Better peak - Leonard vs Russell

[Bidofo]

Durant only shot less than 2% better FG and 1% better from three. The only major difference in their stats that series was free throw shooting.

Okay...thanks for just repeating what you already said. The gap in TS and volume is substantial. If you can't accept that for whatever reason I hope I never see that "600+points on 60+%TS!!!" stat again, on the basis of consistency.

Westbrook doesn't rely on scoring efficiency like Lamarcus. Once Lamarcus efficiency declines, he's pretty much worthless. 2016 Westbrook was just the more impactful overall player than Lamarcus. Westbrook won MVP the very next year! KD not only had the advantage of having the much better teammate but also being in his 6th season as a offensive star to Kawhi's 1st season. The only significant thing Durant has to show for it is shooting free throws better.

I agree Westbrook is not necessarily an efficiency-dependent player to have offensive impact, but that's still a disingenuous way of saying "screw the 48%TS and 105 ORTG" when he could have just...not shot so bad. You're telling me there's no problem in Westbrook going 10/31 with 5 turnovers in a close game 3 loss? His usage was at 37.8% for the whole series, that's obscene for a team with Kevin Durant. Overall he had a great year, but Westbrook can be very hit or miss in individual playoff series, and this series was more like a miss. The fact he won MVP next year has nothing to do with this.

Yea LMA is not exactly a world-beater in the playoffs, but why does that matter in the context of this specific series? He was efficient (that's not all of his value but it's all that you seem to care about) and played very well, meanwhile Kawhi gets torched in the clinching game 6 by KD with 37/9. Nice try at deflecting Kawhi's failure tho.

2017 Kawhi is on a whole another level as an offensive player than 2016 Kawhi. The problem with the offense is Lamarcus didn't accept or doesn't know how to be a sidekick. Lamarcus can still be #1 option with Derozan but once he took a clear #2 role is when he dragged the entire offense down.

Then why didn't Kawhi just carry the team offensively, since apparently you think he did that in Toronto?

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Durant only shot less than 2% better FG and 1% better from three. The only major difference in their stats that series was free throw shooting.

Okay...thanks for just repeating what you already said. The gap in TS and volume is substantial. If you can't accept that for whatever reason I hope I never see that "600+points on 60+%TS!!!" stat again, on the basis of consistency.

Westbrook doesn't rely on scoring efficiency like Lamarcus. Once Lamarcus efficiency declines, he's pretty much worthless. 2016 Westbrook was just the more impactful overall player than Lamarcus. Westbrook won MVP the very next year! KD not only had the advantage of having the much better teammate but also being in his 6th season as a offensive star to Kawhi's 1st season. The only significant thing Durant has to show for it is shooting free throws better.

I agree Westbrook is not necessarily an efficiency-dependent player to have offensive impact, but that's still a disingenuous way of saying "screw the 48%TS and 105 ORTG" when he could have just...not shot so bad. You're telling me there's no problem in Westbrook going 10/31 with 5 turnovers in a close game 3 loss? His usage was at 37.8% for the whole series, that's obscene for a team with Kevin Durant. Overall he had a great year, but Westbrook can be very hit or miss in individual playoff series, and this series was more like a miss. The fact he won MVP next year has nothing to do with this.

Yea LMA is not exactly a world-beater in the playoffs, but why does that matter in the context of this specific series? He was efficient (that's not all of his value but it's all that you seem to care about) and played very well, meanwhile Kawhi gets torched in the clinching game 6 by KD with 37/9. Nice try at deflecting Kawhi's failure tho.

2017 Kawhi is on a whole another level as an offensive player than 2016 Kawhi. The problem with the offense is Lamarcus didn't accept or doesn't know how to be a sidekick. Lamarcus can still be #1 option with Derozan but once he took a clear #2 role is when he dragged the entire offense down.

Then why didn't Kawhi just carry the team offensively, since apparently you think he did that in Toronto?

Aldridge thinks he's better than he is and tried being the 1st option in 2016. You would have to ask him why he didnt let Kawhi carry the team and take over. The answer is probably the same reason why Lamarcus has never won a conference finals game, he's a moron.

When Kawhi Leonard is the clear cut first option from 2017 to now, his team has yet to lose a series.

Kawhi's performance in 2016 2nd round was still better than Giannis in the 2019 ECF and also still better than Curry in the 2013 2nd round. All guys were 24 years old right? again proving why Kawhi is the best of this generation. Thank you for proving it again for me.

[DatAsh]

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team has the same results, that means overall Kawhi matches his impact. Kawhi is a better shooter, rebounder, defender than Jordan and an equal scorer.

First of breaking down your analysis:

Better shooter? I'm no so sure, Jordan was a better midrange shooter in an era where teams didn't just give up open midrange shots due to the fear of the three or drive. Useless to compare 3point shooting as Jordan didn't practice that shot and Kawhi did. Free throw shooting is dead even, and Kawhi is a great mid range shooter. I actually see these guys about dead even as shooters. I think Jordan would be just as good of a 3point shooter if he were born in 1991. Actually surprised at how dead even these guys are as shooters.

Better scorer? No way, though I'll admit it's pretty close, especially with Kawhi's postseason, but he's not there, at least not yet. Shooting may be about even, but Jordan is in another league as a slasher and breaking down a defense with penetration. He's also a much better off ball player. Kawhi tends to just stand around a lot. I think Jordan's scoring is more conductive to boosting great offenses, even if the stats are similar.

