PC Board OT Thread Take 4 [No Politics]

[Dr Positivity]

I am not even going to lie I really don't like Djokovic. I've been a big Federer fan for 11 years now, and while those Rafa losses were painful (particularly 2009 Wimbledon and 2009 Oz), I could live with it and honestly respect him now. At least Rafa beat peak Federer.... Djokovic, while he beat peak Nadal and slightly post-prime Federer in 2011, then went on to win only 3 Slams in the next 3 years, and then from 2015-2020 has been beating up on a fairly weak circuit, especially 2015-2016 when Nadal and Federer seemed done. Then Federer/Nadal have their revival and in 2017 and Djokovic is shut out for the next eighteen months.

A lot of Djokovic's mid-decade wins don't feel earned. He beat a 34 and 35 year old Federer to the 2014 and 2015 Wimbledon and 2015 US Open. Easy to beat up on an old man, beating 2004-2009 Federer is a different ballgame. People act as if he faced 2011 competition every year....

I think 2011 Djokovic was in contention for the GOAT peak but he'll never be the overall GOAT no matter what the numbers say IMO.

I find Djokovic quite antipathetic but I've grown to respect how good he is.

Though people tend to overrate him by tiptoeing around how Federer played against a weaker competition. Those lads are not aware of that Federer is not the only one they are disrespecting. They talk about Hewitt as if Hewitt was a bad player. He was better than Thiem or del Potro or even Wavrinka. Roddick and Davydenko were better than Tsonga and Berdych.

In tennis, it's very rare to have historically good multiple players in their prime together. I wish we had a time machine and we had the chance to see the ultimate showdown between the trio (2006 or 2007 Federer, 2010 Nadal, 2011 or 2015 Djokovic).
Statistically 2010 Nadal is the worst of the lot and I'm a Federer fan myself, but I like his chances. At least his chance would be better than what his stats would suggest, that's what I mean.

They were good players and by normal person standards obviously it’s incredibly impressive the way Federer was able to dispatch them (even a smaller name like Fernando Gonzalez in 2007 Australian Open was out of his mind leading up to their match) but it’s still harder to win 3 majors and roast the field outside of majors in 2011 or 2015 than any of 2005, 2006 and 2007 (edit: I mean 2004, 2006 and 2007). Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, etc. are worse than Murray who was the 4th best player in 2011 and 3rd best player in 2015.

I think Federer is the most talented player of all time and I think that’s why it’s harder to accept he might not be the best, because eye test wise it seems like nobody has ever played better. I feel Djokovic and Nadal may be more mentally and physically resilient which makes up the difference.

[Odinn21]

They were good players and by normal person standards obviously it’s incredibly impressive the way Federer was able to dispatch them (even a smaller name like Fernando Gonzalez in 2007 Australian Open was out of his mind leading up to their match) but it’s still harder to win 3 majors and roast the field outside of majors in 2011 or 2015 than any of 2005, 2006 and 2007. All of those players are worse than Murray who was the 4th best player in 2011 and 3rd best player in 2015.

Top 10 ranked players by year-end rankings;

2019; Nadal, Djokovic, Federer, Thiem, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, Zverev, Berrettini, Agut, Monfils
2015; Djokovic, Murray, Federer, Wavrinka, Nadal, Berdych, Ferrer, Nishkori, Gasquet, Tsonga
2011; Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Murray, Ferrer, Tsonga, Berdych, Fish, Tipsarevic, Almagro
2009; Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Del Potro, Davydenko, Roddick, Soderling, Verdasco, Tsonga
2007; Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Davydenko, Ferrer, Roddick, Gonzalez, Gasquet, Nalbandian, Robredo
2005; Federer, Nadal, Roddick, Hewitt, Davydenko, Nalbandian, Agassi, Coria, Ljubicic, Gaudio

Not seeing the gap Djokovic fans claiming TBH.

[Dr Positivity]

They were good players and by normal person standards obviously it’s incredibly impressive the way Federer was able to dispatch them (even a smaller name like Fernando Gonzalez in 2007 Australian Open was out of his mind leading up to their match) but it’s still harder to win 3 majors and roast the field outside of majors in 2011 or 2015 than any of 2005, 2006 and 2007. All of those players are worse than Murray who was the 4th best player in 2011 and 3rd best player in 2015.

Top 10 ranked players by year-end rankings;

2019; Nadal, Djokovic, Federer, Thiem, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, Zverev, Berrettini, Agut, Monfils
2015; Djokovic, Murray, Federer, Wavrinka, Nadal, Berdych, Ferrer, Nishkori, Gasquet, Tsonga
2011; Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Murray, Ferrer, Tsonga, Berdych, Fish, Tipsarevic, Almagro
2009; Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Del Potro, Davydenko, Roddick, Soderling, Verdasco, Tsonga
2007; Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Davydenko, Ferrer, Roddick, Gonzalez, Gasquet, Nalbandian, Robredo
2005; Federer, Nadal, Roddick, Hewitt, Davydenko, Nalbandian, Agassi, Coria, Ljubicic, Gaudio

Not seeing the gap Djokovic fans claiming TBH.

