High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

[dhsilv2]

Hmm... I'm not sure how your first part proves that scoring without free throws isn't a valuable skill.

I don't agree that scoring without free throws means you're not being aggressive. Jordan and Hakeem were very aggressive. They were also very good at making difficult shots before double teams got there or before teams could foul.

Watching guys like harden or David Robinson struggle in the playoffs is what makes me think this is the case

Jordan looks like he has a low free throw rate next to Lebron...who's a 6'8 physical freak (even more so than jordan). Jordan is still 11th all time in free throw attempts and 5th all time in free throws made. He was top 5 in free throw attempts 9 times in his career. Top 3 7 times. In terms of free throws made he as top 2 7 times.

MJ got to the line as much as anyone in history.

[mysticOscar]

Hmm... I'm not sure how your first part proves that scoring without free throws isn't a valuable skill.

I don't agree that scoring without free throws means you're not being aggressive. Jordan and Hakeem were very aggressive. They were also very good at making difficult shots before double teams got there or before teams could foul.

Watching guys like harden or David Robinson struggle in the playoffs is what makes me think this is the case

Jordan looks like he has a low free throw rate next to Lebron...who's a 6'8 physical freak (even more so than jordan). Jordan is still 11th all time in free throw attempts and 5th all time in free throws made. He was top 5 in free throw attempts 9 times in his career. Top 3 7 times. In terms of free throws made he as top 2 7 times.

MJ got to the line as much as anyone in history.

Todays top volume perimeter stars have higher Ftr vs previous high volume perimeter players and a lot of them are even higher than Jordan. Just the nature of todays league environment

[dhsilv2]

Hmm... I'm not sure how your first part proves that scoring without free throws isn't a valuable skill.

I don't agree that scoring without free throws means you're not being aggressive. Jordan and Hakeem were very aggressive. They were also very good at making difficult shots before double teams got there or before teams could foul.

Watching guys like harden or David Robinson struggle in the playoffs is what makes me think this is the case

Jordan looks like he has a low free throw rate next to Lebron...who's a 6'8 physical freak (even more so than jordan). Jordan is still 11th all time in free throw attempts and 5th all time in free throws made. He was top 5 in free throw attempts 9 times in his career. Top 3 7 times. In terms of free throws made he as top 2 7 times.

MJ got to the line as much as anyone in history.

Todays top volume perimeter stars have higher Ftr vs previous high volume perimeter players and a lot of them are even higher than Jordan. Just the nature of todays league environment

Odd, so why is free throw rate down for point guards, shooting guards, and small forwards as a whole? All be it we see a small spike or two in there...

......PG.... SG.... SF
1985 29.2% 27.5% 31.6%
1986 31.5% 27.0% 33.7%
1987 31.7% 27.9% 34.7%
1988 29.0% 27.9% 30.9%
1989 29.9% 27.4% 29.6%
1990 28.9% 28.8% 30.0%
1991 29.2% 28.2% 30.0%
1992 27.3% 27.5% 27.0%
1993 28.7% 28.5% 29.4%
1994 27.5% 27.7% 28.5%
1995 30.0% 29.2% 31.9%
1996 30.4% 30.6% 30.4%
1997 28.4% 28.9% 30.2%
1998 28.8% 27.9% 31.5%
1999 26.8% 28.0% 31.1%
2000 24.6% 28.3% 29.9%
2001 24.8% 29.7% 28.2%
2002 24.7% 25.2% 27.3%
2003 26.9% 28.1% 27.1%
2004 26.6% 26.5% 27.7%
2005 28.9% 30.2% 29.8%
2006 30.0% 30.5% 35.1%
2007 28.6% 31.4% 31.5%
2008 25.4% 27.9% 30.7%
2009 28.6% 26.7% 28.8%
2010 26.3% 27.5% 29.6%
2011 28.6% 26.5% 28.0%
2012 25.7% 24.6% 25.4%
2013 24.7% 25.1% 24.9%
2014 26.7% 26.1% 25.8%
2015 26.0% 25.0% 24.7%
2016 26.2% 24.1% 26.3%
2017 28.5% 21.6% 27.1%

[Baski]

In this poster's previous incarnation the mantra was "LeBron can't shoot outside 3 feet". Since it's no longer a weakness in LeBron's game he had to get a bit more creative. Tried it with the old "not clutch" thread and got destroyed by BombSquad so he had to move the goal posts again with this brilliant thread and ignore whatever doesn't fit the narrative.

Omg he's Generalmanager? Sad.

[bledredwine]

I also have to find this stat but I know it's true - 75 percentish of Kobe AND Lebron's 40+ point games have happened against losing teams whereas the majority of Jordan's came against winning teams (over .500). I'll have to figure that out unless someone beats me to it.

