LeBron James' 4-6 Record is Equally As Impressive as Jordan's 6-0

[DCasey91]

Lol at putting up srs ratings in the 90’s. So many cupcake teams to boost the obvious inflated records.

Remember MJ played in the playoffs with a losing record that wasn’t even in the 90’s.

94-01 is suspect on peer depth not to mention the financial disaster/broken CBA, Tax, Bird rules etc etc.

[DCasey91]

2008 Celtics
2009 Lakers
2010 Celtics/Lakers
2012 Young KD was torching (beat the Spurs in 6 like a young Shaq) 30/6/2 in the finals 54.8% FG. Wouldn’t that be the highest scorer that the Bulls ever come across as a one option?
2013 Spurs
2014 Spurs
2016 - 2019 Warriors

What are we doing here? lol. Parity was so much better

That’s 4 legit as can be teams with multiple years of success, two dynasties, one team with back to back finals wins not including the Heat and the ATG defensive team the Celtics could have been a two time champ and the young OKC doesn’t even have to put up there.... Oh and Lebron’s teams as well so that’s five over 14 seasons since 07.

But sure give MJ Mo ffing Williams, Hughes, big Z or old man Shaq see how successful he would be.

Flip side is Lebron gets Pippen, Grant, Krause, Phil and the gang.

Both sides can never come to a middle path because both sides can’t admit the obvious.

[migya]

Lol at putting up srs ratings in the 90’s. So many cupcake teams to boost the obvious inflated records.

Remember MJ played in the playoffs with a losing record that wasn’t even in the 90’s.

94-01 is suspect on peer depth not to mention the financial disaster/broken CBA, Tax, Bird rules etc etc.

During Lebron's career there have been teams that made the playoffs with losing records.

There have been far more awful teams, with awful records, throughout Lebron's career more than Jordan's. There is day more extremes nowadays than in previous eras.

[DCasey91]

Lol at putting up srs ratings in the 90’s. So many cupcake teams to boost the obvious inflated records.

Remember MJ played in the playoffs with a losing record that wasn’t even in the 90’s.

94-01 is suspect on peer depth not to mention the financial disaster/broken CBA, Tax, Bird rules etc etc.

During Lebron's career there have been teams that made the playoffs with losing records.

There have been far more awful teams, with awful records, throughout Lebron's career more than Jordan's. There is day more extremes nowadays than in previous eras.

Expansion teams?

How are people comparing finals opponents is amusing to me.

Isn’t the two worst records in NBA history come from that era 11-71?

I don’t know there was def some cupcake teams in the 90’s

[migya]

2008 Celtics
2009 Lakers
2010 Celtics/Lakers
2012 Young KD was torching (beat the Spurs in 6 like a young Shaq)
2013 Spurs
2014 Spurs
2016 - 2019 Warriors

What are we doing here? lol. Parity was so much better

That’s 4 legit as can be teams with multiple years of success, two dynasties, one team with back to back finals wins not including the Heat and the ATG defensive team the Celtics could have been a two time champ and the young OKC doesn’t even have to put up there.... Oh and Lebron’s teams as well so that’s five over 14 seasons since 07.

But sure give MJ Mo ffing Williams, Hughes, big Z or old man Shaq see how successful he would be.

Flip side is Lebron gets Pippen, Grant, Krause, Phil and the gang.

Both sides can never come to a middle path because both sides can’t admit the obvious.

That shows disparity. 2008-10 Celtics had the hall of famers still in their primes.

Lakers were no better than 1997-98 Utah, they just didn't face Jordan's Bulls. Who were the great teams opposing the Spurs in 2013-14?

[DCasey91]

2008 Celtics
2009 Lakers
2010 Celtics/Lakers
2012 Young KD was torching (beat the Spurs in 6 like a young Shaq)
2013 Spurs
2014 Spurs
2016 - 2019 Warriors

What are we doing here? lol. Parity was so much better

That’s 4 legit as can be teams with multiple years of success, two dynasties, one team with back to back finals wins not including the Heat and the ATG defensive team the Celtics could have been a two time champ and the young OKC doesn’t even have to put up there.... Oh and Lebron’s teams as well so that’s five over 14 seasons since 07.

But sure give MJ Mo ffing Williams, Hughes, big Z or old man Shaq see how successful he would be.