2011 Nadal, Federer, Murray >>> 2007 Nadal, Djokovic, Davydenko. 2011 Nadal is better than 2007 Nadal (huge difference on hard court especially), older Federer is probably better than baby Djokovic (who was a year away from his 1st major), and Murray is way better than Davydenko or whoever the 4th guy is (Davydenko was not a majors threat and a place holder 4th place type of guy, IIRC). 2015 competition is actually not miles off of 2007 though depending on how you feel about 2007 Nadal vs 2015 Federer. I think 2015 depth is actually quite decent though.

04-06 the competition is MUCH easier than a year like 11. 2006 end of year is Nadal, Davydenko and Blake, 2005 it’s Nadal, Roddick and Hewitt, and 2004 it’s Roddick, Hewitt and Safin. Nadal is still good on clay but the farther you go back the more Federer can just cruise in the other 3 majors except for running into Safin once on the boom side of his boom/bust

[Odinn21]

They were good players and by normal person standards obviously it’s incredibly impressive the way Federer was able to dispatch them (even a smaller name like Fernando Gonzalez in 2007 Australian Open was out of his mind leading up to their match) but it’s still harder to win 3 majors and roast the field outside of majors in 2011 or 2015 than any of 2005, 2006 and 2007. All of those players are worse than Murray who was the 4th best player in 2011 and 3rd best player in 2015.

Top 10 ranked players by year-end rankings;

2019; Nadal, Djokovic, Federer, Thiem, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, Zverev, Berrettini, Agut, Monfils
2015; Djokovic, Murray, Federer, Wavrinka, Nadal, Berdych, Ferrer, Nishkori, Gasquet, Tsonga
2011; Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Murray, Ferrer, Tsonga, Berdych, Fish, Tipsarevic, Almagro
2009; Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Del Potro, Davydenko, Roddick, Soderling, Verdasco, Tsonga
2007; Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Davydenko, Ferrer, Roddick, Gonzalez, Gasquet, Nalbandian, Robredo
2005; Federer, Nadal, Roddick, Hewitt, Davydenko, Nalbandian, Agassi, Coria, Ljubicic, Gaudio

Not seeing the gap Djokovic fans claiming TBH.

2011 Nadal, Federer, Murray >>> 2007 Nadal, Djokovic, Davydenko. 2011 Nadal is better than 2007 Nadal (huge difference on hard court especially), older Federer is probably better than baby Djokovic (who was a year away from his 1st major), and Murray is way better than Davydenko or whoever the 4th guy is (Davydenko was not a majors threat and a place holder 4th place type of guy, IIRC). 2015 competition is actually not miles off of 2007 though depending on how you feel about 2007 Nadal vs 2015 Federer. I think 2015 depth is actually quite decent though.

04-06 the competition is MUCH easier than a year like 11. 2006 end of year is Nadal, Davydenko and Blake, 2005 it’s Nadal, Roddick and Hewitt, and 2004 it’s Roddick, Hewitt and Safin. Nadal is still good on clay but the farther you go back the more Federer can just cruise in the other 3 majors except for running into Safin once on the boom side of his boom/bust

2011 is the best of the lot, sure.

However 2015 and 2019 are not clearly better than 2005, 2007 or 2009. Roddick and Hewitt became underrated in this 'Federer played against weak competition' era. Davydenko before his injuries was better than most of top 4-7 range players such as Berdych, Medvedev, Tsonga though.

[Jaivl]

2011 Djokovic was absolutely illegal, GOAT peak.

[HeartBreakKid]

What female players would you guys put over Serena Williams?

[ardee]

2011 Djokovic was absolutely illegal, GOAT peak.

I remember this one ridiculous rally with Nadal that lasted like 2 minutes and by the end Nadal was panting and exhausted while Djokovic barely looked phased.

They've been calling him Thanovic on reddit and honestly it's fairly apt. The mental strength he's shown the last decade is something else. And again, I say this as a guy who kind of resents him for beating up on old man Federer.

[ardee]

Top 10 ranked players by year-end rankings;

2019; Nadal, Djokovic, Federer, Thiem, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, Zverev, Berrettini, Agut, Monfils
2015; Djokovic, Murray, Federer, Wavrinka, Nadal, Berdych, Ferrer, Nishkori, Gasquet, Tsonga
2011; Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Murray, Ferrer, Tsonga, Berdych, Fish, Tipsarevic, Almagro
2009; Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Del Potro, Davydenko, Roddick, Soderling, Verdasco, Tsonga
2007; Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Davydenko, Ferrer, Roddick, Gonzalez, Gasquet, Nalbandian, Robredo
2005; Federer, Nadal, Roddick, Hewitt, Davydenko, Nalbandian, Agassi, Coria, Ljubicic, Gaudio

Not seeing the gap Djokovic fans claiming TBH.

