James Harden is a superstar

[Krodis]

I think the schedule just wore Harden and the Rockets in general down in January. They just weren't prepared for that many back-to-backs. If you take out that stretch of games, Harden is at like 27+ PPG at 62+ TS% and the Rockets are fighting for the 4 seed.

I mean, you can't just take out that stretch of games, that would be silly. But I think the team as a whole was just gassed.

[E-Balla]

This guy is just stunningly good. Top 5 player in the NBA

Close. Kobe, Melo, Lebron, KD, Paul, and Duncan (when healthy) have something to say about that.

[MisterWestside]

I think the schedule just wore Harden and the Rockets in general down in January. They just weren't prepared for that many back-to-backs. If you take out that stretch of games, Harden is at like 27+ PPG at 62+ TS% and the Rockets are fighting for the 4 seed.

I mean, you can't just take out that stretch of games, that would be silly. But I think the team as a whole was just gassed.

Hey, just saying. This thread was quiet for awhile when he was cooling off offensively.

Not that I'd knock Harden at all for this, but I'm waiting for this +/- obsessed board to put him on blast for his team's +3 pts/poss ortg when Harden's on the bench.

[Dr Positivity]

The Harden trade is so fascinating. I'd like to know which teams refused offers. Washington turning down Beal for Harden if the rumors are true, is awful. Toronto offering both Valanciunas and Ross (A C and SG, fitting OKC's positional needs perfectly) likely has a good chance of getting it done and I'd bet they didn't even offer Valanciunas alone. Charlotte maybe if they put #2 overall on the table on draft day, or offered MKG after it, would've had a shot. Harden is so good that GMs should practically be fired just not for making a better offer for him. We're talking about probably one of the big chess pieces of this generation. A guy who could be MVP of the league and the alpha dog of a title team without it seeming like an outlier. A guy like that being traded before 25 never, ever happens. Once in a lifetime opportunity.

Then there's the OKC angle. It's all or nothing for them now. If they win a title in the Durant era, this trade is justified and nobody can rip it. But if they never get one while Harden goes on to be a peer of Durant, choosing Westbrook over Harden goes down as an all time devastating deal. Like if the Bulls traded Pippen for Kemp and then the MJ era never broke through, while Pippen became an MVP candidate on his own team

[E-Balla]

I think the schedule just wore Harden and the Rockets in general down in January. They just weren't prepared for that many back-to-backs. If you take out that stretch of games, Harden is at like 27+ PPG at 62+ TS% and the Rockets are fighting for the 4 seed.

I mean, you can't just take out that stretch of games, that would be silly. But I think the team as a whole was just gassed.

Hey, just saying. This thread was quiet for awhile when he was cooling off offensively.

Not that I'd knock Harden at all for this, but I'm waiting for this +/- obsessed board to put him on blast for his team's +3 pts/poss ortg when Harden's on the bench.

TS trumps all brah.

[Krodis]

Not that I'd knock Harden at all for this, but I'm waiting for this +/- obsessed board to put him on blast for his team's +3 pts/poss ortg when Harden's on the bench.

Ehh, I like +/- stats as much as anyone, but raw on/off can be finicky, especially with a relatively small sample size. In fact, Harden's mediocre +/- numbers seem to be entirely the fault of the Douglas/Delfino/Parsons/Morris/Smith lineup having a 149 ORTg in 51 minutes of play. Doesn't seem likely that Harden's actually at fault for anything there. That's the highest minute non-Harden lineup though.

[MisterWestside]

Ehh, I like +/- stats as much as anyone, but raw on/off can be finicky, especially with a relatively small sample size.

I've seen other players get entire negative threads made about them for far less sample sizes. But every stat needs context; +/- or on/off is no different.

Harden's a top 10 player in my book.

