#26 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

Moderators: Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier

liamliam1234
Senior
Posts: 679
And1: 663
Joined: Jul 24, 2019

Re: #26 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#121 » by liamliam1234 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:08 am

Do guards only play on the perimeter now?

Gee, considering how much worse centres are at defending guards, it sure is strange they are not constantly pulled out to the perimeter.

Do you even try to understand other people’s point? Christ, I knew you would do that, so I even tried to really make it clear:

whether that be through a specific mismatch with a guard, or with a mismatch a guard (or some primary ball-handler) creates on Barkley.


But too much to ask, I guess.

And feel free to point to where I said Barkley would not be great. My specific contention is that it was wrong to say his defence would be less of an issue now.
User avatar
E-Balla
RealGM
Posts: 35,828
And1: 25,127
Joined: Dec 19, 2012
Location: The Poster Formerly Known As The Gotham City Pantalones
   

Re: #26 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#122 » by E-Balla » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:09 am

liamliam1234 wrote:Do guards only play on the perimeter now?

So guards are getting mismatches with bigs to post them up? Not to bring them to the perimeter?

If you got tied up in your words correct that and that's cool, if not the response to this is "yes when they have a mismatch in a big". I've never seen a guard post up Brook Lopez in my life.

Gee, considering how much worse centres are at defending guards, it sure is strange they are not constantly pulled out to the perimeter.

THIS IS LITERALLY MY ARGUMENT FOR BARKLEY! Y'all are acting like guards will just get 1 on 1s with him every play down the court. I'm saying that's not what happens now to players like Brook Lopez so why expect that from Chuck?

Do you even try to understand other people’s point? Christ, I knew you would do that, so I even tried to really make it clear:

whether that be through a specific mismatch with a guard, or with a mismatch a guard (or some primary ball-handler) creates on Barkley.


But too much to ask, I guess.

And feel free to point to where I said Barkley would not be great. My specific contention is that it was wrong to say his defence would be less of an issue now.

I don't know what you think you're saying in that blurb but no that's not clear at all if what you mean isn't that guards are going to create on Barkley on the perimeter. It actually makes no sense if that's not what you're saying. Like are they going to be murdering Chuck in the post? What are you even trying to say here?
liamliam1234
Senior
Posts: 679
And1: 663
Joined: Jul 24, 2019

Re: #26 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#123 » by liamliam1234 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:35 pm

Posting up? I am sorry, somehow I doubt you are seriously suggesting that the only reason guards score in the paint is because they successfully posted up a big.

I do not understand what you are not seeing.

You understand that there is a difference between man defence and team defence.

You understand that modern offences are better than ever at exploiting defences and targeting weak defenders (again, especially in the postseason).

Even beyond offences being better at dissecting defences, I think you also understand that offences are more dynamic than ever and accordingly require more dynamic defence as an (attempted) counter.

You understand that because of the increased focus on the perimeter, the paint is less congested than it has ever been (which is fantastic for Barkley on offence, but on defence…).

You understand that even hiding a player like Harden on the relatively weak power forwards of today does not really make up for those defensive deficiencies, especially in the postseason.

You understand that the new offensive – for lack of a better word – zeitgeist means Barkley is not going to be able to lock onto Jae Crowder for an entire game (again, especially in the playoffs), so even if there are more Jae Crowder types than there used to be, he is almost certainly going to spend less time guarding them than he did in the 1990s.

You understand that Barkley was never a positive defender on the perimeter or in the paint/post, so is power forward Barkley even necessarily offering more on defence than Harden? Maybe, but I would not say it is clear, and my personal inclination is to say that he is worse relative to his position.

I think you also understand that Barkley never really indicated that he was exactly a “smart” defender despite his other inadequacies (e.g. Steve Nash) who you could trust to at least not get lost in the face of today’s hyper-dynamic offences.

And I hope you understand that even if Barkley is hypothetically able to avoid ever being drawn out to the perimeter, maybe by virtue of them having a defensively versatile centre, his team would rightly be terrified of the ball being passed straight to whatever big is there with him.

Barkley profiles as a Julius Randle type on defence, and I would argue he would be even more of a liability because he is not offering enough of an “advantage” on the perimeter (boy, is that ever damning with faint praise) to make up for his disadvantage in the paint. He is not disrupting ball movement. He is not locking anyone down, nor is he really contesting shots. In an era of increased offence, liabilities like that are not easily afforded. And again, he would be even more ridiculous on offence, so it could even out, but to simply say the modern state of power forwards means he would be just fine on defence is profoundly reductive and severely underselling how he would likely impact his team.
User avatar
E-Balla
RealGM
Posts: 35,828
And1: 25,127
Joined: Dec 19, 2012
Location: The Poster Formerly Known As The Gotham City Pantalones
   

Re: #26 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#124 » by E-Balla » Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:02 pm

liamliam1234 wrote:Posting up? I am sorry, somehow I doubt you are seriously suggesting that the only reason guards score in the paint is because they successfully posted up a big.

So you're saying Brook Lopez is a better defender on the perimeter than Charles Barkley? Because I asked you this before and you said that wasn't what you said. You're speaking in circles right now.