Looking at overall offense side by side

RS:
Kawhi: 26.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.8 stl, 0.4 blk, 2.0 tov, on +5% TS
Jordan: 31.5 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 2.7 stl, 1.0 blk, 1.5 tov, on +6% TS

PS:
Kawhi: 30.5 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.7 stl, 0.7 blk, 3.1 tov, on +6% TS
Jordan: 31.1 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 8.4 apg, 2.4 stl, 1.4 blk, 2.5 tov, on +5% TS

Overall I see two very good scorers. Jordan noticeably better in the regular season, but very comparable in this postseason comparison. I'd still give Jordan the slight edge for his turnover economy. This is ignoring the fact that Jordan's TS% would probably be 2-4% higher in today's game just by turning a lot of those long two he shot into threes. Jordan into today's game would make it clear who the better scorer was.

Then we get to the playmaking gap, especially in the postseason. Jordan is more than doubling Kawhi's assist total, while also turning the ball over less. Given how close the scoring is, and that it's also slightly in favor of Jordan, and I don't see how can come to any other conclusion that these guys are several tiers apart on offense. Moving on.

Better Defender? Huh? This is the most head scratching thing you said here. Unless wer'e talking 2015 or 2016 Kawhi(that guy was the best perimeter defender ever imo). I thought we were talking about 2019 Kawhi, though. 91 Jordan is a pseudo DPOY caliber player, Kawhi is an average to below average defender(RS), and a slightly above average (PS) defender. Kawhi in the postseason was a great man defender, but lousy and lazy help defender. Jordan was also a great man defender, but also arguably the greatest help defender ever(it's between him and Pippen for me). Even just looking at post season, I don't find it unreasonable to say Jordan was 2-3x the defender that Kawhi is. Recsenecy bias is a real thing. 90% of this board is probably too young to have seen that first Bulls three peat team, but Michael and Scottie are absolutely among the best perimeter defenders ever. Kawhi...not so much(unless he can get back to his old form). I also think people still have the memory of 2015/2016 terrorizing everyone on defense, and it's kinda to shake those memories and truly understand that they're no longer relevant.

Putting numbers to it, I see PS Kawhi as a +0.5-1.5 def and PS Jordan as +2.5-3.5. Moving on.

Better Rebounder This I absolutely agree. Only point of contention here is that 6.4 rpg is more valuable as a guard than 6.4 rpg as a forward. How much? Has there ever been a good analysis done on that? Either way I think Kawhi has a big enough edge that it doesn't matter

Now your original claim was that you could replace Kawhi with Jordan in 91 and the Bulls would still win. I think the silver lining here is just how much better the Bulls were than the Lakers, but, how much of that was due to Jordan being a much better player than Kawhi.

I've got 91 Jordan somewhere around
+7.5-8.5 off, 2.5-3.5 def

and I've got 19 Kawhi somewhere around
+4.5-5.5 off, +0.5-1.5 def

Taking the averages, replacing a +11 player with a +6 player is a huge deal, especially when you consider how much they relied on Jordan's exceptional playmaking in that series. He was basically playing PG.

Looking at just the finals.
Jordan: 31.2 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 11.4 apg, 2.8 stl, 1.4 blk, 3.6 tov, on +6%TS
Kawhi: 28.5 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 2.0 stl, 1.2 blk, 3.0 tov, on +5% TS

Would Kawhi really have been capable of taking on that huge playmaking role and playing it so perfectly? The Bulls were a lot better than the Lakers, but I'm not so sure.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team has the same results, that means overall Kawhi matches his impact. Kawhi is a better shooter, rebounder, defender than Jordan and an equal scorer.

First of breaking down your analysis:

Better shooter? I'm no so sure, Jordan was a better midrange shooter in an era where teams didn't just give up open midrange shots due to the fear of the three or drive. Useless to compare 3point shooting as Jordan didn't practice that shot and Kawhi did. Free throw shooting is dead even, and Kawhi is a great mid range shooter. I actually see these guys about dead even as shooters. I think Jordan would be just as good of a 3point shooter if he were born in 1991. Actually surprised at how dead even these guys are as shooters.

Better scorer? No way, though I'll admit it's pretty close, especially with Kawhi's postseason, but he's not there, at least not yet. Shooting may be about even, but Jordan is in another league as a slasher and breaking down a defense with penetration. He's also a much better off ball player. Kawhi tends to just stand around a lot. I think Jordan's scoring is more conductive to boosting great offenses, even if the stats are similar.

Looking at overall offense side by side

RS:
Kawhi: 26.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.8 stl, 0.4 blk, 2.0 tov, on +5% TS
Jordan: 31.5 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 2.7 stl, 1.0 blk, 1.5 tov, on +6% TS

PS:
Kawhi: 30.5 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.7 stl, 0.7 blk, 3.1 tov, on +6% TS
Jordan: 31.1 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 8.4 apg, 2.4 stl, 1.4 blk, 2.5 tov, on +5% TS

Overall I see two very good scorers. Jordan noticeably better in the regular season, but very comparable in this postseason comparison. I'd still give Jordan the slight edge for his turnover economy. This is ignoring the fact that Jordan's TS% would probably be 2-4% higher in today's game just by turning a lot of those long two he shot into threes. Jordan into today's game would make it clear who the better scorer was.

Then we get to the playmaking gap, especially in the postseason. Jordan is more than doubling Kawhi's assist total, while also turning the ball over less. Given how close the scoring is, and that it's also slightly in favor of Jordan, and I don't see how can come to any other conclusion that these guys are several tiers apart on offense. Moving on.