Just did a quick back of the napkin math, a bit of memory so could be fuzzy look at Lebron (less games). 50 were 500 or better teams 27 were losing teams. Kobe would take way longer, but there's no way in hell I'm off by more than 10 on my count, let alone have it completely flipped. So with lebron that's completely false.

Wrong. What's the highest scoring playoff game Lebron's even had? Jordan had 13 50 point playoff games. Lebron has not a single one. That alone is enough proof. If you really insist, I'll find the stats. It looks really bad for Kobe and Lebron, who dominate weaker teams like the raptors, Knicks when they suck and bobcats.

[mysticOscar]

Jordan looks like he has a low free throw rate next to Lebron...who's a 6'8 physical freak (even more so than jordan). Jordan is still 11th all time in free throw attempts and 5th all time in free throws made. He was top 5 in free throw attempts 9 times in his career. Top 3 7 times. In terms of free throws made he as top 2 7 times.

MJ got to the line as much as anyone in history.

Todays top volume perimeter stars have higher Ftr vs previous high volume perimeter players and a lot of them are even higher than Jordan. Just the nature of todays league environment

Odd, so why is free throw rate down for point guards, shooting guards, and small forwards as a whole? All be it we see a small spike or two in there...

......PG.... SG.... SF
1985 29.2% 27.5% 31.6%
1986 31.5% 27.0% 33.7%
1987 31.7% 27.9% 34.7%
1988 29.0% 27.9% 30.9%
1989 29.9% 27.4% 29.6%
1990 28.9% 28.8% 30.0%
1991 29.2% 28.2% 30.0%
1992 27.3% 27.5% 27.0%
1993 28.7% 28.5% 29.4%
1994 27.5% 27.7% 28.5%
1995 30.0% 29.2% 31.9%
1996 30.4% 30.6% 30.4%
1997 28.4% 28.9% 30.2%
1998 28.8% 27.9% 31.5%
1999 26.8% 28.0% 31.1%
2000 24.6% 28.3% 29.9%
2001 24.8% 29.7% 28.2%
2002 24.7% 25.2% 27.3%
2003 26.9% 28.1% 27.1%
2004 26.6% 26.5% 27.7%
2005 28.9% 30.2% 29.8%
2006 30.0% 30.5% 35.1%
2007 28.6% 31.4% 31.5%
2008 25.4% 27.9% 30.7%
2009 28.6% 26.7% 28.8%
2010 26.3% 27.5% 29.6%
2011 28.6% 26.5% 28.0%
2012 25.7% 24.6% 25.4%
2013 24.7% 25.1% 24.9%
2014 26.7% 26.1% 25.8%
2015 26.0% 25.0% 24.7%
2016 26.2% 24.1% 26.3%
2017 28.5% 21.6% 27.1%

Because the main beneficiary of todays environmnt are HIGH usage perimeter players that are good at driving to the basket....its no coincidence that most players that fit this bracket had there highest FTr on or after '05.

Players like...

Iverson
Kobe
Arenas
Pierce
Vince
Marbury

[dhsilv2]

I also have to find this stat but I know it's true - 75 percentish of Kobe AND Lebron's 40+ point games have happened against losing teams whereas the majority of Jordan's came against winning teams (over .500). I'll have to figure that out unless someone beats me to it.

Just did a quick back of the napkin math, a bit of memory so could be fuzzy look at Lebron (less games). 50 were 500 or better teams 27 were losing teams. Kobe would take way longer, but there's no way in hell I'm off by more than 10 on my count, let alone have it completely flipped. So with lebron that's completely false.

Wrong. What's the highest scoring playoff game Lebron's even had? Jordan had 13 50 point playoff games. Lebron has not a single one. That alone is enough proof. If you really insist, I'll find the stats. It looks really bad for Kobe and Lebron, who dominate weaker teams like the raptors, Knicks when they suck and bobcats.

I looked at every game he's scored 40 or more again, it's possible I made a few errors when going over it, but you are 100% wrong unless your stat used an absurd amount of cherry picking. It is an absolute fact that Lebron's 40+ games have come overwhelmingly against teams that had an overall winning regular season record.

Why would playoff scoring matter here? Lebron has 19 40 point games in the playoffs. out of 217 games ~8.8% of this playoff games. he had 58 regular season 40 point games out of 1097 ~5.3% of his games.

So Lebron is more likely to score 40 or more in the playoffs against the better teams than he is in the regular season. So get out of here with assumptions and don't go around calling me wrong when the data is a few mouse clicks away that shows that the statement that 75% of lebron's 40 point games came against losing teams is false.