Flip side is Lebron gets Pippen, Grant, Krause, Phil and the gang.

Both sides can never come to a middle path because both sides can’t admit the obvious.

That shows disparity. 2008-10 Celtics had the hall of famers still in their primes.

Lakers were no better than 1997-98 Utah, they just didn't face Jordan's Bulls. Who were the great teams opposing the Spurs in 2013-14?
Lakers were no better than 1997-98 Utah, they just didn't face Jordan's Bulls. Who were the great teams opposing the Spurs in 2013-14?

Lakers were better due to the fact Kobe was in his peak/prime.

Umm Heat? 2013 both were great. 2014 Spurs would have beaten any of MJ opponents.

You’re literally pointing out one team to get your point across you know MJ did verse 4 different other ones.

Also isn’t reasonable to assume 97-98 both teams weren’t at their best, certainly not.

Finals comp isn’t close to me. You have 3 shutouts off the bat 2017-2019.

More parity in Lebron’s era it’s very simple for MJ stans to understand.

[migya]

2008 Celtics
2009 Lakers
2010 Celtics/Lakers
2012 Young KD was torching (beat the Spurs in 6 like a young Shaq)
2013 Spurs
2014 Spurs
2016 - 2019 Warriors

What are we doing here? lol. Parity was so much better

That’s 4 legit as can be teams with multiple years of success, two dynasties, one team with back to back finals wins not including the Heat and the ATG defensive team the Celtics could have been a two time champ and the young OKC doesn’t even have to put up there.... Oh and Lebron’s teams as well so that’s five over 14 seasons since 07.

But sure give MJ Mo ffing Williams, Hughes, big Z or old man Shaq see how successful he would be.

Flip side is Lebron gets Pippen, Grant, Krause, Phil and the gang.

Both sides can never come to a middle path because both sides can’t admit the obvious.

That shows disparity. 2008-10 Celtics had the hall of famers still in their primes.

Lakers were no better than 1997-98 Utah, they just didn't face Jordan's Bulls. Who were the great teams opposing the Spurs in 2013-14?
Lakers were no better than 1997-98 Utah, they just didn't face Jordan's Bulls. Who were the great teams opposing the Spurs in 2013-14?

Lakers were better due to the fact Kobe was in his peak/prime.

Umm Heat? 2013 both were great. 2014 Spurs would have beaten any of MJ opponents.

You’re literally pointing out one team to get your point across you know MJ did verse 4 different other ones.

Also isn’t reasonable to assume 97-98 both teams weren’t at their best, certainly not.

Finals comp isn’t close to me. You have 3 shutouts off the bat 2017-2019.

More parity in Lebron’s era it’s very simple for MJ stans to understand.

I meant which West teams opposed the Spurs those years? OKC was the only one and they were flawed and still win alot, showing how low talented at the time the league was. Durant was an average defender at best those years, Westbrook was worse than he is now. Harden was the sixth man, Ibaka had no three point shot and no scoring, Perkins was a third string Center etc.

That Spurs team those two years, 2013 and 2014:
36yr old Duncan, 35yr old Ginobili, flawed Parker leading scorer, 21yr old Kawhi pre prime little scoring Kawhi, rule player Danny Green, and so on. They had arguably the greatest coach ever, give them that.

91 Lakers:
Greatest playmaker of alltime Magic, hall of fame Worthy, allstar caliber Byron Scott, good big Sam Perkins, young but above average Divac, and some nude bench players.

92 Blazers have been covered previously in this thread.

93 Suns:
mvp Barkley, allstar Defensive 2nd team and most three point makes Majerle, top ten PG ever KJ, allstar caliber Ceballos and Dumas, just ending his prime Chambers, Ainge, and a great bench.

96 Sonics have been conferred previously in this thread.

97 Jazz:
Dream Teamers and to 2 at least top 5 at their position alltime Stockton and Malone, great shooter and comparable to allstar SGs Hornacek and little talent after that but ride players that fit. They had arguably the greatest coach ever Sloan.


Think that's more talented teams than thirst Spurs.

[twyzted]

The teams have been FAR more evenly matched in Lebron's era. Look at the standard deviation of winning percentages for Jordan's career and Lebron's. It's not even close.

Lebron has played his prime against 25%+ players for outside the United States. A truly globalized game. As late as 1997-1998, the NBA was less than 5% non US players!!

