Does this Kobe stance have real merit

[ScrantonBulls]

I watched some of the video. Good grief. I'm not trying to get political here, but Skap Attack kind of reminds me of a sports version of a MAGA influencer/"pundit" like Benny Johnson. Depending on who he is talking about, you know he will feverously either defend or attack the person every single time, facts and logic be damned. MJ and Kobe are his Trump. LeBron is his left winger. Anyone and everything MJ/Kobe = amazing. Anything LeBron = bad.

The guy clearly took that formula and applied it to sports. It's an easy way to grift. And of course he goes on Jason Whitlock's show Color me surprised.

[falcolombardi]

I watched some of the video. Good grief. I'm not trying to get political here, but Skap Attack kind of reminds me of a sports version of a MAGA like Benny Johnson. Depending on who he is talking about, you know he will feverously either defend or attack the person every single time, facts and logic be damned. MJ and Kobe are his Trump. LeBron is his left winger. Anyone and everything MJ/Kobe = amazing. Anything LeBron = bad.

The guy clearly took that formula and applied it to sports. It's an easy way to grift. And of course he goes on Jason Whitlock's show Color me surprised.

You would be surprised how common this sort of schtick is in social media lol

I see it everywhere from art (movies, tv, anime, etc) to sports and obviously politics

[ScrantonBulls]

I watched some of the video. Good grief. I'm not trying to get political here, but Skap Attack kind of reminds me of a sports version of a MAGA like Benny Johnson. Depending on who he is talking about, you know he will feverously either defend or attack the person every single time, facts and logic be damned. MJ and Kobe are his Trump. LeBron is his left winger. Anyone and everything MJ/Kobe = amazing. Anything LeBron = bad.

The guy clearly took that formula and applied it to sports. It's an easy way to grift. And of course he goes on Jason Whitlock's show Color me surprised.

You would be surprised how common this sort of schtick is in social media lol

I see it everywhere from art (movies, tv, anime, etc) to sports and obviously politics

Definitely. It's an easy way to grift. I'm pretty sure Skap made his career on unhinged LeBron rants.

[ScrantonBulls]

Even beyond the basketball arguments you are using being vague appeals to authority of old voters instead of any actual analysis of kobe play

What actual analysis are you talking about? You can't even have a basketball discussion without resorting to a plus/minus on/off concoction that has no basis in fact. You call all-D awards unquestionable dogma, yet you have conniption fits when your dogma RAPM or any other of your on/off nonsense is questioned because you seemingly can't understand the NBA without it.

Maybe you should actually watch the NBA.

Did you or did you not post these?:

Kobe was a extremely popular player before he was close to a star in actual play and made all D teams c5past the point it was obvious he was coasting completely on that end and focusing on offense

Calling kobe an all time great defender is a wild stretch lol

nor did he actually guard opposite stars all that often or effectively

Watch Bryant in the Finals guarding the likes of Iverson, Reggie Miller, Kerry Kittles, and Ray Allen did you? Clearly not, hence idiotic (1) statements like yours.

From 2008-09 to 2010-11, when Bryant was the ages of 30-32, the Lakers won 2 titles and were the 3rd best defensive team in the league (103.3 pts/100poss allowed), Bryant was named all-defensive 1st team all 3 seasons, only Laker named, was on the floor 72% of the time, most on the Lakers.

Yet you say Bryant was coasting on defense, didn't guard opposing stars. Idiotic (2).

why even come to a basketball discussion forum if you think all D awards are unquestionable dogma?

No one said they are unquestionable. But when a player is named all-defensive 1st team 9 times in his career, by NBA head coaches, and you say he was coasting on defense, that is idiotic statement (3).

Bryant was named to all-defensive 1st team 11 years apart (1999-00 and 2010-11), by two almost completely different sets of NBA head coaches, coaches that faced him 2-4 times a season, and game planned against him, watched film of him. That's impressive. And he was named all-defensive 1st team 7 more times in between those seasons.