Better Defender? Huh? This is the most head scratching thing you said here. Unless wer'e talking 2015 or 2016 Kawhi(that guy was the best perimeter defender ever imo). I thought we were talking about 2019 Kawhi, though. 91 Jordan is a pseudo DPOY caliber player, Kawhi is an average to below average defender(RS), and a slightly above average (PS) defender. Kawhi in the postseason was a great man defender, but lousy and lazy help defender. Jordan was also a great man defender, but also arguably the greatest help defender ever(it's between him and Pippen for me). Even just looking at post season, I don't find it unreasonable to say Jordan was 2-3x the defender that Kawhi is. Recsenecy bias is a real thing. 90% of this board is probably too young to have seen that first Bulls three peat team, but Michael and Scottie are absolutely among the best perimeter defenders ever. Kawhi...not so much(unless he can get back to his old form). I also think people still have the memory of 2015/2016 terrorizing everyone on defense, and it's kinda to shake those memories and truly understand that they're no longer relevant.

Putting numbers to it, I see PS Kawhi as a +0.5-1.5 def and PS Jordan as +2.5-3.5. Moving on.

Better Rebounder This I absolutely agree. Only point of contention here is that 6.4 rpg is more valuable as a guard than 6.4 rpg as a forward. How much? Has there ever been a good analysis done on that? Either way I think Kawhi has a big enough edge that it doesn't matter

Now your original claim was that you could replace Kawhi with Jordan in 91 and the Bulls would still win. I think the silver lining here is just how much better the Bulls were than the Lakers, but, how much of that was due to Jordan being a much better player than Kawhi.

I've got 91 Jordan somewhere around
+7.5-8.5 off, 2.5-3.5 def

and I've got 19 Kawhi somewhere around
+4.5-5.5 off, +0.5-1.5 def

Taking the averages, replacing a +11 player with a +6 player is a huge deal, especially when you consider how much they relied on Jordan's exceptional playmaking in that series. He was basically playing PG.

Looking at just the finals.
Jordan: 31.2 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 11.4 apg, 2.8 stl, 1.4 blk, 3.6 tov, on +6%TS
Kawhi: 28.5 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 2.0 stl, 1.2 blk, 3.0 tov, on +5% TS

Would Kawhi really have been capable of taking on that huge playmaking role and playing it so perfectly? The Bulls were a lot better than the Lakers, but I'm not so sure.

Shooting you are assuming Jordan is as good of a 3 point shooter as Kawhi in this era. That's wishful thinking, I don't think Jordan is quite the shooter as Kawhi.

Scoring? Kawhi's TS is better, he was in a much less proven system and playing with a non superstar, he also faced defensive teams anchored by embiid and giannis. Have to give the edge to Kawhi there again.

Rebounding by far Kawhi and it's not even close.

Defense, you are digging into stats too much on this one. Kawhi's teams in 2017 and 2019 playoffs were still elite! He is always a great team defender and lockdown when he wants to be. He's a lot bigger and stronger than Jordan and can guard guys like Gianni. Jordan is quicker athlete but I don't see why hes better than Kawhi. Jordan had Pippen anchor all his defensive teams and before that he had Oakley. I will say its a tie here at most.

Ball handling and passing are the only things that Jordan is clearly better than Kawhi at.

[DatAsh]

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team has the same results, that means overall Kawhi matches his impact. Kawhi is a better shooter, rebounder, defender than Jordan and an equal scorer.

First of breaking down your analysis:

Better shooter? I'm no so sure, Jordan was a better midrange shooter in an era where teams didn't just give up open midrange shots due to the fear of the three or drive. Useless to compare 3point shooting as Jordan didn't practice that shot and Kawhi did. Free throw shooting is dead even, and Kawhi is a great mid range shooter. I actually see these guys about dead even as shooters. I think Jordan would be just as good of a 3point shooter if he were born in 1991. Actually surprised at how dead even these guys are as shooters.

Better scorer? No way, though I'll admit it's pretty close, especially with Kawhi's postseason, but he's not there, at least not yet. Shooting may be about even, but Jordan is in another league as a slasher and breaking down a defense with penetration. He's also a much better off ball player. Kawhi tends to just stand around a lot. I think Jordan's scoring is more conductive to boosting great offenses, even if the stats are similar.

Looking at overall offense side by side

RS:
Kawhi: 26.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.8 stl, 0.4 blk, 2.0 tov, on +5% TS
Jordan: 31.5 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 2.7 stl, 1.0 blk, 1.5 tov, on +6% TS

PS:
Kawhi: 30.5 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.7 stl, 0.7 blk, 3.1 tov, on +6% TS
Jordan: 31.1 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 8.4 apg, 2.4 stl, 1.4 blk, 2.5 tov, on +5% TS

Overall I see two very good scorers. Jordan noticeably better in the regular season, but very comparable in this postseason comparison. I'd still give Jordan the slight edge for his turnover economy. This is ignoring the fact that Jordan's TS% would probably be 2-4% higher in today's game just by turning a lot of those long two he shot into threes. Jordan into today's game would make it clear who the better scorer was.

Then we get to the playmaking gap, especially in the postseason. Jordan is more than doubling Kawhi's assist total, while also turning the ball over less. Given how close the scoring is, and that it's also slightly in favor of Jordan, and I don't see how can come to any other conclusion that these guys are several tiers apart on offense. Moving on.

