Moderators: Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier
GSP wrote:The Clippers have a SERIOUS problem with the Mavs. This mightve been 2-0 Mavs w/o Kp ejection
Man no team looks amazing. I forgot how fun the playoffs were before there was a rigged juggernaut
MisterHibachi wrote:Can't really enjoy the Clippers loss until the Lakers win today. But I think one thing is becoming clear: that feared Clippers perimeter defense that was supposed to shut down every wing in the league doesn't really exist. And if Zubac can be played off the floor, neither does that rim protection...
LookToShoot wrote:Melo is the only player that makes the Rockets watchable for the basketball purists. Otherwise it would just be three point shots and pick n roll.
RCM88x wrote:MisterHibachi wrote:Can't really enjoy the Clippers loss until the Lakers win today. But I think one thing is becoming clear: that feared Clippers perimeter defense that was supposed to shut down every wing in the league doesn't really exist. And if Zubac can be played off the floor, neither does that rim protection...
If Beverly gets back they'll improve a lot, he's really their driving force there. They're missing his intensity.
homecourtloss wrote:Basileus777 wrote:Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
Top 5 in today's NBA?
[*]
I wouldn't agree with that, but is it that ridiculous?
Ridiculous no, but you have to really love his defense to believe that as it's tough to justify AD's offense as even belonging in a top 10.
The Lakers’ defense has fallen off of a cliff all season with AD on court and LeBron off. You can’t be a DPOY candidate with these numbers as no impact defensive big maybe ever has had Davis’s numbers with LeBron off court. I was shocked how elgee of all people handwaived away all the impact stats.
MisterHibachi wrote:RCM88x wrote:MisterHibachi wrote:Can't really enjoy the Clippers loss until the Lakers win today. But I think one thing is becoming clear: that feared Clippers perimeter defense that was supposed to shut down every wing in the league doesn't really exist. And if Zubac can be played off the floor, neither does that rim protection...
If Beverly gets back they'll improve a lot, he's really their driving force there. They're missing his intensity.
He got cooked by Luka too. He set the tone for like the first 4, 5 minutes in that 18-2 opening but was getting exploited by Luka the rest of the night.
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.
lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
Greyhound wrote:G35 wrote:Greyhound wrote:That is not similar to what I said.
I agreed with the other poster that the bubble championship will be diminished if LeBron wins it (according to the hate brigade). If he loses it however, It will be judged like any other loss would be judged.
That is a prediction offered by one individual and agreed upon by me. There is nothing about LeBron only being able to add in there.
...
That having been said, LeBron is at a point where most of what he achieves will only help add to what he has accomplished. For the most part he is fixed where he is (top five all time great/ GOAT SF). Any decline in his play at this point will only confirm that he is over the hill/ washed up.
A player does not fall from being a top five all time great because of their poor end of career play (season 15 and beyond). At that point only scandal, controversy or criminal prosecution can diminish a players standing.
I will admit that I was replying more to trex and your post was included.
Also, there is a sweet spot where players do not "fall" from their perceived position but that is temporary as new fans come around.
If players never "fell" then Bill Russell and Wilt would still be at the top.
Magic and Bird would never fall.
Julius Erving would never fall.
Michael Jordan would always stay at #1.
A players legacy is temporary at best...as we have seen in American society...history is always being re-examined and sometimes seen as wanting when a new generation applies their modern take......
The sweet spot is nonsense. The players you mentioned did not fall, others came along and supplanted them.
That could be the case with LeBron and Jordan as well. Others may come along and push them down the list. If enough of these others manifest they could find themselves outside of the top 5.
Being supplanted by another great is not the same thing as losing standing due to poor play late in your career.
Why would an old LeBron lose his standing as a top five all time great because he lost a first round series (to an eighth seed), in a pandemic disrupted seventeenth season.
That is not logical.
G35 wrote:Greyhound wrote:trex_8063 wrote:
2-3 months ago (when they were just getting plans for resuming the season worked out [and when the last view anyone had of the Lakers they were downright scary]), there were posters preemptively saying that the playoffs this year [and whoever won them] would forever have an asterisk next to them.
