Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer

[Masigond]

Harden against the Warriors in the 2019 Playoffs:
34,8 PPG, +4,9 rTS, %88 unassisted points rate,

Harden against the Lakers in the 2020 Playoffs:
29,4 PPG, +11,1 rTS, %76,5 unassisted points rate,

Jordan against the Jazz in the 1997 Playoffs:
32,3 PPG, +0,01 rTS, %47 unassisted points rate

. Assisted points tracking started with play by play data. Don't have the data past 97, unfortunately. Jazz series was the best of Jordan's 97 championship run, that's why I picked it.

Without adjustion and with the second prime Jordan, Peak Harden definitely ahead of him on all combined scoring volume, shot efficiency and creation.

This is completely ignoring the system the respective players played in. Do you expect a team's top scorer to do it all alone when he's playing in the TPO? This comparison doesn't say anything reliable about the players' abilities.

[No-more-rings]

The other thing that deserves mention in this comparison is variance. Harden's scoring has higher highs and lower lows than MJ's scoring and it's even more apparent in the playoffs. This matters because playoff series are small sample size in which every game matters. So if Harden stinks it up in 4 games but is on fire in the other two, it hurts his team's chances of winning the series a lot more than if he had the same average scoring production at the same average efficiency in all those games.

You keep saying this, but honestly I'm not sure what makes you think Harden has higher highs. Are you forgetting that MJ scored 63 points in a playoff game against the 86 Celtics for example? Or that he had multiple 40+ ppg series?

What I meant was volume combined with efficiency. I do think Harden's highs are "better" than Jordan's because he can shoot the 3 better.

Can you provide evidence for this? Because glancing at some of their best scoring series, i don't see a conclusive volume or efficiency advantage for Harden. And this isn't even adjusting for league average ts% which was definitely lower in Jordan's era.

Harden:

34.5/59.4 ts%/44.3 fg% vs Warriors 2019(13th ranked d)
29.7/61.8 ts%/46.5 fg% vs OKC 2020(7th ranked d)
29.4/66.4 ts%/50 fg% vs Lakers 2020(3rd ranked d)
33.2/59.7 ts%/41.1 fg% vs OKC 2017(10th ranked d)
28.4/65.2 ts%/46.5 fg% vs Mavs 2015(20th ranked d)
28.4/62.7 ts%/546.7 fg% vs GSW 2015(1st ranked d)

At least on paper these are Harden's best scoring series of his career.

Jordan:

45.2/63.2 ts%/55.9 fg% vs Cavs 5th ranked d
39.8/59.8 ts%/51.8 fg% vs Cavs 2nd ranked d
35.7/64.6 ts%/55 fg% vs Knicks 10th ranked d
36.8/59.9 ts%/53.9 fg% vs Bucks 14th ranked d
43/ 61.6 ts%/54.8 fg% vs Sixers 16th ranked d
29.8/64.6 ts% 53.5 fg% vs Pistons 4th ranked d

At least on paper those are many of Jordan's best scoring series.

What makes Harden's highs better, because he reached a higher ts% in 2 of his series, yet had way lower volume?

[Peregrine01]

You keep saying this, but honestly I'm not sure what makes you think Harden has higher highs. Are you forgetting that MJ scored 63 points in a playoff game against the 86 Celtics for example? Or that he had multiple 40+ ppg series?

What I meant was volume combined with efficiency. I do think Harden's highs are "better" than Jordan's because he can shoot the 3 better.

Can you provide evidence for this? Because glancing at some of their best scoring series, i don't see a conclusive volume or efficiency advantage for Harden. And this isn't even adjusting for league average ts% which was definitely lower in Jordan's era.

Harden:

34.5/59.4 ts%/44.3 fg% vs Warriors 2019(13th ranked d)
29.7/61.8 ts%/46.5 fg% vs OKC 2020(7th ranked d)
29.4/66.4 ts%/50 fg% vs Lakers 2020(3rd ranked d)
33.2/59.7 ts%/41.1 fg% vs OKC 2017(10th ranked d)
28.4/65.2 ts%/46.5 fg% vs Mavs 2015(20th ranked d)
28.4/62.7 ts%/546.7 fg% vs GSW 2015(1st ranked d)

At least on paper these are Harden's best scoring series of his career.

Jordan:

45.2/63.2 ts%/55.9 fg% vs Cavs 5th ranked d
39.8/59.8 ts%/51.8 fg% vs Cavs 2nd ranked d
35.7/64.6 ts%/55 fg% vs Knicks 10th ranked d
36.8/59.9 ts%/53.9 fg% vs Bucks 14th ranked d
43/ 61.6 ts%/54.8 fg% vs Sixers 16th ranked d
29.8/64.6 ts% 53.5 fg% vs Pistons 4th ranked d

At least on paper those are many of Jordan's best scoring series.

