Post#140 » by Ginoboleee » Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:51 pm
I'm back.
Hope you liked my post up above (from a couple days ago).
This time I would like to compare the RealGM 2020 Top 100 with an awesome RealGM project I just discovered (I am a noob after all) which is the Cumulative POY Share from RealGM. Granted, this is a bit of apples to oranges. It is entirely possible that an ATG player rarely or even never was a top POY. But it does make you stop and wonder why that correspondence should, or should not, be the case. I guess in RGM lingo, the question is how great can you be overall without a particularly great yearly peak to get onto the POY radar. Also, it is possible that these RGM projects were based on significantly different voter pools. But I doubt it lol.
Personally, I am particularly interested in how these RGM lists compare with (what I am calling) the Pop75 (the 90 ATG players that appear on 1 or more of the 4 75th Anniversary-related lists that I compiled), but for the most part I will set that aside for now, and mostly focus on the interesting discrepancies between the two RGM projects.
Group 1: 65 players that appear on all three lists. We will call them "The ATG Usual Suspects". I assume there is no immediate need to list them right now.
Group 2: 8 players on the rebooted "Arts Gilmore All-Stars". These players are in the RGM100 (first number) and the first 100 of the RGMcPOY (second number, after name), but are not in the Pop75.
These "AGAS" are apparantly the most important missing players from the more widely known 75th Anniversary lists.
*40. Artis Gilmore (49)
*57. Bob Lanier (55)
81. Ben Wallace (91)
83. Grant Hill (59)
*84. Sidney Moncrief (52)
94. Cliff Hagan (53)
*95. Nikola Jokic (33)
*98. Draymond Green (63)
(*Asterisks are the players from this group that make my own Top 100.)
Group 3: RGM has overrated some players that elsewhere RGM has properly rated. Or maybe it is the reverse? These players are in the RGM100 (first number) but outside the first 100 of the RGMcPOY (second number, after name) - and yet all of them are actually in the Pop75. I guess the advocates of these players as ATGs are down-weighting, or simply punting, on POY-type considerations. We will call this the "Reggie Miller's Sneaky-Low-Peak All-Stars." Seems like a nicer name than the "Vince Carter Compilers." (Sure it is possible to have a high Peak but be 6th or 7th best in most of your seasons, but 'cmon now, really?)
39. Reggie Miller (129)
47. Paul Pierce (116)
50. Ray Allen (112)
68. Alex English (117)
69. Vince Carter (130)
92. Carmelo Anthony (128)
Or maybe the POY crowd is onto something, and everybody else is overrating these otherwise solid special players into a tier that is a bit too high. RayRay (and maybe Reggie) should qualify as a specialist, hence low POY relevance. But what is everybody else's excuse? Again, as per POY, these are the cumulative share ranks, meaning the player did get much in the way of a Top 5 vote in any particular season. I don't know about you, but if a player rarely is a Top 5 player within any particular season it is going to be hard for me to get too excited about their Pantheon status.
(All the players from this group make my own Top 100, but I will be downrating all of them when I do my upcoming revision.)
Group 4: Same as Group 3, but this time the RGM POY crowd never threw a SINGLE given season top 5 vote their way. Not one. Mostly these are 2nd and 3rd bananas from championship teams, fair enough. But still, it's one of those things that make you go hmm. Rodman the specialist gets a pass here, as do (maybe) the Championship Robins. Thus this group gets called the "Hanging With The Chief All-Stars" all of whom are grateful for the Championship Bias built into ATG considerations. Meanwhile, DameTime be like "uh-oh".
49. Pau Gasol (n/a)
62. Robert Parish (n/a)
79. Dennis Rodman (n/a)
85. Damian Lillard (n/a)
86. Chris Bosh (n/a)
91. James Worthy (n/a)
(All the players from this group make my own Top 100, but I will be downrating DameTime for sure when I do my upcoming revision. And I really need to think through the weighting of Championship Robins in general. A decade ago there was space for these cats in an ATG list, but with another generation chasing up now, not so sure anymore.)
Group 5: The "KJ All-Stars" are similar to Group 2, but outside the Top 100 POY tier. So there is certainly something funky going on somewhere. The 75th Anniversary Lists totally punted on these guys, and even RGM's POY crowd had questions too. But given that the RGM POY ranks are close enough to the Top 100, I'd say these are relatively minor discrepancies. Right?
46. Chauncey Billups (107)
75. Kevin Johnson (100)
*76. Bobby Jones (103)
99. Walt Bellamy (119)
(*Asterisks are the players from this group that make my own Top 100.)
Group 6: RGM might need their own Player's Only Meeting. There will always be edge cases, fair enough. But the discrepancy between the RGM 100 rank (first number) and the RGM POY Cumulative rank (number after player name) is quite striking. These two legends somehow ended up (just barely) on the sidelines in the RGM 2020 Top 100. And given that Luka is certain to join the fun, looks like at least 3 players who currently are on the RGM 2020 should be expected to step aside by next time around. Unless these are special cases where the yearly peak shouldn't matter so much. But why would that be? Please remind me. I am new, after all.
103. Bernard King (57)
104. Tiny Archibald (73)
(Both players from this group make my own Top 100, though Nate is on thin ice.)
Life it is not just a series of calculations and a sum total of statistics, it's about experience, it's about participation, it is something more complex and more interesting than what is obvious.
Libeskind
Statistics are no substitute for judgment.
Clay
