The Lebron Thread (Pt. 2)

[GSP]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... bron-james

LeBron James and Paul George
when guarding each other
Eastern Conference finals
James George*
Points 45 29
FG 18-31 10-13
Turnovers 8 1
Points per play 1.07 1.71
* George: 6-for-7, 16 points, zero TO in Game 2

Thoughts on this?

[An Unbiased Fan]

Lebron's issue is the same as it was back in his Cleveland days, he tends to become too ball-dominant in big series. Against a good defensive team, this is a huge problem because it under-utilizes his teammates. You simply don't want 1 guy scoring your points, grabbing the boards, and making all the assists, because it fragments the other players and turns them into props.

3 years, in and Lebron/Bosh still don't have a solid 2 man game. There's no reason for there not to be a Kobe/Pau, or even Deron/Boozer type chemistry, especially considering Lebron's playmaking, and Bosh's skillset. I have asked this before, but what bigman has really thrived next to Lebron, and can Lebron have the type of PS success people expect if his bigs are constantly under-utilized?

You got it backwards, as usual. If there's any problem is that he dominates the ball LESS than optimal for the best, most versatile player in the league. In cases like last night, he simply needs to channel his inner Michael Jordan and go berserk. He was hot at the end of the 3rd and beginning of the 4th and then had a 6 minute stretch where he was again just swinging the ball around or watching Wade's pitiful attempts at creating something... Besides, his usage rate in these playoffs is 29%, hardly 'ball-dominant'. Compare that with Melo's 38% this year or your boy Bean who frequently had around 33% after he established himself as the alpha boy on his team. Those guys all dominate the ball FAR more than LeBron, yet you don't seem to have any problem with that...

Nobody has dominated the ball more than Lebron in the modern era, except maybe Prime Nash. This isn't about USG%, it's about how all of Lebron's teams are focused around utilizing HIM, and not the other 4 guys on the court. This leads to huge box scores, but like I always ask, what's the overall impact? Lebron controls the ball way too much, and turns his cast into props. This limits the impact of his teammates, which is why we always hear "he doesn't have enough help"...even when paired with Wade/Bosh.

Otherwise, I agree. One player offenses are predictable and not good at all, it's just that Miami isn't that and you comparing them to the Cavs is laughable. Miami has a less-LeBron-dependent offense than Cleveland did. That's why they are a better team, but alas, there will be quite a few games (especially against tough defenses like Indiana) where Wade & Bosh will be completely neutralized and the other role players will miss their shots. It happened in the last two games more or less. In those cases, LeBron needs to take over the game (mostly with his scoring), otherwise Miami will simply lose the game, they're lucky they haven't lost both games with home court. Go ahead, watch the last two games again and tell me that LeBron isn't involved in at least 80% of good things that Miami do. I dare you. Even the shots that Miami misses, LeBron is the guy who created that missed wide opener 75% of the time.

I don't think you quite get it. The fact that Lebron is involved in so much of Miami's offense.....is what is causing the under-utilization of his supporting cast. Guys become one-dimensional next to him, and his teams live and die with his performances.

My question has always been whether stars can maintain effectiveness playing next to Lebron. He's an unselfish player, sure. But his play seems to demand others to strip parts of their game out for the most part. Wade had to sacrifice some of his game to allow Lebron to be Lebron. Bosh has regressed quite a bit from his Toronto days, for Lebron to be Lebron.

Thrive? Birdman isn't 'thriving' in your opinion? Dude went from a jobless Big man that nobody wanted to having a PER of 32.2 shooting 85%FG from the floor in the playoffs... Watch the tape, everything is because of LeBron James' drives.

Dude really? Birdman is a garbage man. Yes, he's 31-37 on an average of 3.4 FGA, strong sample size.

If Birdman's 11 game playoff run in 14 mpg is your best example, then......

As far as the James/Bosh connection goes (or lack thereof). I always felt a PnR game with those two would be absolutely deadly, since James is one of the best penetrators and passers in the league and Bosh is a great roll and pop option but Spo would obviously rather rely on 'space&wait' offense which, ironically, is similar to what the Cavs used to run. It's funny because in the 3 years the Big Three have been together, I've seen like a gazillion plays ran by Spoelstra but 80% of those plays just vanish at one point. I guess they can't run more than a couple of plays over a certain interval. I.e. LeBron has feasted in the post last year in the playoffs, this year, he rarely plays with his back to the basket down low. They mix a lot of things with Wade, James, Bosh but the only thing that always seems to be the same is the shooters will get shots, it's just a matter of hitting them.