2011 Nadal, Federer, Murray >>> 2007 Nadal, Djokovic, Davydenko. 2011 Nadal is better than 2007 Nadal (huge difference on hard court especially), older Federer is probably better than baby Djokovic (who was a year away from his 1st major), and Murray is way better than Davydenko or whoever the 4th guy is (Davydenko was not a majors threat and a place holder 4th place type of guy, IIRC). 2015 competition is actually not miles off of 2007 though depending on how you feel about 2007 Nadal vs 2015 Federer. I think 2015 depth is actually quite decent though.

04-06 the competition is MUCH easier than a year like 11. 2006 end of year is Nadal, Davydenko and Blake, 2005 it’s Nadal, Roddick and Hewitt, and 2004 it’s Roddick, Hewitt and Safin. Nadal is still good on clay but the farther you go back the more Federer can just cruise in the other 3 majors except for running into Safin once on the boom side of his boom/bust

2011 is the best of the lot, sure.

However 2015 and 2019 are not clearly better than 2005, 2007 or 2009. Roddick and Hewitt became underrated in this 'Federer played against weak competition' era. Davydenko before his injuries was better than most of top 4-7 range players such as Berdych, Medvedev, Tsonga though.

I agree... Roddick especially is an all-time talent who just never translated it into wins because Federer always waxed him.

[Dr Positivity]

2011 Nadal, Federer, Murray >>> 2007 Nadal, Djokovic, Davydenko. 2011 Nadal is better than 2007 Nadal (huge difference on hard court especially), older Federer is probably better than baby Djokovic (who was a year away from his 1st major), and Murray is way better than Davydenko or whoever the 4th guy is (Davydenko was not a majors threat and a place holder 4th place type of guy, IIRC). 2015 competition is actually not miles off of 2007 though depending on how you feel about 2007 Nadal vs 2015 Federer. I think 2015 depth is actually quite decent though.

04-06 the competition is MUCH easier than a year like 11. 2006 end of year is Nadal, Davydenko and Blake, 2005 it’s Nadal, Roddick and Hewitt, and 2004 it’s Roddick, Hewitt and Safin. Nadal is still good on clay but the farther you go back the more Federer can just cruise in the other 3 majors except for running into Safin once on the boom side of his boom/bust

2011 is the best of the lot, sure.

However 2015 and 2019 are not clearly better than 2005, 2007 or 2009. Roddick and Hewitt became underrated in this 'Federer played against weak competition' era. Davydenko before his injuries was better than most of top 4-7 range players such as Berdych, Medvedev, Tsonga though.

I agree... Roddick especially is an all-time talent who just never translated it into wins because Federer always waxed him.

I remember the American broadcasts were funny during Federer Roddick matches cause they always wanted Roddick to win so much and they overreacted to every momentum turn his way like he was going to take over, but everyone knew deep down he was doomed.

I remember thinking Safin had most talent of the non Federer guys from that period like him, Roddick and Hewitt but was ultimate hot head enigma, like Rasheed of tennis. Him with Hewitt's heart/motor would be like Nadal/Djokovic. Still 2 majors though.

[CumberlandPosey]

What female players would you guys put over Serena Williams?

steffi,maybe henin just for backhand.thats about it.seles,navratilova come close.williams is just a beast.

[GSP]

Wow what a robbery. Reyes won that

Bones performances under Usada is mad shady. Thought he lost his last 2 fights and arguably 1st Gus fight too

[ronnymac2]

Wow what a robbery. Reyes won that

Bones performances under Usada is mad shady. Thought he lost his last 2 fights and arguably 1st Gus fight too

That judge that gave it to Jones 4-1 though...

[GSP]

Wow what a robbery. Reyes won that

Bones performances under Usada is mad shady. Thought he lost his last 2 fights and arguably 1st Gus fight too

That judge that gave it to Jones 4-1 though...

Prolly will go down in contention for worst scorecard of the year

2 judges gave him the 2nd round BTW

absolutely 0 case for him winning rounds 1 or 2

[Jaivl]

uNdEfEaTeD gOaT

[HeartBreakKid]

Poor Reyes, it's going to be tough to duplicate a performance like that.

[NinjaSheppard]

I am not even going to lie I really don't like Djokovic. I've been a big Federer fan for 11 years now, and while those Rafa losses were painful (particularly 2009 Wimbledon and 2009 Oz), I could live with it and honestly respect him now. At least Rafa beat peak Federer.... Djokovic, while he beat peak Nadal and slightly post-prime Federer in 2011, then went on to win only 3 Slams in the next 3 years, and then from 2015-2020 has been beating up on a fairly weak circuit, especially 2015-2016 when Nadal and Federer seemed done. Then Federer/Nadal have their revival and in 2017 and Djokovic is shut out for the next eighteen months.