Yet you make statements like this:

You cannot blindly trust voting awards, even those who are voted by coaches

Dismissing their opinions as to who the best defenders are as if you know better.

But you know what you don't do? Say who should have been name to the all-defensive team in his place.

You seem to think you know better than NBA head coaches but never show that you do. You just like to belittle their choices.

So here's your chance - every season you think Kobe Bryant should not have been named to the all-defensive 1st team tell us who should have been. And we can debate those choices.

We can call your choices silly just like you are calling those votes/opinions of NBA head coaches.

But you won't. You know why? Because you do not know the NBA. You just like being negative about the greats of the game as if you know better.

You want to belittle the voting of NBA head coaches. Fine. But tell us who you believe should have been voted in instead.

But - again - you won't. Because then we would really know how little you know of the NBA.

So let me get this straight

That straight enough for you?

You probably think Derek Jeter is one of the greatest defensive shortstops ever because of all the gold gloves he won.

[kcktiny]

You probably think Derek Jeter is one of the greatest defensive shortstops ever because of all the gold gloves he won.

Well thank you for that poignant addition to this NBA discussion.

[migya]

I watched some of the video. Good grief. I'm not trying to get political here, but Skap Attack kind of reminds me of a sports version of a MAGA influencer/"pundit" like Benny Johnson. Depending on who he is talking about, you know he will feverously either defend or attack the person every single time, facts and logic be damned. MJ and Kobe are his Trump. LeBron is his left winger. Anyone and everything MJ/Kobe = amazing. Anything LeBron = bad.

The guy clearly took that formula and applied it to sports. It's an easy way to grift. And of course he goes on Jason Whitlock's show Color me surprised.

He also has stated some facts, many about Lebron revolving around his true lack of humility and manipulation during his career.

[Primedeion]

Thanks, yeah 2008 is one of the better defensive seasons from Kobe. It's also perfectly reasonable to call him the best perimeter defender of that team, though the team wasn't good defensively only because of their perimeter defense.

Anyway, I am not going to discuss with someone who can't just talk about basketball without passive-agressive comments all around.

Calling out someone for being passive aggressive when you took a overwhelmingly positive report and decided to focus on tiny part, and in the most uncharitable and negative way you could...even though it's completely obvious that the guy was saying that Bryant had the ability to turn things up a notch and not that he didn't consistently get it done on that end. That's rich.

[One_and_Done]

I watched some of the video. Good grief. I'm not trying to get political here, but Skap Attack kind of reminds me of a sports version of a MAGA influencer/"pundit" like Benny Johnson. Depending on who he is talking about, you know he will feverously either defend or attack the person every single time, facts and logic be damned. MJ and Kobe are his Trump. LeBron is his left winger. Anyone and everything MJ/Kobe = amazing. Anything LeBron = bad.

The guy clearly took that formula and applied it to sports. It's an easy way to grift. And of course he goes on Jason Whitlock's show Color me surprised.

He also has stated some facts, many about Lebron revolving around his true lack of humility and manipulation during his career.

Yeh, because Kobe was all about humility.

[70sFan]

Thanks, yeah 2008 is one of the better defensive seasons from Kobe. It's also perfectly reasonable to call him the best perimeter defender of that team, though the team wasn't good defensively only because of their perimeter defense.

Anyway, I am not going to discuss with someone who can't just talk about basketball without passive-agressive comments all around.

Calling out someone for being passive aggressive when you took a overwhelmingly positive report and decided to focus on tiny part, and in the most uncharitable and negative way you could...even though it's completely obvious that the guy was saying that Bryant had the ability to turn things up a notch and not that he didn't consistently get it done on that end. That's rich.

My post wasn't about evaluating I Kobe's defense and as you can realise actually reading my posts in this thread, I wasn't on either side of this conflict.

All I did was saying that such characterisations are usually added only for players who don't try consistently and such players aren't elite defensively. That's all and anything else you added is just your interpretation. Have a nice day.

[Primedeion]

Thanks, yeah 2008 is one of the better defensive seasons from Kobe. It's also perfectly reasonable to call him the best perimeter defender of that team, though the team wasn't good defensively only because of their perimeter defense.