You understand that the new offensive – for lack of a better word – zeitgeist means Barkley is not going to be able to lock onto Jae Crowder for an entire game (again, especially in the playoffs), so even if there are more Jae Crowder types than there used to be, he is almost certainly going to spend less time guarding them than he did in the 1990s.

You understand that Barkley was never a positive defender on the perimeter or in the paint/post, so is power forward Barkley even necessarily offering more on defence than Harden? Maybe, but I would not say it is clear, and my personal inclination is to say that he is worse relative to his position.

I think you also understand that Barkley never really indicated that he was exactly a “smart” defender despite his other inadequacies (e.g. Steve Nash) who you could trust to at least not get lost in the face of today’s hyper-dynamic offences.

And I hope you understand that even if Barkley is hypothetically able to avoid ever being drawn out to the perimeter, maybe by virtue of them having a defensively versatile centre, his team would rightly be terrified of the ball being passed straight to whatever big is there with him.

Barkley profiles as a Julius Randle type on defence, and I would argue he would be even more of a liability because he is not offering enough of an “advantage” on the perimeter (boy, is that ever damning with faint praise) to make up for his disadvantage in the paint. He is not disrupting ball movement. He is not locking anyone down, nor is he really contesting shots. In an era of increased offence, liabilities like that are not easily afforded. And again, he would be even more ridiculous on offence, so it could even out, but to simply say the modern state of power forwards means he would be just fine on defence is profoundly reductive and severely underselling how he would likely impact his team.

I said already I know Chuck sucks and that he's probably a little better than Randle. None of what you're posting is any type of proof Barkley will be worse defensively in this era. You know what Barkley will benefit from tremendously in this era? The increased emphasis on help defense. Bad defenders don't just get isolated on each possession up the floor now to force a hard double or mismatch. Either you're underestimating how bad he was then or you're overrating modern offenses and their ability to pick on one player. IDK which it is but you haven't even attempted to argue his defense would be worse now so...
liamliam1234
Senior
Posts: 679
And1: 663
Joined: Jul 24, 2019

Re: #26 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#125 » by liamliam1234 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:24 pm

So you're saying Brook Lopez is a better defender on the perimeter than Charles Barkley? Because I asked you this before and you said that wasn't what you said. You're speaking in circles right now.


I have no idea what train of thought you are on if that is what you are getting from this.

EDIT: Okay, I think you are getting thrown off because you talked about Mutombo and Mourning on the perimeter, and I said comparing strong rim protectors / paint defenders was hardly a genuine comparison. And then I pointed out that a similar concept would apply to Capela and Brook, comparing them to Mutombo and Mourning in terms of approximate defensive role. Not the hypothetical where they go out on the perimeter while Barkley remains parked in the paint.

None of what you're posting is any type of proof Barkley will be worse defensively in this era.


That is literally impossible to prove. I have neither a time machine nor a cloning machine. Come on. All we can offer is rational arguments; there is no “proof” for how different players would respond to significant era changes.

You know what Barkley will benefit from tremendously in this era? The increased emphasis on help defense. Bad defenders don't just get isolated on each possession up the floor now to force a hard double or mismatch.


Mm, that is an okay counter in part, but I do not think there are strong indications that “help defence” prevents poor defending bigs from being playoff liabilities, at least not to the extent I feel would need to be true for Barkley to be an equal negative to what he was in the 1990s.

IDK which it is but you haven't even attempted to argue his defense would be worse now so...


... Do you just skim everything I write?
euroleague
General Manager
Posts: 8,448
And1: 1,871
Joined: Mar 26, 2014
 

Re: #26 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#126 » by euroleague » Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:20 pm

1. 49 Mikan - After some consideration, it's time for Mikan to go in. He's so much more dominant than anyone else left, he really should've been towards the back of the top 25. His competition not being good isn't his fault, and he pushed the game forward leaps and bounds with his play. As Bill Russell once said, he wouldn't be there without Mikan.
2. 98 Karl Malone - Dominant regular season and post-season, beat his rival Duncan and produced at a high clip vs Rodman. Eliminated far more stacked teams by fitting his game perfectly into the system he played. When other teams countered the system, his production suffered - blaming him for that is ridiculous, as him buying into the system was a huge part of that team.
3. 90 Isiah Thomas - One of the elite PG peaks that often gets underrated, he had a dominant post-season and led his team to an all-time great post-season run. Was a huge part of limiting MJ via the Jordan Rules, and his finals series against Portland gave his team the championship.
User avatar
LA Bird
Analyst
Posts: 3,668
And1: 3,462
Joined: Feb 16, 2015

Re: #26 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#127 » by LA Bird » Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:47 pm

With 12 votes, the totals are:

1) 93 Barkley = 15.5 points
2) 08 Paul = 13.0 points
3) 75 McAdoo = 12.0 points
T4) 49 Mikan = 9.0 points
T4) 19 Kawhi = 9.0 points
T4) 15 Paul = 9.0 points

93 Barkley wins.

Return to Player Comparisons