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/nba-news/532296/new-record-number-74-europeans-nba/

https://www.businessinsider.com/growing-number-of-foreign-born-players-in-nba-slows-2018-10

(scroll down for the chart)

https://www.businessinsider.com/nba-foreign-born-players-2016-11

(again, scroll down for the chart)

The thing is european/south american players didnt join the the nba at that time because they got higher pay playing in europe and because if they played in nba the could not play for their national teams.

Here is srs for the ec teams Lebrons teams played to get to the finals
11 1.01 4.83 6.53 = 4.12
12 2.39 2.60 2.26 = 2.4
13 -1.83 -.02 3.34 = 0.49
14 -.89 -1.58 3.63 = 0.39
15 -.40 2.54 4.75 = 2.3
16 .43 3.49 4.08 = 2.6
17 .03 3.65 2.25 = 1.97
18 1.18 7.29 3.23 = 3.9

ec teams Jordan played
89 7.95 3.62 6.24 = 5.93
90 -1.06 4.23 5.41 = 2.86
91 -.43 -.39 3.08 = .75
92 -3.94 3.67 5.34 = 1.69
93 -.67 6.19 5.87 = 3.8
96 1.46 2.24 5.4 = 3 7
97 1.77 5.52 5.56 = 4.28
98 1.88 2.45 6.25 = 3.52

This isnt really close outside of 2011
Jordan #1 #2 #5 #6 #7 #8

Only team who Lebron played who is better then any team the bulls faced in the finals are the warriors with Durant.

In 97-98 7.6% players were foreign.

In the last link the chart is for all foreign player who have played in the nba, not only who are currently in the nba.

I must have missed MJ's finals appearance in 1989 and 1990.

The 2014 Spurs, 2015 Warriors, 2016 Warriors are also better than any MJ finals team.

I didnt say Jordan made the finals in those years. I said "ec teams Jordan played" but he made the ecf in those years so i included them.

I disagree on 14,15,16 teams are any better then the teams the bulls played outside of 98 jazz, but the 20 heat is by far the worst either played.

[falcolombardi]

That shows disparity. 2008-10 Celtics had the hall of famers still in their primes.

Lakers were no better than 1997-98 Utah, they just didn't face Jordan's Bulls. Who were the great teams opposing the Spurs in 2013-14?
Lakers were no better than 1997-98 Utah, they just didn't face Jordan's Bulls. Who were the great teams opposing the Spurs in 2013-14?

Lakers were better due to the fact Kobe was in his peak/prime.

Umm Heat? 2013 both were great. 2014 Spurs would have beaten any of MJ opponents.

You’re literally pointing out one team to get your point across you know MJ did verse 4 different other ones.

Also isn’t reasonable to assume 97-98 both teams weren’t at their best, certainly not.

Finals comp isn’t close to me. You have 3 shutouts off the bat 2017-2019.

More parity in Lebron’s era it’s very simple for MJ stans to understand.

I meant which West teams opposed the Spurs those years? OKC was the only one and they were flawed and still win alot, showing how low talented at the time the league was. Durant was an average defender at best those years, Westbrook was worse than he is now. Harden was the sixth man, Ibaka had no three point shot and no scoring, Perkins was a third string Center etc.

That Spurs team those two years, 2013 and 2014:
36yr old Duncan, 35yr old Ginobili, flawed Parker leading scorer, 21yr old Kawhi pre prime little scoring Kawhi, rule player Danny Green, and so on. They had arguably the greatest coach ever, give them that.

91 Lakers:
Greatest playmaker of alltime Magic, hall of fame Worthy, allstar caliber Byron Scott, good big Sam Perkins, young but above average Divac, and some nude bench players.

92 Blazers have been covered previously in this thread.

93 Suns:
mvp Barkley, allstar Defensive 2nd team and most three point makes Majerle, top ten PG ever KJ, allstar caliber Ceballos and Dumas, just ending his prime Chambers, Ainge, and a great bench.

96 Sonics have been conferred previously in this thread.

97 Jazz:
Dream Teamers and to 2 at least top 5 at their position alltime Stockton and Malone, great shooter and comparable to allstar SGs Hornacek and little talent after that but ride players that fit. They had arguably the greatest coach ever Sloan.