A lot of Djokovic's mid-decade wins don't feel earned. He beat a 34 and 35 year old Federer to the 2014 and 2015 Wimbledon and 2015 US Open. Easy to beat up on an old man, beating 2004-2009 Federer is a different ballgame. People act as if he faced 2011 competition every year....

I think 2011 Djokovic was in contention for the GOAT peak but he'll never be the overall GOAT no matter what the numbers say IMO.

This whole post is a complete joke.

The idea that Djokovic beat weak competition is absolutely laughable especially when compared to Federer.

Djokovic has 4 slam wins where he didn't have to beat a member of the big 4 in the Final. Thiem, Anderson, Del Potro and Tsonga. In 2 of those he beat Federer in straights before winning (including 08 during Federer's prime) and in another he beat a healthy Nadal coming off a slam win while he held 2 out of 4 slams. He had one easy win which was the 2018 US Open and even there he had to beat a healthy Del Potro in the Final. Federer got half a decade of beating absolute mugs before Djokovic came on the scene and while Rafa was still young clay specialist and even in his peak, Rafa still beat him consistently.

Djokovic being "shut out" involved him suffering an elbow injury and recovering. The way you spun it is also hilarious. Federer's "revival" was largely due to Djokovic getting injured. Federer won two slams in Australia where even in his prime he wasn't touching Djokovic. His other win was at Wimbledon where again he wouldn't have been favored over Djokovic. There was no difference between 2016-17 Fed and 2014-15 Federer outside of the fact that the superior player wasn't there to beat him at the tournaments he won. We'd have called 2014-15 "Federer's revival" if Djokovic was hurt and he won Wimbledons and the US Open.

If you want to argue that Federer is the greatest of all time that's fine but the idea that he played tougher competition than Djokovic is not supported by reality. Djokovic was born the same year as Andy Murray and within a year of Nadal. Those are his peers. There simply isn't anyone at that level who was born in Federer's age group.

Djokovic wasn't beating plugs like Fernando Gonzalez in the Finals of the Australian Open like Federer got to. He didn't have the luxury of playing Cilic in multiple slam Finals and if he did get to play someone like Ken Anderson it was only because he had to beat Rafa in 5 sets to get there.

This doesn't even take into account that Djokovic had to win his slams in an era where he would routinely have to beat 2 of the big 4 to get the slam. In 2015 he beat Rafa in straights on Clay and Murray in the Semis and had a runner up plaque to show for it because he still had to beat Wawrinka in the Final. A lot tougher than beating 50 year old Agassi.

[GSP]

Poor Reyes, it's going to be tough to duplicate a performance like that.

I think he can. If anything he might put a better one now that he has 5 round experience. Bones cant take him down when theyre fresh and itll be standing mostly. Even when Reyes was gassed he struggled hard and he isnt a good enough grappler to capitalize on the brief mat returns he got to work on the mat. Bones standup has always been meh out of the clinch. He throws alot but his boxing is horrible and relies on volume and durability. Reyes and Santos both showed that if u throw kicks he has issues and hes always struggled defending kicks but hes been in such a poor division over the years most couldnt capitalize on it. Lhw/Hw have been horrible for the most part and Lhw only recently started getting prospects when it was barren for many years. Bones also struggles with counters and Reyes is prolly the best counter puncher in the division. His footwork and defense is really good too

[Clyde Frazier]

PARASITE

[HeartBreakKid]

Poor Reyes, it's going to be tough to duplicate a performance like that.

I think he can. If anything he might put a better one now that he has 5 round experience. Bones cant take him down when theyre fresh and itll be standing mostly. Even when Reyes was gassed he struggled hard and he isnt a good enough grappler to capitalize on the brief mat returns he got to work on the mat. Bones standup has always been meh out of the clinch. He throws alot but his boxing is horrible and relies on volume and durability. Reyes and Santos both showed that if u throw kicks he has issues and hes always struggled defending kicks but hes been in such a poor division over the years most couldnt capitalize on it. Lhw/Hw have been horrible for the most part and Lhw only recently started getting prospects when it was barren for many years. Bones also struggles with counters and Reyes is prolly the best counter puncher in the division. His footwork and defense is really good too

I mean it literally looked like torture for the guy, he was going at such a crazy pace. I mean it in a literal sense that it is going to be tough to fight that kind of fight again.

Jones might adapt, and there is the risk of getting finished in rounds 4 and 5 for Reyes. It was a very competitive fight even though it should have went to Reyes.

[Dr Positivity]

Wow the swing from my least favorite BP nominee (1917) to Parasite is huge. Great job by the Academy