It begs the question of Lebron playing next to a quality bigman, that's for sure. I don't think Lebron likes the 2man game, and would rather take the big out of the paint to have more room to get to the rim.

It's just kinda crazy to see Hibbert and West having their way with the Heat, and Bosh just standing out there waiting to shoot a 12-15 jumper. Bosh was a 24/11 player before he went to Miami. He was the kind of guy defenses had to account for, which isn't the case now in Miami where he's just a spot up big.

[PCProductions]

I think this was the best performance I've seen out of him in a Miami uniform outside of game 6 vs. Boston up until the two TOs

You have on some really rose-colored glasses, there. He was basically invisible and passive the majority of the 4th quarter. In the final 8:00, in a close game, he had one basket. If the best you've seen from the best player in the league is a disappearing act over the final 8:00 of an important, close playoff game, then he's not that good. I noticed his passivity the majority of the 4th quarter. It was glaring. Maybe he lost his balls at the end of the 3rd when Paul George drove right around him and dunked on the entire city of Miami.

Sorry, but the love fest in here is a bit much. Great players shouldn't get passes for disappearing acts.

This guy.

[Jordan23Forever]

I think this was the best performance I've seen out of him in a Miami uniform outside of game 6 vs. Boston up until the two TOs

You have on some really rose-colored glasses, there. He was basically invisible and passive the majority of the 4th quarter. In the final 8:00, in a close game, he had one basket. If the best you've seen from the best player in the league is a disappearing act over the final 8:00 of an important, close playoff game, then he's not that good. I noticed his passivity the majority of the 4th quarter. It was glaring. Maybe he lost his balls at the end of the 3rd when Paul George drove right around him and dunked on the entire city of Miami.

Sorry, but the love fest in here is a bit much. Great players shouldn't get passes for disappearing acts.

This guy.

Nice response. The facts remain: one basket over the final 8:00 of a close playoff game, the majority of that time just being passive swinging the ball, and two crucial TO's late in the game. Deal with the facts.

[GSP]

This was by far his best game of this playoffs so far. Even with the 2 turnovers it happens but the 2nd couldve easily been avoided. Was shocked but lets not act like he was the first star to have something like that happen. Even michael jordan had 2 turnovers in the clutch against orlando.

[TheChosen618]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58642/george-hibbert-get-the-better-of-lebron-james

LeBron James and Paul George
when guarding each other
Eastern Conference finals
James George*
Points 45 29
FG 18-31 10-13
Turnovers 8 1
Points per play 1.07 1.71
* George: 6-for-7, 16 points, zero TO in Game 2

Thoughts on this?

I think they should stick him with the bigs and PFs more often like Hansbrough and West. He is doing a much better job on those two than Battier is.

Lebron's defense has regressed this season as I have been saying all season primarily his man defense. He has still been terrific helping defensively and making key defensive plays like that block on Hibbert last night.

It's a tough situation for the Heat and Lebron right now. Do you stick him with bigs so the Pacers can't dominate the boards as much with the price of Lebron being fatigue and not being able to take over as much offensively? It's hard to say because the Heat are nothing offensively without Lebron either and are practically useless without him.

Lebron has to dominate on both ends now, something Jordan never even had to carry.

[colts18]

I noticed his passivity the majority of the 4th quarter. It was glaring. Maybe he lost his balls at the end of the 3rd when Paul George drove right around him and dunked on the entire city of Miami.

You mean the 4th quarter where LeBron went 4-5, 10 points, 4 rebounds, 1 big block, and a jumpball win? Do you mean the same 4th quarter where LeBron's supporting cast went 3-13 FG (1-6 3P)? Do you mean the 4th quarter where LeBron's teammates went 0-6 FG in the last 5:40 minutes of the game

[_Game7_]

You have on some really rose-colored glasses, there. He was basically invisible and passive the majority of the 4th quarter. In the final 8:00, in a close game, he had one basket. If the best you've seen from the best player in the league is a disappearing act over the final 8:00 of an important, close playoff game, then he's not that good. I noticed his passivity the majority of the 4th quarter. It was glaring. Maybe he lost his balls at the end of the 3rd when Paul George drove right around him and dunked on the entire city of Miami.