However, if the Lakers fall in the first round [or ANY round prior to the finals], these same people will forthwith [and forever] cite this year's playoffs as carrying the full/normal measure of relevance as any other year.
I agree.
If LeBron and the Lakers win, there will be talk of asterisk. If they fall, it will be LeBron failed again (3-7 jokes if he falls in the Finals).
That will happen.
That is similar to this thinking, "Lebron can only enhance his legacy, nothing he does can hurt his standing."
G35 wrote:Greyhound wrote:G35 wrote:
That is similar to this thinking, "Lebron can only enhance his legacy, nothing he does can hurt his standing."
Very convenient isn't it......
That is not similar to what I said.
I agreed with the other poster that the bubble championship will be diminished if LeBron wins it (according to the hate brigade). If he loses it however, It will be judged like any other loss would be judged.
That is a prediction offered by one individual and agreed upon by me. There is nothing about LeBron only being able to add in there.
...
That having been said, LeBron is at a point where most of what he achieves will only help add to what he has accomplished. For the most part he is fixed where he is (top five all time great/ GOAT SF). Any decline in his play at this point will only confirm that he is over the hill/ washed up.
A player does not fall from being a top five all time great because of their poor end of career play (season 15 and beyond). At that point only scandal, controversy or criminal prosecution can diminish a players standing.
I will admit that I was replying more to trex and your post was included.
Also, there is a sweet spot where players do not "fall" from their perceived position but that is temporary as new fans come around.
If players never "fell" then Bill Russell and Wilt would still be at the top.
Magic and Bird would never fall.
Julius Erving would never fall.
Michael Jordan would always stay at #1.
poopdamoop wrote:Old, past-prime Michael Jordan doesn't even make the playoffs - "that's not the real MJ, of course he can't be expected to carry a team anymore"
Old, past-prime LeBron James potentially gets upset in the playoffs - "embarassing, GOAT status revoked"
poopdamoop wrote:Old, past-prime Michael Jordan doesn't even make the playoffs - "that's not the real MJ, of course he can't be expected to carry a team anymore"
Old, past-prime LeBron James potentially gets upset in the playoffs - "embarassing, GOAT status revoked"
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.
lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
homecourtloss wrote:poopdamoop wrote:Old, past-prime Michael Jordan doesn't even make the playoffs - "that's not the real MJ, of course he can't be expected to carry a team anymore"
Old, past-prime LeBron James potentially gets upset in the playoffs - "embarassing, GOAT status revoked"
Not only that, but look who they’re playing. How many players did Jordan face 1990–1998 playoffs better than 2020 Lillard? Talent is out of this world in this league right now and a year 17/18 LeBron had a +10 RPM season and a number seed before going into this bubble.
They were all waiting and now they might get the chance.
trex_8063 wrote:G35 wrote:Greyhound wrote:I agree.
If LeBron and the Lakers win, there will be talk of asterisk. If they fall, it will be LeBron failed again (3-7 jokes if he falls in the Finals).
That will happen.
That is similar to this thinking, "Lebron can only enhance his legacy, nothing he does can hurt his standing."
I don't see them as similar, really.
One is at least consistent: it says that if he continues to play well, whatever happens [team-wise] doesn't hurt his standing (though losing perhaps doesn't help his standing quite as much as winning might)......this is based on a principle or philosophy of Total Career Value [or Title Probability Added, Championship Odds Cumulated, etc]. And from that point of view makes total sense.
From that principle of evaluation, every game he plays at a respectable or high level from this point on continues to add to his career value.
I was discussing this point of view with another poster regarding his '11 season, because this person was implying that season HURTS his career value. You can take that narrative-based point of view too if you like, but you can't force it on others.
My response was basically, "dude, he was probably the best player in the world during the rs; and even in the playoffs [where he "cost his team the championship"] he played at a legit All-NBA 1st/2nd team level overall, and even specifically in the finals performed better significantly above average starter-level.........I will not assign a NEGATIVE value to such a season." To me, that's ludicrous.