Think that's more talented teams than thirst Spurs.

the jazz two top players were just as old as the 2014 spurs best players, and the 2014 spurs were dominant in both regular season amd playoffs

they had a better season than any of the teams you listed actually

[twyzted]

Lol at putting up srs ratings in the 90’s. So many cupcake teams to boost the obvious inflated records.

Remember MJ played in the playoffs with a losing record that wasn’t even in the 90’s.

94-01 is suspect on peer depth not to mention the financial disaster/broken CBA, Tax, Bird rules etc etc.

During Lebron's career there have been teams that made the playoffs with losing records.

There have been far more awful teams, with awful records, throughout Lebron's career more than Jordan's. There is day more extremes nowadays than in previous eras.

Expansion teams?

How are people comparing finals opponents is amusing to me.

Isn’t the two worst records in NBA history come from that era 11-71?

I don’t know there was def some cupcake teams in the 90’s

No the worst records ever are
12 lolcats 7-59 10.6%
73 76ers 9-73 11%
16 76ers 10-72 11%

So no 2 of 3 worst records ever came during the age of parity

[Sark]

538 also did an article on this.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

On average Jordan faced tougher competition, but Lebron faced the tougher top end competition because of the Warriors. In the end, it comes down to: Jordan went 6-0 in his championship runs, when he probably should have gone 5-1 or 4-2; Lebron is 4-6 in his championship runs, when he probably should have gone 5-5 or 6-4.

Also one of the reasons that Jordan's teams were always so good is that he usually played full 82 game seasons, and always fought for the top record, whereas Lebron almost never played full 82 game seasons, and would take time off for load management.

[Ballerhogger]

Parity in the league has been all time high in Lebrons tenure vs MJ. Beat a worn down laker team , beat the jazz twice.

[Ballerhogger]

538 also did an article on this.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

On average Jordan faced tougher competition, but Lebron faced the tougher top end competition because of the Warriors. In the end, it comes down to: Jordan went 6-0 in his championship runs, when he probably should have gone 5-1 or 4-2; Lebron is 4-6 in his championship runs, when he probably should have gone 5-5 or 6-4.

Also one of the reasons that Jordan's teams were always so good is that he usually played full 82 game seasons, and always fought for the top record, whereas Lebron almost never played full 82 game seasons, and would take time off for load management.

Yet MJ not even top 25 in minutes played …. Where Lebron is top 5 . MJ took off seasons ….. where Lebron hasn’t . That’s terrible argument

[Sark]

538 also did an article on this.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

On average Jordan faced tougher competition, but Lebron faced the tougher top end competition because of the Warriors. In the end, it comes down to: Jordan went 6-0 in his championship runs, when he probably should have gone 5-1 or 4-2; Lebron is 4-6 in his championship runs, when he probably should have gone 5-5 or 6-4.

Also one of the reasons that Jordan's teams were always so good is that he usually played full 82 game seasons, and always fought for the top record, whereas Lebron almost never played full 82 game seasons, and would take time off for load management.

Yet MJ not even top 25 in minutes played …. Where Lebron is top 5 . MJ took off seasons ….. where Lebron hasn’t . That’s terrible argument

Jordan played 80 games or more 10 times. Lebron has done it 3 times. Even in the 2 years that Jordan "took off", he was still playing professional sports just about every single day. Playing baseball is taxing on the body, despite what people think. Baseball players have tons of injuries every single year. He also had to drastically change his body's mechanics from a basketball player to a baseball player. That is actually insanely hard to do. Yes Lebron came into the league at a younger age, and logged more NBA minutes, but it's not like Jordan wasn't playing basketball every single day when he was at UNC. I guarantee you he was on the court every single day, working on his game while in college. Lebron took 2 weeks off to go to Miami for vacation in 2014. Jordan never did anything remotely close to that.

[PistolPeteJR]

538 also did an article on this.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

On average Jordan faced tougher competition, but Lebron faced the tougher top end competition because of the Warriors. In the end, it comes down to: Jordan went 6-0 in his championship runs, when he probably should have gone 5-1 or 4-2; Lebron is 4-6 in his championship runs, when he probably should have gone 5-5 or 6-4.

Also one of the reasons that Jordan's teams were always so good is that he usually played full 82 game seasons, and always fought for the top record, whereas Lebron almost never played full 82 game seasons, and would take time off for load management.