Sorry, but the love fest in here is a bit much. Great players shouldn't get passes for disappearing acts.

This guy.

Nice response. The facts remain: one basket over the final 8:00 of a close playoff game, the majority of that time just being passive swinging the ball, and two crucial TO's late in the game. Deal with the facts.

This is how I felt as well, as a Lebron fan.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Lebron has to dominate on both ends now, something Jordan never even had to carry.

Dude, the difference between Lebron and MJ, is that MJ knew how to utilize guys like Pippen, so he didn't have to dominate everything. Lebron has a 20/10 caliber big on his roster.... perhaps he needs to actually use him.

[PCProductions]

Nice response. The facts remain: one basket over the final 8:00 of a close playoff game, the majority of that time just being passive swinging the ball, and two crucial TO's late in the game. Deal with the facts.

Lebron's 4th quarter wasn't spectacular, but the rest of his game was. You can blame the game on him if you want, but either way Miami just got outplayed defensively. The point is that you only ever come into this thread to rip on Lebron, and it's getting kinda old. After this game, I anticipated some of these Lebron criticisms, and you guys didn't fail to deliver.

[Ziggy Stardust]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58642/george-hibbert-get-the-better-of-lebron-james

LeBron James and Paul George
when guarding each other
Eastern Conference finals
James George*
Points 45 29
FG 18-31 10-13
Turnovers 8 1
Points per play 1.07 1.71
* George: 6-for-7, 16 points, zero TO in Game 2

Thoughts on this?

I think they should stick him with the bigs and PFs more often like Hansbrough and West. He is doing a much better job on those two than Battier is.

Lebron's defense has regressed this season as I have been saying all season primarily his man defense. He has still been terrific helping defensively and making key defensive plays like that block on Hibbert last night.

It's a tough situation for the Heat and Lebron right now. Do you stick him with bigs so the Pacers can't dominate the boards as much with the price of Lebron being fatigue and not being able to take over as much offensively? It's hard to say because the Heat are nothing offensively without Lebron either and are practically useless without him.

Lebron has to dominate on both ends now, something Jordan never even had to carry.

[NO-KG-AI]

Lebron has to dominate on both ends now, something Jordan never even had to carry.

Dude, the difference between Lebron and MJ, is that MJ knew how to utilize guys like Pippen, so he didn't have to dominate everything. Lebron has a 20/10 caliber big on his roster.... perhaps he needs to actually use him.

I always thought Bosh should be used more, but Bosh really has become super passive since then. He won't drive like he used to, even when he has the ball, and he's doing nothing on the glass, and that's not something that's on LeBron. Bosh should be attacking the glass.

[Mutnt]

Nobody has dominated the ball more than Lebron in the modern era, except maybe Prime Nash. This isn't about USG%, it's about how all of Lebron's teams are focused around utilizing HIM, and not the other 4 guys on the court. This leads to huge box scores, but like I always ask, what's the overall impact? Lebron controls the ball way too much, and turns his cast into props. This limits the impact of his teammates, which is why we always hear "he doesn't have enough help"...even when paired with Wade/Bosh.

Again, pulling illogical stuff out of your ass like always UBF. USG% = how much the ball is in your hands = how ball dominant you are on your team. You can try to twist the definition as much as you wish, it ain't gonna help you. How LeBron is utilized by Spo and how the other players are positioned around him has absolutely no direct connection with ball dominance. LeBron fills the stat sheet because he's good at every faucet of the game, doesn't matter how he's played or who his teammates are. He's earned his offensive freedom, the ball and the decision making much like every other great player in basketball history. You trying to make it look like LeBron having the ball in his hands a lot (which isn't true, like I've already proven) is a bad thing is bogus.

Wade & Bosh always played great with LeBron. Obviously Wade is injured now, you seem to willfully ignore that as being important. Other than that, the key word you're looking for is 'sacrifice'. When you pair 3 great players together there's gonna be a drop in production... there's only one ball, it's just a matter of who will sacrifice the most (in Miami's case, Bosh & Wade are inferior to LeBron, so LeBron get's to be the alpha dog).
You had the same thing with the Lakers this year. It's only one ball and Howard, Nash, Bryant and Gasol can not all keep their raw production on the same level (Kobe's stronghold on the Lakers made him the alpha dog, so he sacrificed nothing while other players were getting minimal touches in their comfort zones). There's too little touches and opportunities.