[Chalky White]

Just mentioned this in the OKC forum, but being that Harden has Houston fighting for the 6th-7th spot in the West while essentially putting up pre 11-12 Durant like numbers(and anchoring a top 5 offense in similar fashion), I think it's safe to declare Harden a top 5 talent and OKC the definitive loser in the OKC/Houston deal. He's better than Westbrook and Ibaka, was more valuable to OKC and therefore more deserving than Perkins of $9million Kendrick is stealing, and he flat out shouldn't have been traded for Kevin Martin and a D league player, if at all. It was a horrible trade nigh rivaling that of the package Orlando received for Howard(and Harden is a better player than Howard), and it deserves far more scrutiny than it has received. I don't care that OKC is playing as good or better without him, credit that to Durant's prodigious talent, but Sam Presti's lack of foresight and either overestimation of himself, or underestimation of Harden's talent, has robbed us of watching a roster as talented and uniquely constructed as we've ever seen. One that, had they all been allowed to continuing developing together, would have rivaled the regular season successes of Jordan's Bulls.

You make that work regardless of the expense and reap the rewards afterwards, "flexibility" be damned. For OKC's sake, I hope Jeremy Lamb is special and that Toronto pick turns into Nerlens Noel, else wise they were very clearly fleeced.

Huge mark on Sam Presti's resume, especially considering they could have played him another season at no consequence and decided what to do with him at seasons end. If they still decided on trading him, and they wouldnt have if they'd known he were this good, they could have received a much better package. Someone like Drummond perhaps.

[E-Balla]

OKC isn't a loser. Both teams benefitted. OKC has gotten better by getting KD more touches and the Rockets got Harden.

[Chalky White]

OKC isn't a loser. Both teams benefitted. OKC has gotten better by getting KD more touches and the Rockets got Harden.

Anytime you trade a 23 year old superstar for a glorified spot up shooter and a D league All Star, you're a loser. I don't care that Durant is so good that such a monumental mistake doesn't appear such, it was a mistake besides.

I don't think people understand that not only did OKC not have to trade Harden this season, as he had a final year on his contract giving them the option of waiting until seasons end with no consequence, but that Sam Presti and Scott Brooks essentially chose Kendrick Perkins over James Harden. Had they amnestied the former, they could have afforded the latter comfortably. But since the Lakers were going to make a deep run in the playoffs, they required Perks size to defend Howard...

It was a mistake no matter the angle.

[G35]

OKC isn't a loser. Both teams benefitted. OKC has gotten better by getting KD more touches and the Rockets got Harden.

Anytime you trade a 23 year old superstar for a glorified spot up shooter and a D league All Star, you're a loser. I don't care that Durant is so good that such a monumental mistake doesn't appear such, it was a mistake besides.

I don't think people understand that not only did OKC not have to trade Harden this season, as he had a final year on his contract giving them the option of waiting until seasons end with no consequence, but that Sam Presti and Scott Brooks essentially chose Kendrick Perkins over James Harden. Had they amnestied the former, they could have afforded the latter comfortably. But since the Lakers were going to make a deep run in the playoffs, they required Perks size to defend Howard...

It was a mistake no matter the angle.

Kevin Martin is putting up as good numbers as Harden EVER put up. Harden took 3 years to justify his high draft selection and when the OKC needed him the most he failed. Harden had his chance to win a title LAST year. If Harden does what he is suppose to then OKC doesn't have to make that decision and they are wearing a ring right now.

Lets go over that Harden performance again in the finals so we can get the spin right:

Game 1
2-5 FG, 0-0 FT, 3 ast, 4 PF, 5 pts

Game 2
7-11 FG, 5-7 FT, 2 ast, 21 pts

Game 3
2-10 FG, 5-7 FT, 6 ast, 9 pts

Game 4
2-10 FG, 3-4 FT, 2 ast, 8 pts

Game 5
5-11 FG, 6-6 Ft, 5 ast, 19 pts


All this crap about the Thunder losing out on a championship, well what happened last year? That doesn't count? The Heat were able to neutralize Harden and kept him off the FT line. When he isn't getting double digit FTA's Harden is very ordinary. I was pulling for OKC last year and watching Harden choke in the finals showed me that he is replaceable in the Thunder lineup. The irreplaceable piece is Durant. I have yet to see Houston beat OKC this year; in fact losing two games by a total of FIFTY-TWO points. And Harden has had some absolute stinkers against them. So why is OKC losing any sleep over Harden? It's not like they are going to be beating them any time soon. Houston is not OKC's competition. That's either SA or MIA.