If, for example, Donovan Mitchell had a season that exactly mirrored what '11 Lebron did, it would be [far and away] the best season of his career, and would generate a massive leap in his ranking on any ATL. To call it a huge positive for one player, and a glaring negative for another player is shifting goal-posts, plain and simple.
And you can't claim this is some sort of "win-win" cheat for Lebron; because those of us guided by principles Total Career Value assess in this manner for EVERY player; it isn't a special "Lebron rule".
The sentiment I was citing above says if he plays well and wins, well......it doesn't count 'cause: bubble.
otoh, if he loses it magically DOES fully count, and counts AGAINST him [even if he plays phenomenally], because he's just not a winner.
No consistency, just going whichever way allows one to deny him credit. It IS a special "Lebon rule".
Greyhound wrote:G35 wrote:Greyhound wrote:That is not similar to what I said.
I agreed with the other poster that the bubble championship will be diminished if LeBron wins it (according to the hate brigade). If he loses it however, It will be judged like any other loss would be judged.
That is a prediction offered by one individual and agreed upon by me. There is nothing about LeBron only being able to add in there.
...
That having been said, LeBron is at a point where most of what he achieves will only help add to what he has accomplished. For the most part he is fixed where he is (top five all time great/ GOAT SF). Any decline in his play at this point will only confirm that he is over the hill/ washed up.
A player does not fall from being a top five all time great because of their poor end of career play (season 15 and beyond). At that point only scandal, controversy or criminal prosecution can diminish a players standing.
I will admit that I was replying more to trex and your post was included.
Also, there is a sweet spot where players do not "fall" from their perceived position but that is temporary as new fans come around.
If players never "fell" then Bill Russell and Wilt would still be at the top.
Magic and Bird would never fall.
Julius Erving would never fall.
Michael Jordan would always stay at #1.
A players legacy is temporary at best...as we have seen in American society...history is always being re-examined and sometimes seen as wanting when a new generation applies their modern take......
The sweet spot is nonsense. The players you mentioned did not fall, others came along and supplanted them.
That could be the case with LeBron and Jordan as well. Others may come along and push them down the list. If enough of these others manifest they could find themselves outside of the top 5.
Being supplanted by another great is not the same thing as losing standing due to poor play late in your career.
Why would an old LeBron lose his standing as a top five all time great because he lost a first round series (to an eighth seed), in a pandemic disrupted seventeenth season.
That is not logical.
trex_8063 wrote:G35 wrote:Greyhound wrote:That is not similar to what I said.
I agreed with the other poster that the bubble championship will be diminished if LeBron wins it (according to the hate brigade). If he loses it however, It will be judged like any other loss would be judged.
That is a prediction offered by one individual and agreed upon by me. There is nothing about LeBron only being able to add in there.
...
That having been said, LeBron is at a point where most of what he achieves will only help add to what he has accomplished. For the most part he is fixed where he is (top five all time great/ GOAT SF). Any decline in his play at this point will only confirm that he is over the hill/ washed up.
A player does not fall from being a top five all time great because of their poor end of career play (season 15 and beyond). At that point only scandal, controversy or criminal prosecution can diminish a players standing.
I will admit that I was replying more to trex and your post was included.
Also, there is a sweet spot where players do not "fall" from their perceived position but that is temporary as new fans come around.
If players never "fell" then Bill Russell and Wilt would still be at the top.
Magic and Bird would never fall.
Julius Erving would never fall.
Michael Jordan would always stay at #1.
I think you might be conflating "falling" with "being passed" [while sitting still]. They're not the same things.
In the eyes of many, Magic, Bird, Wilt, etc were passed by more recent players, but their legacies were not necessarily depressed after the fact; they were simply sitting still [because their careers are long over] when they were exceeded by others.
Or possibly you're referring to a small "drop" in the esteems of the consensus who is doing the evaluating (most likely based on a shifting demographic [to younger persons, usually]). I'll admit that may happen (although I think to only a very small degree).
But both of these are different principles than what I [and Greyhound] were referring to: where-in an active player can actually have his career value/legacy actively LOWERED [and in this specific case despite playing remarkably well, not yet "over-the-hill"].