What makes Harden's highs better, because he reached a higher ts% in 2 of his series, yet had way lower volume?

I don't think we disagree. Harden hasn't really had the "highs" in the playoffs like he does in the regular season. All I'm saying is that Harden at his hypothetical best is a better scorer than Jordan, and primarily due to his 3-pt shooting. Practically speaking, he isn't.

[ceoofkobefans]

I personally do not see the debate. In my eyes MJ is by far the greatest scorer ever ESPECIALLY Peak wise. MJ Has an unmatched Combination of Scoring volume efficiency gravity portability and resilience. He’s also the most clutch scorer of all time. From 1989-1993 Michael Jordan averaged 31.9 IA PTS/75 on +5.8 rTS and upped it to 33.2 IA PTS/75 on +4.1 rTS in the Playoffs. MJ also has fringe top 3 gravity of all time along with Steph curry Shaq and Kobe.

[feyki]

Don't forget about the turnovers. If we cut out the bad pass turnovers from each guy to isolate non play making, Harden is committing ~1 additional turnover per game above Mike (19-20 vs. 97-98). Note: USG rates aren't identical here but close. Given MJ's TOV% wasn't all that different earlier in his career despite considerably greater play making responsibility, I'd say if anything he was probably turning it over less on scoring plays in his prime.

As we know, turnovers are worse than missed shots. MJ wasn't just a better and more efficient scorer in the playoffs; he was better in RS too.

Good point. Generally, don't want to go further in details since most of the posters even couldn't realize what the creation is and worth what, till the last few years(thanks to channels like ThinkingBasketball and HoopVenue).

Kobe, Iverson and Jordan probably the best players in that scoring turnovers rates. It favors Jordan over Harden. Also, inflation adjustion and Peak-Prime Jordan(86/93) two factor if we including them, Jordan is ahead of Harden.

I personally rank Jordan, Iverson and Kobe as top 3(without efficiency)on scoring all time. Also with scoring/shooting efficiency, it's simply Jordan has the throne.

[Jaqua92]

What I meant was volume combined with efficiency. I do think Harden's highs are "better" than Jordan's because he can shoot the 3 better.

Can you provide evidence for this? Because glancing at some of their best scoring series, i don't see a conclusive volume or efficiency advantage for Harden. And this isn't even adjusting for league average ts% which was definitely lower in Jordan's era.

Harden:

34.5/59.4 ts%/44.3 fg% vs Warriors 2019(13th ranked d)
29.7/61.8 ts%/46.5 fg% vs OKC 2020(7th ranked d)
29.4/66.4 ts%/50 fg% vs Lakers 2020(3rd ranked d)
33.2/59.7 ts%/41.1 fg% vs OKC 2017(10th ranked d)
28.4/65.2 ts%/46.5 fg% vs Mavs 2015(20th ranked d)
28.4/62.7 ts%/546.7 fg% vs GSW 2015(1st ranked d)

At least on paper these are Harden's best scoring series of his career.

Jordan:

45.2/63.2 ts%/55.9 fg% vs Cavs 5th ranked d
39.8/59.8 ts%/51.8 fg% vs Cavs 2nd ranked d
35.7/64.6 ts%/55 fg% vs Knicks 10th ranked d
36.8/59.9 ts%/53.9 fg% vs Bucks 14th ranked d
43/ 61.6 ts%/54.8 fg% vs Sixers 16th ranked d
29.8/64.6 ts% 53.5 fg% vs Pistons 4th ranked d

At least on paper those are many of Jordan's best scoring series.

What makes Harden's highs better, because he reached a higher ts% in 2 of his series, yet had way lower volume?

I don't think we disagree. Harden hasn't really had the "highs" in the playoffs like he does in the regular season. All I'm saying is that Harden at his hypothetical best is a better scorer than Jordan, and primarily due to his 3-pt shooting. Practically speaking, he isn't.

Yikes.

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[rate_]

Peak 3-season playoffs:
1991-93 MJ: 58 G | 33.7 PTS/g | +3.8 rTS | 3 RINGS
2018-20 Harden: 40 G | 29.7 PTS/g | +1.7 rTS | 0 RINGS

MJ higher volume and relative efficiency, and more team success in the process of doing so. This isn't close.

[The Explorer]

Jordan had a much better repertoire than James Harden, not close.