[dhsilv2]

Todays top volume perimeter stars have higher Ftr vs previous high volume perimeter players and a lot of them are even higher than Jordan. Just the nature of todays league environment

Odd, so why is free throw rate down for point guards, shooting guards, and small forwards as a whole? All be it we see a small spike or two in there...

......PG.... SG.... SF
1985 29.2% 27.5% 31.6%
1986 31.5% 27.0% 33.7%
1987 31.7% 27.9% 34.7%
1988 29.0% 27.9% 30.9%
1989 29.9% 27.4% 29.6%
1990 28.9% 28.8% 30.0%
1991 29.2% 28.2% 30.0%
1992 27.3% 27.5% 27.0%
1993 28.7% 28.5% 29.4%
1994 27.5% 27.7% 28.5%
1995 30.0% 29.2% 31.9%
1996 30.4% 30.6% 30.4%
1997 28.4% 28.9% 30.2%
1998 28.8% 27.9% 31.5%
1999 26.8% 28.0% 31.1%
2000 24.6% 28.3% 29.9%
2001 24.8% 29.7% 28.2%
2002 24.7% 25.2% 27.3%
2003 26.9% 28.1% 27.1%
2004 26.6% 26.5% 27.7%
2005 28.9% 30.2% 29.8%
2006 30.0% 30.5% 35.1%
2007 28.6% 31.4% 31.5%
2008 25.4% 27.9% 30.7%
2009 28.6% 26.7% 28.8%
2010 26.3% 27.5% 29.6%
2011 28.6% 26.5% 28.0%
2012 25.7% 24.6% 25.4%
2013 24.7% 25.1% 24.9%
2014 26.7% 26.1% 25.8%
2015 26.0% 25.0% 24.7%
2016 26.2% 24.1% 26.3%
2017 28.5% 21.6% 27.1%

Because the main beneficiary of todays environmnt are HIGH usage perimeter players that are good at driving to the basket....its no coincidence that most players that fit this bracket had there highest FTr on or after '05.

Players like...

Iverson
Kobe
Arenas
Pierce
Vince
Marbury

High usage players get higher free throw rates...yeah that's not new.

[mysticOscar]

Odd, so why is free throw rate down for point guards, shooting guards, and small forwards as a whole? All be it we see a small spike or two in there...

......PG.... SG.... SF
1985 29.2% 27.5% 31.6%
1986 31.5% 27.0% 33.7%
1987 31.7% 27.9% 34.7%
1988 29.0% 27.9% 30.9%
1989 29.9% 27.4% 29.6%
1990 28.9% 28.8% 30.0%
1991 29.2% 28.2% 30.0%
1992 27.3% 27.5% 27.0%
1993 28.7% 28.5% 29.4%
1994 27.5% 27.7% 28.5%
1995 30.0% 29.2% 31.9%
1996 30.4% 30.6% 30.4%
1997 28.4% 28.9% 30.2%
1998 28.8% 27.9% 31.5%
1999 26.8% 28.0% 31.1%
2000 24.6% 28.3% 29.9%
2001 24.8% 29.7% 28.2%
2002 24.7% 25.2% 27.3%
2003 26.9% 28.1% 27.1%
2004 26.6% 26.5% 27.7%
2005 28.9% 30.2% 29.8%
2006 30.0% 30.5% 35.1%
2007 28.6% 31.4% 31.5%
2008 25.4% 27.9% 30.7%
2009 28.6% 26.7% 28.8%
2010 26.3% 27.5% 29.6%
2011 28.6% 26.5% 28.0%
2012 25.7% 24.6% 25.4%
2013 24.7% 25.1% 24.9%
2014 26.7% 26.1% 25.8%
2015 26.0% 25.0% 24.7%
2016 26.2% 24.1% 26.3%
2017 28.5% 21.6% 27.1%

Because the main beneficiary of todays environmnt are HIGH usage perimeter players that are good at driving to the basket....its no coincidence that most players that fit this bracket had there highest FTr on or after '05.

Players like...

Iverson
Kobe
Arenas
Pierce
Vince
Marbury

High usage players get higher free throw rates...yeah that's not new.

That wasnt my point tho, these type of players get a boost in there FTr after handcheck was curtailed

[dhsilv2]

Because the main beneficiary of todays environmnt are HIGH usage perimeter players that are good at driving to the basket....its no coincidence that most players that fit this bracket had there highest FTr on or after '05.

Players like...

Iverson
Kobe
Arenas
Pierce
Vince
Marbury

High usage players get higher free throw rates...yeah that's not new.

That wasnt my point tho, these type of players get a boost in there FTr after handcheck was curtailed

That's true to a degree. Though after the first few years, it looks like some of that went down as defenses adapted and likely the points of emphasis with the refs shifted. But yes players who can get to the rim, and it's a bit easier today to do so are going to get more free throws.