Anyway, I am not going to discuss with someone who can't just talk about basketball without passive-agressive comments all around.

Calling out someone for being passive aggressive when you took a overwhelmingly positive report and decided to focus on tiny part, and in the most uncharitable and negative way you could...even though it's completely obvious that the guy was saying that Bryant had the ability to turn things up a notch and not that he didn't consistently get it done on that end. That's rich.

My post wasn't about evaluating I Kobe's defense and as you can realise actually reading my posts in this thread, I wasn't on either side of this conflict.

All I did was saying that such characterisations are usually added only for players who don't try consistently and such players aren't elite defensively. That's all and anything else you added is just your interpretation. Have a nice day.

Riiiiiiight.

imean, if scout says he was good defensively "when he wants to be", then I wouldn't count that as a praise...

That's what you said. Not only did you somehow miss the overwhelming praise in the report, but you also tried paint it as the scout suggesting he he only played defense when wanted to, and not what he was obviously saying, which is that Bryant simply had the ability to turn things up a notch. You know exactly what you were saying buddy. You even added some cute little ellipses at the end there.

You aren't slick bruh.

[70sFan]

Calling out someone for being passive aggressive when you took a overwhelmingly positive report and decided to focus on tiny part, and in the most uncharitable and negative way you could...even though it's completely obvious that the guy was saying that Bryant had the ability to turn things up a notch and not that he didn't consistently get it done on that end. That's rich.

My post wasn't about evaluating I Kobe's defense and as you can realise actually reading my posts in this thread, I wasn't on either side of this conflict.

All I did was saying that such characterisations are usually added only for players who don't try consistently and such players aren't elite defensively. That's all and anything else you added is just your interpretation. Have a nice day.

Riiiiiiight.

imean, if scout says he was good defensively "when he wants to be", then I wouldn't count that as a praise...

That's what you said. Not only did you somehow miss the overwhelming praise in the report, but you also tried paint it as the scout suggesting he he only played defense when wanted to, and not what he was obviously saying, which is that Bryant simply had the ability to turn things up a notch. You know exactly what you were saying buddy. You even added some cute little ellipses at the end there.

You aren't slick bruh.

Feel free to believe whatever you want. I'm always amused by people who tell me what I actually believe, but no hard feelings. Have a blessing day "buddy".

[Primedeion]

My post wasn't about evaluating I Kobe's defense and as you can realise actually reading my posts in this thread, I wasn't on either side of this conflict.

All I did was saying that such characterisations are usually added only for players who don't try consistently and such players aren't elite defensively. That's all and anything else you added is just your interpretation. Have a nice day.

Riiiiiiight.

imean, if scout says he was good defensively "when he wants to be", then I wouldn't count that as a praise...

That's what you said. Not only did you somehow miss the overwhelming praise in the report, but you also tried paint it as the scout suggesting he he only played defense when wanted to, and not what he was obviously saying, which is that Bryant simply had the ability to turn things up a notch. You know exactly what you were saying buddy. You even added some cute little ellipses at the end there.

You aren't slick bruh.

Feel free to believe whatever you want. I'm always amused by people who tell me what I actually believe, but no hard feelings. Have a blessing day "buddy".

Blessing day.

I'll do that. Thanks bro.

[migya]

I watched some of the video. Good grief. I'm not trying to get political here, but Skap Attack kind of reminds me of a sports version of a MAGA influencer/"pundit" like Benny Johnson. Depending on who he is talking about, you know he will feverously either defend or attack the person every single time, facts and logic be damned. MJ and Kobe are his Trump. LeBron is his left winger. Anyone and everything MJ/Kobe = amazing. Anything LeBron = bad.

The guy clearly took that formula and applied it to sports. It's an easy way to grift. And of course he goes on Jason Whitlock's show Color me surprised.

He also has stated some facts, many about Lebron revolving around his true lack of humility and manipulation during his career.

Yeh, because Kobe was all about humility.