Yet MJ not even top 25 in minutes played …. Where Lebron is top 5 . MJ took off seasons ….. where Lebron hasn’t . That’s terrible argument

Jordan played 80 games or more 10 times. Lebron has done it 3 times. Even in the 2 years that Jordan "took off", he was still playing professional sports just about every single day. Playing baseball is taxing on the body, despite what people think. Baseball players have tons of injuries every single year. He also had to drastically change his body's mechanics from a basketball player to a baseball player. That is actually insanely hard to do. Yes Lebron came into the league at a younger age, and logged more NBA minutes, but it's not like Jordan wasn't playing basketball every single day when he was at UNC. I guarantee you he was on the court every single day, working on his game while in college. Lebron took 2 weeks off to go to Miami for vacation in 2014. Jordan never did anything remotely close to that.

1) Different bodily exertion.

2) It’s the mental battle, not the physical, that’s toughest.

[G35]

538 also did an article on this.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

On average Jordan faced tougher competition, but Lebron faced the tougher top end competition because of the Warriors. In the end, it comes down to: Jordan went 6-0 in his championship runs, when he probably should have gone 5-1 or 4-2; Lebron is 4-6 in his championship runs, when he probably should have gone 5-5 or 6-4.

Also one of the reasons that Jordan's teams were always so good is that he usually played full 82 game seasons, and always fought for the top record, whereas Lebron almost never played full 82 game seasons, and would take time off for load management.

Yet MJ not even top 25 in minutes played …. Where Lebron is top 5 . MJ took off seasons ….. where Lebron hasn’t . That’s terrible argument

That is the perfect argument.

Why does Lebron and other starx do load management...what is the purpose? To be fresher, healthier, and more ready when the playoffs come around. Which means the whole reason why Lebron took days off was to win in the playoffs.

So the bottom line is that taking those games off did not help Lebron win more, indicated by his W-L record in the finals. Jordan taking that year and a half off resulted in what?

Three straight titles......

[Ballerhogger]

538 also did an article on this.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/michael-jordan-faced-better-competition-than-lebron-james/

On average Jordan faced tougher competition, but Lebron faced the tougher top end competition because of the Warriors. In the end, it comes down to: Jordan went 6-0 in his championship runs, when he probably should have gone 5-1 or 4-2; Lebron is 4-6 in his championship runs, when he probably should have gone 5-5 or 6-4.

Also one of the reasons that Jordan's teams were always so good is that he usually played full 82 game seasons, and always fought for the top record, whereas Lebron almost never played full 82 game seasons, and would take time off for load management.

Yet MJ not even top 25 in minutes played …. Where Lebron is top 5 . MJ took off seasons ….. where Lebron hasn’t . That’s terrible argument

That is the perfect argument.

Why does Lebron and other starx do load management...what is the purpose? To be fresher, healthier, and more ready when the playoffs come around. Which means the whole reason why Lebron took days off was to win in the playoffs.

So the bottom line is that taking those games off did not help Lebron win more, indicated by his W-L record in the finals. Jordan taking that year and a half off resulted in what?

Three straight titles......

The bulls were cornerstone super team of the 90s.... Lebron won multiply different franchises and faced the greatest RS of all time record wise down 3-1. That will never be matched

[Nites]

In my opinion, it is not even close.

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't really care which people find more impressive but I think there's things to be said for both records. For LeBron, his 10 finals appearances came with 5 very different rosters, 5 different hc's, 8 straight finals and then won rings with 3 different franchises. All of that says something about him as a player. It implies ability to succeed with very different players/systems, leadership and durability. MJ's 6-0 speaks more than anything to dominance within the system he played in. Then you can also look into individual stats and competition which is another layer of analysis but I don't think there's a wrong answer. It just comes down to what impresses you more about what went into the records.

[Lou Fan]

The East was often pretty weak and Lebron played with some pretty decent help. I’m not sure the number of times he made it out of that conference are that impressive.

So much this. I'm supposed to be impressed by the Heatles scrounging by billion year old KG with Ray and Paul Pierce playing like bums in 7 games then getting taken 7 again PG and Hibbert. Or am I supposed to be impressed with scalps of Chauncey Billups, Al Horford, Isiah Thomas, Kyle Lowry, and rookie Jayson Tatum (he's lucky the refs bailed them against the Pacers in the first place).