Better Defender? Huh? This is the most head scratching thing you said here. Unless wer'e talking 2015 or 2016 Kawhi(that guy was the best perimeter defender ever imo). I thought we were talking about 2019 Kawhi, though. 91 Jordan is a pseudo DPOY caliber player, Kawhi is an average to below average defender(RS), and a slightly above average (PS) defender. Kawhi in the postseason was a great man defender, but lousy and lazy help defender. Jordan was also a great man defender, but also arguably the greatest help defender ever(it's between him and Pippen for me). Even just looking at post season, I don't find it unreasonable to say Jordan was 2-3x the defender that Kawhi is. Recsenecy bias is a real thing. 90% of this board is probably too young to have seen that first Bulls three peat team, but Michael and Scottie are absolutely among the best perimeter defenders ever. Kawhi...not so much(unless he can get back to his old form). I also think people still have the memory of 2015/2016 terrorizing everyone on defense, and it's kinda to shake those memories and truly understand that they're no longer relevant.

Putting numbers to it, I see PS Kawhi as a +0.5-1.5 def and PS Jordan as +2.5-3.5. Moving on.

Better Rebounder This I absolutely agree. Only point of contention here is that 6.4 rpg is more valuable as a guard than 6.4 rpg as a forward. How much? Has there ever been a good analysis done on that? Either way I think Kawhi has a big enough edge that it doesn't matter

Now your original claim was that you could replace Kawhi with Jordan in 91 and the Bulls would still win. I think the silver lining here is just how much better the Bulls were than the Lakers, but, how much of that was due to Jordan being a much better player than Kawhi.

I've got 91 Jordan somewhere around
+7.5-8.5 off, 2.5-3.5 def

and I've got 19 Kawhi somewhere around
+4.5-5.5 off, +0.5-1.5 def

Taking the averages, replacing a +11 player with a +6 player is a huge deal, especially when you consider how much they relied on Jordan's exceptional playmaking in that series. He was basically playing PG.

Looking at just the finals.
Jordan: 31.2 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 11.4 apg, 2.8 stl, 1.4 blk, 3.6 tov, on +6%TS
Kawhi: 28.5 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 2.0 stl, 1.2 blk, 3.0 tov, on +5% TS

Would Kawhi really have been capable of taking on that huge playmaking role and playing it so perfectly? The Bulls were a lot better than the Lakers, but I'm not so sure.

Looking at this more, I do think you can make someone of a case for 2016 Kawhi as his peak. He was a legit +4.5-5.0 defender. His offense was definitely worse, but my how much? He's also significantly more portable.

[DatAsh]

Shooting you are assuming Jordan is as good of a 3 point shooter as Kawhi in this era. That's wishful thinking, I don't think Jordan is quite the shooter as Kawhi.

I'm discounting the 3 point comparison completely, would be unwise to try and compare a player who never practices something to a player he does. Last part was a silly (un)educated guess. Their midrange and ftr shooting means there's a higher chance that they'd be relatively equal 3 point shooters than not, though, as that's the only evidence we have to go on. Still pure speculation though, and a waste of time to compare.

Scoring? Kawhi's TS is better, he was in a much less proven system and playing with a non superstar, he also faced defensive teams anchored by embiid and giannis. Have to give the edge to Kawhi there again.

No. Jordan had a better TS% in the regular season by 1%. Kawhi had a better TS% by 1% in the playoffs. Jordan had a higher TS% by 1% in the finals. Jordan had a higher volume in all three. Overall, Jordan was the more efficient scorer, and that's not taking into account that Jordan's TS% would probably be 2-4% higher today, simply by taking less midrange shots.

Rebounding by far Kawhi and it's not even close.

I agree with this.

Defense, you are digging into stats too much on this one. Kawhi's teams in 2017 and 2019 playoffs were still elite! He is always a great team defender and lockdown when he wants to be. He's a lot bigger and stronger than Jordan and can guard guys like Gianni. Jordan is quicker athlete but I don't see why hes better than Kawhi. Jordan had Pippen anchor all his defensive teams and before that he had Oakley. I will say its a tie here at most.

Has absolutely nothing to do with stats. Jordan leads Kawhi in steals and blocks, but I don't give a damn about those stats. Besides we don't even have real stats on Jordan. My assessment comes from watching them play. 19 Kawhi is a great man defender, and a lousy help defender. 91 Jordan is a better man defender, and arguably the best help defender ever(for a perimeter guy). It doesn't get any more clear than that for me.

As for the Jordan vs Pippen thing, I think that's an interesting debate, though probably one for another time. I see Jordan as comfortably better in 88, 89, 90, and 91; slightly better in 92, and I have Pippen as better in 93, and I think Pippen reached a level in 94 that Michael never reached. Only I guy I have over 94 Pippen, coincidentally is 2015/2016 Kawhi.

Ball handling and passing are the only things that Jordan is clearly better than Kawhi at.

And this is an order of magnitude larger than the rebounding gap.

[LKN]

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team has the same results, that means overall Kawhi matches his impact. Kawhi is a better shooter, rebounder, defender than Jordan and an equal scorer.

First of breaking down your analysis:

Better shooter? I'm no so sure, Jordan was a better midrange shooter in an era where teams didn't just give up open midrange shots due to the fear of the three or drive. Useless to compare 3point shooting as Jordan didn't practice that shot and Kawhi did. Free throw shooting is dead even, and Kawhi is a great mid range shooter. I actually see these guys about dead even as shooters. I think Jordan would be just as good of a 3point shooter if he were born in 1991. Actually surprised at how dead even these guys are as shooters.

Better scorer? No way, though I'll admit it's pretty close, especially with Kawhi's postseason, but he's not there, at least not yet. Shooting may be about even, but Jordan is in another league as a slasher and breaking down a defense with penetration. He's also a much better off ball player. Kawhi tends to just stand around a lot. I think Jordan's scoring is more conductive to boosting great offenses, even if the stats are similar.