He wasn't about calling himself the greatest and stacking teams in his favour, to call himself greater for same reason.

[One_and_Done]

He also has stated some facts, many about Lebron revolving around his true lack of humility and manipulation during his career.

Yeh, because Kobe was all about humility.

He wasn't about calling himself the greatest and stacking teams in his favour, to call himself greater for same reason.

Not that any of this has any bearing to how good a player is... but Kobe forced his way to the GOAT franchise before he even entered the league, forced the Lakers to trade Shaq because he was 'sick of being God damn Robin', demanded a trade when that backfired, vetoed the trade proposed because the Bulls wouldn't be stacked enough for him to succeed, and then was fortunate enough to be gifted Pau.

If Kobe had been drafted by Cleveland he would have left as soon as possible, and if LeBron had been drafted by LA and spent his first 8 years with prime Shaq he'd have won alot more than 3 titles in those 8 years. If he'd had the same teams Kobe had from 97 to 2013 he'd have won far, far more than Kobe.

It's a meaningless criticism to say a guy who was on a hopeless franchise had to leave to experience success, just like it's not much praise to say a guy was loyal when he was lucky enough to be drafted on stacked teams for almost his whole prime... like, it's easy to be loyal in such circumstances.

[kcktiny]

but Kobe forced his way to the GOAT franchise before he even entered the league

Would you care to explain how an 18 year old kid forced his way to the Lakers? Yes he made it clear to Charlotte that he did not want to be drafted by them.

But I also seem to remember 12 teams passing on Bryant in the 1996 college draft, and then Lakers trading their starting C of 6 years Vlade Divac for an unproven - and not college - but high school player.

[Cavsfansince84]

My thing is why even have a thread about Kobe if any and all criticism of him is just people 'hating' etc? It's like is it humanly possible to criticize him without people thinking its all just irrational hate? Is it possible for people to accept that you can both appreciate the things he was good at while also being able to see where he may have been overrated by the media and his rather large fanbase? If not, then let's not even bother to discuss him.

[One_and_Done]

but Kobe forced his way to the GOAT franchise before he even entered the league

Would you care to explain how an 18 year old kid forced his way to the Lakers? Yes he made it clear to Charlotte that he did not want to be drafted by them.

But I also seem to remember 12 teams passing on Bryant in the 1996 college draft, and then Lakers trading their starting C of 6 years Vlade Divac for an unproven - and not college - but high school player.

This is very well documented. Kobe worked out for very few teams, and his agent threatened that he'd play in Europe if certain teams drafted him (e.g. the Nets). Back then, the CBA was different, and a young Kobe could bail on your team very quickly. Also HS footage and scouting was minimal, so refusing to work out with teams or to do a medical really made it tough for them to draft you. Kobe was very focussed on forcing his way to LA.

It was easy for the Lakers to see how good Kove was, because he worked out for them. Very few teams got that chance (and I am cool with ripping the few who did, though it included teams like Philly at #1 who were going to find it tough to take a HSer 1st overall in that day and age).

[Owly]

but Kobe forced his way to the GOAT franchise before he even entered the league

Would you care to explain how an 18 year old kid forced his way to the Lakers? Yes he made it clear to Charlotte that he did not want to be drafted by them.

But I also seem to remember 12 teams passing on Bryant in the 1996 college draft, and then Lakers trading their starting C of 6 years Vlade Divac for an unproven - and not college - but high school player.

In case this is genuine curiosity....

Forced is almost always going to be a touch strong. Teams can hold players to contracts. In this case without a contract but with rights a team could have tested Kobe's resolve in terms of willingness to play out a career in Italy.

And granting that sending Divac out did free up money for Shaq ...

Highlighting that Bryant slid down such that 12 teams passed him up ... and yet the Lakers gave up a second tier center to the 13th pick ... that seems like too much for that pick, no?

Almost like ... Charlotte knew he was an asset, knew he was worth more than a typical 13th pick, knew LA desired him more than a typical 13th pick, knew they could extract more for him than a typical 13th pick. Like maybe other teams got scared and didn't want the hassle? Per below at least one team was actively scared off.