It's funny that last year after 50 games OKC was 38-12. Guess what their record is this year after 50 games? 38-12, I don't think the Thunder are missing Harden.

And guess what Houston's record looks a lot like it did last year. They were great at home and horrible on the road. Houston is a team that feasts on teams at home and struggles on the road, same as last year. When Harden stops getting burned out by playing more than 30 minutes a game or playing back to back then we can talk.....

[GSP]

lol at Harden being top 30 alltime sweet Jesus. Im not even convinced Kd is a lock for that let alone Harden. I dont see how hes better than prime Ginobli either just by watching their games. He has a bigger role and minutes than Manu but ITO their ability and production how can u say hes better?

Hes easily top 10 this year tho.

[Krodis]

If Manu Ginobili had a bigger role and more minutes though, he'd probably be like Top 30 all-time >.>

But still, premature to start talking all-time wrt to Harden.

[90sAllDecade]

OKC did very well in the trade, Houston did great. I think Presti choose Ibaka over Harden and looking at the makeup of that team and the value he got in return, I'd say it wasn't a too bad decision. Although I'm not sure how much the lower revenue of a small market and how they could've flipped Perkins would've affected things.

Martin is fitting well, Lamb's career and the draft pick will ultimately determine if this was a big mistake, a wash or even if OKC edges it out. As of today Houston did get the better though imo.

[CKRT]

Kevin Martin is putting up as good numbers as Harden EVER put up. Harden took 3 years to justify his high draft selection and when the OKC needed him the most he failed. Harden had his chance to win a title LAST year. If Harden does what he is suppose to then OKC doesn't have to make that decision and they are wearing a ring right now.

Harden taking three years to start producing had little to do with him, and way more to do with Brooks playing inferior players for 38 a game. I think you're being a little disingenious about expecting him to produce just because he's a high draft pick, players take time to develop at the NBA level as well.

Lets go over that Harden performance again in the finals so we can get the spin right:

Game 1
2-5 FG, 0-0 FT, 3 ast, 4 PF, 5 pts

Game 2
7-11 FG, 5-7 FT, 2 ast, 21 pts

Game 3
2-10 FG, 5-7 FT, 6 ast, 9 pts

Game 4
2-10 FG, 3-4 FT, 2 ast, 8 pts

Game 5
5-11 FG, 6-6 Ft, 5 ast, 19 pts


All this crap about the Thunder losing out on a championship, well what happened last year? That doesn't count? The Heat were able to neutralize Harden and kept him off the FT line. When he isn't getting double digit FTA's Harden is very ordinary. I was pulling for OKC last year and watching Harden choke in the finals showed me that he is replaceable in the Thunder lineup.

You're right, the Heat did an awesome job last year containing Harden. But, I think you're wrong when you said that Harden is ordinary when he isnt getting to the line, because it's not like Harden was driving the lane and just not getting calls, the guy was seeing consistent doubles every time he touched the ball with a third defender shading him. That's going to throw most every guy off when he starts seeing defensive attention like that for the first time (as far as I can remember that was first time I remember a team defending Harden like that).

Just to play devil's advocate here, did you also see that LeBron was replaceable after the 2007 Finals? or the 2011 Finals? What about Kobe in the 2000/04 Finals? Dirk in the 2006 Finals? against GSW?

I have yet to see Houston beat OKC this year; in fact losing two games by a total of FIFTY-TWO points. And Harden has had some absolute stinkers against them. So why is OKC losing any sleep over Harden? It's not like they are going to be beating them any time soon. Houston is not OKC's competition. That's either SA or MIA.

It's funny that last year after 50 games OKC was 38-12. Guess what their record is this year after 50 games? 38-12, I don't think the Thunder are missing Harden.