Looking at overall offense side by side

RS:
Kawhi: 26.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.8 stl, 0.4 blk, 2.0 tov, on +5% TS
Jordan: 31.5 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 2.7 stl, 1.0 blk, 1.5 tov, on +6% TS

PS:
Kawhi: 30.5 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.7 stl, 0.7 blk, 3.1 tov, on +6% TS
Jordan: 31.1 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 8.4 apg, 2.4 stl, 1.4 blk, 2.5 tov, on +5% TS

Overall I see two very good scorers. Jordan noticeably better in the regular season, but very comparable in this postseason comparison. I'd still give Jordan the slight edge for his turnover economy. This is ignoring the fact that Jordan's TS% would probably be 2-4% higher in today's game just by turning a lot of those long two he shot into threes. Jordan into today's game would make it clear who the better scorer was.

Then we get to the playmaking gap, especially in the postseason. Jordan is more than doubling Kawhi's assist total, while also turning the ball over less. Given how close the scoring is, and that it's also slightly in favor of Jordan, and I don't see how can come to any other conclusion that these guys are several tiers apart on offense. Moving on.

Better Defender? Huh? This is the most head scratching thing you said here. Unless wer'e talking 2015 or 2016 Kawhi(that guy was the best perimeter defender ever imo). I thought we were talking about 2019 Kawhi, though. 91 Jordan is a pseudo DPOY caliber player, Kawhi is an average to below average defender(RS), and a slightly above average (PS) defender. Kawhi in the postseason was a great man defender, but lousy and lazy help defender. Jordan was also a great man defender, but also arguably the greatest help defender ever(it's between him and Pippen for me). Even just looking at post season, I don't find it unreasonable to say Jordan was 2-3x the defender that Kawhi is. Recsenecy bias is a real thing. 90% of this board is probably too young to have seen that first Bulls three peat team, but Michael and Scottie are absolutely among the best perimeter defenders ever. Kawhi...not so much(unless he can get back to his old form). I also think people still have the memory of 2015/2016 terrorizing everyone on defense, and it's kinda to shake those memories and truly understand that they're no longer relevant.

Putting numbers to it, I see PS Kawhi as a +0.5-1.5 def and PS Jordan as +2.5-3.5. Moving on.

Better Rebounder This I absolutely agree. Only point of contention here is that 6.4 rpg is more valuable as a guard than 6.4 rpg as a forward. How much? Has there ever been a good analysis done on that? Either way I think Kawhi has a big enough edge that it doesn't matter

Now your original claim was that you could replace Kawhi with Jordan in 91 and the Bulls would still win. I think the silver lining here is just how much better the Bulls were than the Lakers, but, how much of that was due to Jordan being a much better player than Kawhi.

I've got 91 Jordan somewhere around
+7.5-8.5 off, 2.5-3.5 def

and I've got 19 Kawhi somewhere around
+4.5-5.5 off, +0.5-1.5 def

Taking the averages, replacing a +11 player with a +6 player is a huge deal, especially when you consider how much they relied on Jordan's exceptional playmaking in that series. He was basically playing PG.

Looking at just the finals.
Jordan: 31.2 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 11.4 apg, 2.8 stl, 1.4 blk, 3.6 tov, on +6%TS
Kawhi: 28.5 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 2.0 stl, 1.2 blk, 3.0 tov, on +5% TS

Would Kawhi really have been capable of taking on that huge playmaking role and playing it so perfectly? The Bulls were a lot better than the Lakers, but I'm not so sure.

You should Use pts/100, AST%, etc.

MJ looks even better when you adjust for pace.

[DatAsh]

If you plug in Leonard for Jordan from 1990-1991 his team has the same results, that means overall Kawhi matches his impact. Kawhi is a better shooter, rebounder, defender than Jordan and an equal scorer.

First of breaking down your analysis:

Better shooter? I'm no so sure, Jordan was a better midrange shooter in an era where teams didn't just give up open midrange shots due to the fear of the three or drive. Useless to compare 3point shooting as Jordan didn't practice that shot and Kawhi did. Free throw shooting is dead even, and Kawhi is a great mid range shooter. I actually see these guys about dead even as shooters. I think Jordan would be just as good of a 3point shooter if he were born in 1991. Actually surprised at how dead even these guys are as shooters.

Better scorer? No way, though I'll admit it's pretty close, especially with Kawhi's postseason, but he's not there, at least not yet. Shooting may be about even, but Jordan is in another league as a slasher and breaking down a defense with penetration. He's also a much better off ball player. Kawhi tends to just stand around a lot. I think Jordan's scoring is more conductive to boosting great offenses, even if the stats are similar.

Looking at overall offense side by side

RS:
Kawhi: 26.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.8 stl, 0.4 blk, 2.0 tov, on +5% TS
Jordan: 31.5 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 2.7 stl, 1.0 blk, 1.5 tov, on +6% TS

PS:
Kawhi: 30.5 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.7 stl, 0.7 blk, 3.1 tov, on +6% TS
Jordan: 31.1 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 8.4 apg, 2.4 stl, 1.4 blk, 2.5 tov, on +5% TS

Overall I see two very good scorers. Jordan noticeably better in the regular season, but very comparable in this postseason comparison. I'd still give Jordan the slight edge for his turnover economy. This is ignoring the fact that Jordan's TS% would probably be 2-4% higher in today's game just by turning a lot of those long two he shot into threes. Jordan into today's game would make it clear who the better scorer was.