Anyway you want to know how ... Showboat by Lazenby (pp225-228) has it thus
Tellem "worked miracles that spring to make Bryant a Laker"
Tellem and West's families vacationed together.
Bryant impressed West in workouts.
"In order to keep the Nets from picking him, Tellem had to convince New Jersey that Bryant so disdained the Nets that he would refuse to play for them, that he would go instead to an Italian team if he had to."
"Tellem had to convince the New Jersey team's ownership that the threat Bryant would play overseas was serious. Bryant just loved Italy, Tellem said, and would rather play there than with a relatively poor NBA team. Tellem had created just enough doubt with ownership.
By the time it was their turn to pick, the Nets reluctantly backed off on draft day ..."

How much can anyone "force" management decisions ... IDK ... Kobe and his team were seemingly able to strong-arm at least one team ... despite (IMO) limited leverage (your mileage may differ on how willing Bryant would be to play out a career in Italy), in order to get him to the desired location.

[Cavsfansince84]

This is very well documented. Kobe worked out for very few teams, and his agent threatened that he'd play in Europe if certain teams drafted him (e.g. the Nets). Back then, the CBA was different, and a young Kobe could bail on your team very quickly. Also HS footage and scouting was minimal, so refusing to work out with teams or to do a medical really made it tough for them to draft you. Kobe was very focussed on forcing his way to LA.

It was easy for the Lakers to see how good Kove was, because he worked out for them. Very few teams got that chance (and I am cool with ripping the few who did, though it included teams like Philly at #1 who were going to find it tough to take a HSer 1st overall in that day and age).

On top of that, Jerry West was extremely high on him already before the draft. So you can be somewhat certain that West had communicated to his agent that he absolutely wanted him on the Lakers and that was where Kobe wanted to go anyhow so his agent could easily play the 'Kobe only wants to go to the Lakers' card and know that it would work out for him. All of this has been known for a very long time.

[Owly]

but Kobe forced his way to the GOAT franchise before he even entered the league

Would you care to explain how an 18 year old kid forced his way to the Lakers? Yes he made it clear to Charlotte that he did not want to be drafted by them.

But I also seem to remember 12 teams passing on Bryant in the 1996 college draft, and then Lakers trading their starting C of 6 years Vlade Divac for an unproven - and not college - but high school player.

This is very well documented. Kobe worked out for very few teams, and his agent threatened that he'd play in Europe if certain teams drafted him (e.g. the Nets). Back then, the CBA was different, and a young Kobe could bail on your team very quickly. Also HS footage and scouting was minimal, so refusing to work out with teams or to do a medical really made it tough for them to draft you. Kobe was very focussed on forcing his way to LA.

It was easy for the Lakers to see how good Kove was, because he worked out for them. Very few teams got that chance (and I am cool with ripping the few who did, though it included teams like Philly at #1 who were going to find it tough to take a HSer 1st overall in that day and age).

Whlist there definitely was a concerted effort to get Kobe to LA, I'm not sure how long it was in place. Whilst he didn't do pre-draft camps (apparently on guidance from Tellem and father Joe) he worked out for the Lakers, Philly, Phoenix, New York, New Jersey and Boston (it's unclear if this list is comprehensive). That New Jersey were on there and teams like Phoenix and New York are part of the picture ... it's less clear that this was a long term "refusing to work out with teams or do a medical" type of situation. With preps-to-pros barely a thing at the time (and Garnett, a seven footer, hadn't really done it by choice, I don't think) it's possible that some teams were lazy (only watching NCAA tourney, awards etc) or risk-averse and didn't properly do their due diligence on Bryant. Once West expressed decisive interest it makes sense that then the operation to scare off others comes into play but in terms of the "how good he was" information ... he did a few workouts ... and to be honest how much real, useful you could/can glean from a very limited sample of typically non-game situation, workout stuff ... watching HS back then would have been hard back then I'll grant but still ... he wasn't completely out of nowhere.