And guess what Houston's record looks a lot like it did last year. They were great at home and horrible on the road. Houston is a team that feasts on teams at home and struggles on the road, same as last year. When Harden stops getting burned out by playing more than 30 minutes a game or playing back to back then we can talk.....

This is when you're bias is really showing. I'm fine with criticizing Harden for legitimate reasons, but stop trying to bring him down for playing on a worse team than OKC..Houston just blew up their team, and started rebuilding while OKC has been in the playoffs since 2010. Entirely different situations. Just for comparison OKC's 3rd/4th options are putting up 15.3 and 13.7 a game respectively. Houston's second option is putting up 14.5, and then their 3rd highest scorer is Lin who is putting up 13.8 on god awful percentages.

The Thunder are missing Harden. The whole point of saying that the Thunder messed up is because they're looking at the potential of the situation. Westbrook/Harden/Durant were WRECKING teams when they were on the floor together (120+ ORTG iirc), and the craziness of it is that they're wrecking teams still with Martin replacing Harden because Durant and Westbrook continued to improve. That's everyone's point. OKC could have been an even more incredible team if they kept all 3 of them together.

Again, you keep bringing up team record, but does what Houston did last season even matter? I think Parsons and Patterson are the only two players left from that roster. You're trying to make connections that aren't there.

Harden isn't getting burned out from playing over 30 minutes or just a couple back to backs, he was getting burned out playing over 40 minutes a game on constant back to backs. He's going to take time to adjust to his role as a first option, and that includes the increased minutes.

[te887848]

The comparison isn't Houston vs OKC - it's Harden vs Martin, Lamb, and the picks (and OKC vs Miami). No matter how you look at it, Harden destroys everything OKC got back in return for him. It isn't even close. I believe OKC knew they were getting shanked in the Harden deal, but I don't think anyone imagined Harden would blossom into the kind of monster he is today.

[ardee]

lol at Harden being top 30 alltime sweet Jesus. Im not even convinced Kd is a lock for that let alone Harden. I dont see how hes better than prime Ginobli either just by watching their games. He has a bigger role and minutes than Manu but ITO their ability and production how can u say hes better?

Hes easily top 10 this year tho.

He's playing at an offensive level almost as good as Wade's prime, and this is his first year as the alpha dog and he's not even 23. I think he has a very good shot at being one of the best SGs ever.

And if you don't think KD is a lock for top 30, well...

[The Infamous1]

Okc is dominating just fine without harden. What's funny is you had people that said harden was the engine that made their offense go but they've been better this season without him

[GSP]

lol at Harden being top 30 alltime sweet Jesus. Im not even convinced Kd is a lock for that let alone Harden. I dont see how hes better than prime Ginobli either just by watching their games. He has a bigger role and minutes than Manu but ITO their ability and production how can u say hes better?

Hes easily top 10 this year tho.

He's playing at an offensive level almost as good as Wade's prime, and this is his first year as the alpha dog and he's not even 23. I think he has a very good shot at being one of the best SGs ever.

And if you don't think KD is a lock for top 30, well...

I disagree. I think ppl are falling too much in love with the pace inflated stats of that Rockets team giving him such high box score #s. Wade was making the Heats offense in his prime better than 8 points when he was oncourt. Harden is around 5. That is a big difference. I think he can be one of the best Sgs ever maybe better than Reggie if he can step up big in the playoffs but his offensive game right now is too limited and his defense always been below average as well.
Asik is making that Rockets team look much better defensively than it is along with their high pace. He can gamble a lot more on this team because of that court coverage of Asik. In Okc he was the same good positional defense due to his body and angles but gambled fairly often but Serge and Perkins couldnt mask his deficits on that end. That why his RAPM and plusminus values were so high because he was perfect fit with Nick Collison and their two man game especially off the bench.

[LarsV8]

I disagree. I think ppl are falling too much in love with the pace inflated stats of that Rockets team giving him such high box score #s. Wade was making the Heats offense in his prime better than 8 points when he was oncourt. Harden is around 5. That is a big difference.

Thats only an apples to apples comparison if you are using the same supporting cast for each player. Our bench is pretty potent offensively.