Then we get to the playmaking gap, especially in the postseason. Jordan is more than doubling Kawhi's assist total, while also turning the ball over less. Given how close the scoring is, and that it's also slightly in favor of Jordan, and I don't see how can come to any other conclusion that these guys are several tiers apart on offense. Moving on.

Better Defender? Huh? This is the most head scratching thing you said here. Unless wer'e talking 2015 or 2016 Kawhi(that guy was the best perimeter defender ever imo). I thought we were talking about 2019 Kawhi, though. 91 Jordan is a pseudo DPOY caliber player, Kawhi is an average to below average defender(RS), and a slightly above average (PS) defender. Kawhi in the postseason was a great man defender, but lousy and lazy help defender. Jordan was also a great man defender, but also arguably the greatest help defender ever(it's between him and Pippen for me). Even just looking at post season, I don't find it unreasonable to say Jordan was 2-3x the defender that Kawhi is. Recsenecy bias is a real thing. 90% of this board is probably too young to have seen that first Bulls three peat team, but Michael and Scottie are absolutely among the best perimeter defenders ever. Kawhi...not so much(unless he can get back to his old form). I also think people still have the memory of 2015/2016 terrorizing everyone on defense, and it's kinda to shake those memories and truly understand that they're no longer relevant.

Putting numbers to it, I see PS Kawhi as a +0.5-1.5 def and PS Jordan as +2.5-3.5. Moving on.

Better Rebounder This I absolutely agree. Only point of contention here is that 6.4 rpg is more valuable as a guard than 6.4 rpg as a forward. How much? Has there ever been a good analysis done on that? Either way I think Kawhi has a big enough edge that it doesn't matter

Now your original claim was that you could replace Kawhi with Jordan in 91 and the Bulls would still win. I think the silver lining here is just how much better the Bulls were than the Lakers, but, how much of that was due to Jordan being a much better player than Kawhi.

I've got 91 Jordan somewhere around
+7.5-8.5 off, 2.5-3.5 def

and I've got 19 Kawhi somewhere around
+4.5-5.5 off, +0.5-1.5 def

Taking the averages, replacing a +11 player with a +6 player is a huge deal, especially when you consider how much they relied on Jordan's exceptional playmaking in that series. He was basically playing PG.

Looking at just the finals.
Jordan: 31.2 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 11.4 apg, 2.8 stl, 1.4 blk, 3.6 tov, on +6%TS
Kawhi: 28.5 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 2.0 stl, 1.2 blk, 3.0 tov, on +5% TS

Would Kawhi really have been capable of taking on that huge playmaking role and playing it so perfectly? The Bulls were a lot better than the Lakers, but I'm not so sure.

You should Use pts/100, AST%, etc.

MJ looks even better when you adjust for pace.

Sure.

RS
Kawhi: 37.5 ppg, 11.6 trb%, 16.4 ast%, 2.5 stl%, 1.0 blk%, 8.4 tov% on +5% TS
Jordan: 42.7 ppg, 9.5 trb%, 25.2 ast%, 3.1 stl%, 1.7 stl%, 8.7 tov% on +6% TS

PS
Kawhi: 39.0 ppg, 12.8 trb%, 19.3 ast%, 2.1 stl%, 1.8 blk%, 11.1 tov% on +6% TS
Jordan: 41.8 ppg, 9.9 trb%, 36.7 ast%, 3.2 stl%, 2.4 blk%, 8.9 tov% on +5% TS

Anyone know where to find per possession stats for the finals? I can't find it on bbref.

[70sFan]

What if you cut off Russell's career at 27 years old? You're handcuffing Kawhi here. I think Kawhi will end up with about 5 finals MVPS at the end of his career which is a modern day Russell. Having as much titles as Russell had just doesn't happen anymore.

Then he would come off his fifth ring after 30-40 performance in game 7 of the finals. He'd already have better season than Kawhi has had so far.

Kawhi now has two rings. It's not fair that I don't mention his age, but it's completely fair to assume without any evidences that he'll win next 3 titles? Who is delusional at this point?

2 titles these days is pretty much equal to 5 titles in that era.

LeBron is 35, Durant just had a major injury, harden declines in the playoffs. I don't know who you think is going to magically pop up and beat Kawhi/George. Is bill Russell going to come back into the league? Kawhi/George have 2 titles for sure coming there way and than 3rd year player option. I would say that's 3 titles and and than after that? Kawhi/George might stay together for the rest of there careers and win 5 titles together, they are young enough.

No, 5 titles in 1960s means 5 titles, period. Russell's Celtics were the only team before the merger which won more than 2 titles. It wasn't common back then to win many titles - Nationals did it only once, Warriors did it once, Sixers did it once, Knicks did it twice in the 1970s. It's not that simple, you couldn't just assume it was easy to sin many titles back then because it wasn't. Celtics were the only team who dominated competition so much. Stop acting like it was normal thing back then.

Not to mention that first Kawhi's ring is at best comparable to first Russell's title and rookie Russell was probably still more impactful player than 2015 Leonard.

I won't even reply for the second paragraph, because you act like a child here. I remeber when people said that Curry will end up with 6 rings, same with James and many said that about OKC too even though they never won even once. Don't give Clippers 5 rings before even winning one.

[Franco]

First of breaking down your analysis:

Better shooter? I'm no so sure, Jordan was a better midrange shooter in an era where teams didn't just give up open midrange shots due to the fear of the three or drive. Useless to compare 3point shooting as Jordan didn't practice that shot and Kawhi did. Free throw shooting is dead even, and Kawhi is a great mid range shooter. I actually see these guys about dead even as shooters. I think Jordan would be just as good of a 3point shooter if he were born in 1991. Actually surprised at how dead even these guys are as shooters.

