to 7 games. Better long range shooter, better dribbler, better passer, better everything. But Houston had 4 players they drafted all get kicked out of the league for cocaine use during the 80's and early 90's and that hurt their playoff success somewhat. So if you want to blame him for that then I guess you can. He should've been a better leader with those players.

I don't think talent means anything. I value peak, prime, and don't value longevity a whole lot. I do however value awards and honors. Not sure why talent is even listed here...I care what they did not what they could have done.

I won't even argue with your "FACTS" which are full of incorrect statements.

[dhsilv2]

A set defense needs 3 post players on defense in the lower defensive box and key. So setup in that 16 by 10 area under at the rim.

So how do you deal with it was required man to man, defensive locations were dictated by the offense.

[r0drig0lac]

on this topic I just learned that Spurs had playoff series completely manipulated in their favor and Duncan is only considered the best PF ever and one of the top 5-8 players in history because the league wanted to create a new star.

going 2-2 against two top 10 ATG together (Kobe and Shaq, Duncan did not play the playoffs in 2000) and leading a team to 4 titles in their first 8 career playoffs were apparently not enough.

[Coleman]

They were all calling Tim Duncan the best PF ever in 1999. how does anyone know that after just 3 seasons? Seemed a little disingenuous. Also he was going against an 8th seed without their best player in a gimmick lock out season. The NBA pushed Duncan several times because they were trying to push a clean choir boy image from 99-05.. He would average about 25 FT per game vs Dampier who was a pretty good defender. The Refs just hated Mark Cuban so they were going to give Tim Duncan all the free throws.

Hakeem did it without FREE throws and also won BACK TO BACK. Duncan never played centers like Robinson, who was considered the best center ever at the time and best defensive player ever. Ewing, O'neal.

the only top all time great center Duncan played against was Oneal but Robinson was defending him.

[Coleman]

A set defense needs 3 post players on defense in the lower defensive box and key. So setup in that 16 by 10 area under at the rim.

So how do you deal with it was required man to man, defensive locations were dictated by the offense.

You do it how all of them do It including Popovich and your favorite player Tim Duncan did it. You stand in the lane anyway. The refs will not call it. It's a stupid rule and the refs know it. Tim Duncan stood in the lane when his guy he was guarding was Love, or bosh. Let Kevin Love have a field day on the three point line because he'll only go like 2-8 and will hurt his team shooting bad shots from the corner

[dhsilv2]

A set defense needs 3 post players on defense in the lower defensive box and key. So setup in that 16 by 10 area under at the rim.

So how do you deal with it was required man to man, defensive locations were dictated by the offense.

You do it how all of them do It including Popovich and your favorite player Tim Duncan did it. You stand in the lane anyway. The refs will not call it. It's a stupid rule and the refs know it. Tim Duncan stood in the lane when his guy he was guarding was Love, or bosh. Let Kevin Love have a field day on the three point line because he'll only go like 2-8 and will hurt his team shooting bad shots from the corner

The zone was implemented by that time.