Better scorer? No way, though I'll admit it's pretty close, especially with Kawhi's postseason, but he's not there, at least not yet. Shooting may be about even, but Jordan is in another league as a slasher and breaking down a defense with penetration. He's also a much better off ball player. Kawhi tends to just stand around a lot. I think Jordan's scoring is more conductive to boosting great offenses, even if the stats are similar.

Looking at overall offense side by side

RS:
Kawhi: 26.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.8 stl, 0.4 blk, 2.0 tov, on +5% TS
Jordan: 31.5 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg, 2.7 stl, 1.0 blk, 1.5 tov, on +6% TS

PS:
Kawhi: 30.5 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.7 stl, 0.7 blk, 3.1 tov, on +6% TS
Jordan: 31.1 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 8.4 apg, 2.4 stl, 1.4 blk, 2.5 tov, on +5% TS

Overall I see two very good scorers. Jordan noticeably better in the regular season, but very comparable in this postseason comparison. I'd still give Jordan the slight edge for his turnover economy. This is ignoring the fact that Jordan's TS% would probably be 2-4% higher in today's game just by turning a lot of those long two he shot into threes. Jordan into today's game would make it clear who the better scorer was.

Then we get to the playmaking gap, especially in the postseason. Jordan is more than doubling Kawhi's assist total, while also turning the ball over less. Given how close the scoring is, and that it's also slightly in favor of Jordan, and I don't see how can come to any other conclusion that these guys are several tiers apart on offense. Moving on.

Better Defender? Huh? This is the most head scratching thing you said here. Unless wer'e talking 2015 or 2016 Kawhi(that guy was the best perimeter defender ever imo). I thought we were talking about 2019 Kawhi, though. 91 Jordan is a pseudo DPOY caliber player, Kawhi is an average to below average defender(RS), and a slightly above average (PS) defender. Kawhi in the postseason was a great man defender, but lousy and lazy help defender. Jordan was also a great man defender, but also arguably the greatest help defender ever(it's between him and Pippen for me). Even just looking at post season, I don't find it unreasonable to say Jordan was 2-3x the defender that Kawhi is. Recsenecy bias is a real thing. 90% of this board is probably too young to have seen that first Bulls three peat team, but Michael and Scottie are absolutely among the best perimeter defenders ever. Kawhi...not so much(unless he can get back to his old form). I also think people still have the memory of 2015/2016 terrorizing everyone on defense, and it's kinda to shake those memories and truly understand that they're no longer relevant.

Putting numbers to it, I see PS Kawhi as a +0.5-1.5 def and PS Jordan as +2.5-3.5. Moving on.

Better Rebounder This I absolutely agree. Only point of contention here is that 6.4 rpg is more valuable as a guard than 6.4 rpg as a forward. How much? Has there ever been a good analysis done on that? Either way I think Kawhi has a big enough edge that it doesn't matter

Now your original claim was that you could replace Kawhi with Jordan in 91 and the Bulls would still win. I think the silver lining here is just how much better the Bulls were than the Lakers, but, how much of that was due to Jordan being a much better player than Kawhi.

I've got 91 Jordan somewhere around
+7.5-8.5 off, 2.5-3.5 def

and I've got 19 Kawhi somewhere around
+4.5-5.5 off, +0.5-1.5 def

Taking the averages, replacing a +11 player with a +6 player is a huge deal, especially when you consider how much they relied on Jordan's exceptional playmaking in that series. He was basically playing PG.

Looking at just the finals.
Jordan: 31.2 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 11.4 apg, 2.8 stl, 1.4 blk, 3.6 tov, on +6%TS
Kawhi: 28.5 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 2.0 stl, 1.2 blk, 3.0 tov, on +5% TS

Would Kawhi really have been capable of taking on that huge playmaking role and playing it so perfectly? The Bulls were a lot better than the Lakers, but I'm not so sure.

You should Use pts/100, AST%, etc.

MJ looks even better when you adjust for pace.

Sure.

RS
Kawhi: 37.5 ppg, 11.6 trb%, 16.4 ast%, 2.5 stl%, 1.0 blk%, 8.4 tov% on +5% TS
Jordan: 42.7 ppg, 9.5 trb%, 25.2 ast%, 3.1 stl%, 1.7 stl%, 8.7 tov% on +6% TS

PS
Kawhi: 39.0 ppg, 12.8 trb%, 19.3 ast%, 2.1 stl%, 1.8 blk%, 11.1 tov% on +6% TS
Jordan: 41.8 ppg, 9.9 trb%, 36.7 ast%, 3.2 stl%, 2.4 blk%, 8.9 tov% on +5% TS

Anyone know where to find per possession stats for the finals? I can't find it on bbref.

I couldn’t find them, but it’s relatively easy to calculate them since we have the estimated pace for both series. I’ll put the method on hide so anyone who wants to read it, feel free to do it.

Spoiler:

Pace = Possessions a team has per 48

1991 Finals - 85.8

2019 Finals - 96.1

Then, let’s adjust it to a per-minute basis (since if their team played 100 possessions but they were on the bench for 30 of them, they didn’t really play 100, but 70 possessions instead):

1991 MJ - 44mpg

2019 Kawhi - 40.4mpg

1991 MJ (possessions per game) - 78.6

2019 Kawhi - 80.8

Now adjust that to PER 100 (basically 100/possessions per minute above, in Michael’s case 100/78.6, which gives it 1.27, then multiply all his stats by that). Points, for example:

1991 MJ (per game) - 31.2PPG

1991 MJ (Per 100) - 39.6PPG

2019 Kawhi (per game) - 28.5PPG

2019 Kawhi (Per 100) - 35.2PPG

I did this basically in a hurry and with rounded numbers, but they’re not gonna change much even if you do it perfectly:

1991 MJ - 39.6PPG 8.4RPG 14.5APG 4.6TOV

2019 Kawhi - 35.2PPG 12.1RPG 5.2APG 3.7TOV

[DatAsh]

Going off what Franco showed

RS
Kawhi: 37.5 PPG, 10.3 RPG, 4.7 APG, 2.5 SPG, 0.6 BPG, 2.8 TPG on +5% TS
Jordan: 42.7 PPG, 8.1 RPG, 7.5 APG, 3.7 SPG, 1.4 BPG, 3.3 TPG on +6% TS

*Jordan shot slightly more efficiently on considerably more volume. Kawhi was the much better rebounder, but the gap in playmaking is even bigger. Kawhi turned the ball over less, which is a huge positive, but I think it has to do with his lack of playmaking more than his scoring efficiency (TOV% is a part of scoring efficiency too)

PS
Kawhi: 39.0 ppg, 11.6 RBG, 5.0 APG, 2.1 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 3.9 on +6% TS
Jordan: 41.8 ppg, 8.5 RBG, 11.2 APG, 3.2 SPG, 1.8 BPG, 3.4 TPG on +5% TS

*Much closer in the playoffs. Jordan again shot slightly more efficiency (especially taking into account the playmaking), though this time the difference in volume was much less. Kawhi was a moderately better rebounder. The postseason difference in playmaking is massive, and even with Jordan's extra shooting volume, he still turned the ball over less.

Finals
Kawhi: 35.2 PPG, 12.1 RPG, 5.2 APG, 2.5 SPG, 1.5 BPG, 3.7 TOV on +5% TS
Jordan: 39.7 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 14.5 APG, 3.6 SPG, 1.8 BPG, 4.6 TOV on +6% TS

*Blowout win for Jordan here. Moderately more shooting bottom on slightly better efficiency. Again, Kawhi is a much better rebounder, but everything else is heavily in Jordan's favor. The extra turnovers don't really bother me that much given than Jordan is throwing almost triple the assists.

*kinda surprising that their efficiencies are so dead even, though Jordan tends to do it on slightly more volume and slightly more turnovers.


Then we get to defense, where again Jordan is clearly the better of the two. Man defense is close, I'll give you that, but 91 Jordan's help defense is several levels above 19 Kawhi's. I generally don't for steal and block numbers, as I think they tend to overrate gamblers, but guys like Jordan and Pippen were also playing fundamentally sound defense while also racking up mind bogging steal and block statistics. In their case, I do see it as evidence for how truly great their help defense was(especially when working together.

Now, this has been someone of a tangent to the Russell vs Leonard debate, but I feel like the "subbing in Kawhi for Jordan and the Bulls still winning" was kinda a sly way to say that Kawhi = Jordan and therefor must be better than Russell.

A couple things on this,
1. A lot of people on this board don't consider Jordan to be better than Russell, myself included.
2. Given that Jordan was both a much better offensive player, and much better defensive player, I don't thing it's a guarantee at all that the Bulls beat the Lakers with Kawhi.

[inDe_eD]

I get that this is the player comparison board, but wtf are people taking a Leonard vs. Russell comparison so seriously? The leagues they played in are different by orders of magnitude. We just saw in the FIBA world cup that Giannis, arguably the best player in the game right now and at the peak of his powers, got completely outplayed by guys who can't even play in the nba (Scola, Deladova). A few rule changes, a bad coach/gameplan and all of the sudden a guy who dominates at the highest level just looks pedestrian. It's hard enough to compare guys in the same league when there are already so many factors that need to be controlled for like teammates, injuries, scheme, etc.. Adding in Era, like it's a single factor that can be adjusted for, vastly oversimplifies the conversation to the point of absurdity.

For whatever it's worth, I think Kawhi is a better player than Russell would be in this era, and Russell was better than Kawhi would be in his.

[Jiminy Glick]

Does anyone have a view on how you had to dribble during the Russell era with having your hand on the top of the ball? I would assume that makes defense easier. This could be correlated with the low fg% from those years. Though again I went with Russell because of athleticism, post, perimeter, and transition defense, passing, and rebounding.

[AussieBuck]

Seems a bit of a stretch to credit Leonard with shutting down Giannis for his massive effort in escorting his man for a couple of feet towards Gasol. Having said that even if Kawhi could guard Giannis one on one, it wouldn't be an argument to have him anywhere near a legit GOAT candidate and the greatest defensive outlier ever (with respect to KG for center level impact at PF). Spot the new NBA fan.

[inDe_eD]

Seems a bit of a stretch to credit Leonard with shutting down Giannis for his massive effort in escorting his man for a couple of feet towards Gasol. Having said that even if Kawhi could guard Giannis one on one, it wouldn't be an argument to have him anywhere near a legit GOAT candidate and the greatest defensive outlier ever (with respect to KG for center level impact at PF). Spot the new NBA fan.

Of course he didn't shut him down all by himself. He still was the key to making that defense on Giannis work. You have to be smart, fast, long, and strong as hell to body up Giannis like that, all while not getting foul trouble. There were multiple guys that were able to play the help role (Ibaka, Gasol, Siakam, etc.), there was only one guy that could play up on Giannis like that though. Watching Danny Green try the same thing gave me nightmares.

A lot of crazy takes about Kawhi's defense on this board. The man's been a key part of a top 5 defense every single year of his career.