I don't think you quite get it. The fact that Lebron is involved in so much of Miami's offense.....is what is causing the under-utilization of his supporting cast. Guys become one-dimensional next to him, and his teams live and die with his performances.

My question has always been whether stars can maintain effectiveness playing next to Lebron. He's an unselfish player, sure. But his play seems to demand others to strip parts of their game out for the most part. Wade had to sacrifice some of his game to allow Lebron to be Lebron. Bosh has regressed quite a bit from his Toronto days, for Lebron to be Lebron.

No, you don't get it. LeBron is less involved in the offense than in their championship year. In fact, for being clearly the best player in the league, he's UNDER-UTILIZED. Who do you think should be utilized more? Cole? Chalmers? Allen? Battier? A one-legged Wade? They are all horrible, but yet, still get a lot of playing time and butcher everything LeBron does well. You can maybe make a case for Bosh, but not at LeBron's expense, that's for sure.

The guys around him ARE one-dimensional... It doesn't get more one-dimensional than Allen, Battier, Chalmers, Cole, Haslem, Joel Anthony, Mike Miller etc. Bosh can drive a bit, but against Hibbert he has no chance other than to spam jumpers or wait for a good entry pass (by LeBron of course). Wade is also pretty one-dimensional in his current state. He can't shoot and can't drive effectively with that bum knee, which was pretty evident when he butchered countless scoring opportunities last game (or quite frankly, the whole playoffs)...

LeBron is by far the best player at maximizing weak, one-dimensional supporting casts in this league. That much should've already been clear-cut with his stint in Cleveland. That team doesn't sniff the same amount of success with any other star in LeBron's place. Of course, Wade and Bosh (I've talked about that earlier) don't have the same freedom as when they were 1st options for their teams, because LeBron is simply a better option with the ball in his hands. He has proven this in Cleveland and in Miami. Wade has proven he can be effective playing alongside James, just not in the condition his in right now. Bosh doesn't drive, Spo assigned a different role for him, not LeBron's fault. There were a lot of instances where Bosh got 1on1 iso's in 2011 and LeBron had no problem giving him the ball. The results are what they are.

If Birdman's 11 game playoff run in 14 mpg is your best example, then......

The fact that he was able to transform an outlawed player into the 2nd best player on his team is enough of a example for me. Also, Ilgauskas, Bosh all were more effective playing with LeBron.
o be the same is the shooters will get shots, it's just a matter of hitting them.[/quote]

It begs the question of Lebron playing next to a quality bigman, that's for sure. I don't think Lebron likes the 2man game, and would rather take the big out of the paint to have more room to get to the rim.

It's just kinda crazy to see Hibbert and West having their way with the Heat, and Bosh just standing out there waiting to shoot a 12-15 jumper. Bosh was a 24/11 player before he went to Miami. He was the kind of guy defenses had to account for, which isn't the case now in Miami where he's just a spot up big.

Nope, again Birdman is playing well, not LeBron's fault he only plays 15 minutes per game. LeBron does what he is asked to do mostly. If Spo wants to spam Bosh/James PnR's he'll do it, if he doesn't want them running that play, he won't do it.

That's because Bosh is too soft and small to challange Hibbert and Battier has no prayer against one of the strongest, most physical players in the league in West. Again, not LeBron's fault. Bosh can't average those raw numbers anymore, he's in a different team context, please comprehend that. If they give the ball more to Bosh, than LeBron's gonna be even more passive and will suffer while Bosh won't be as effective in the 1st option mode, cause he's not as good of a player.

In conclusion, you have a very flawed way of analyzing things and assign fault to LeBron in areas that make no sense. Wade stinks and has a bum knee, IT'S LEBRON'S FAULT, Bosh is just taking jumpers, IT'S LEBRON'S FAULT, everyone is missing wide open threes, IT'S LEBRON'S FAULT, Hibbert and West are feasting on Miami's interior, IT'S LEBRON'S FAULT!

If LeBron doesn't play for Miami, or has a less prominent role within the team, Miami would've had 0 rings by now in the Big Three era and would never reached an NBA Finals, simple as that.

[CBA]

Lebron has to dominate on both ends now, something Jordan never even had to carry.

Dude, the difference between Lebron and MJ, is that MJ knew how to utilize guys like Pippen, so he didn't have to dominate everything. Lebron has a 20/10 caliber big on his roster.... perhaps he needs to actually use him.

You're killing me.

[GSP]

Lebron has to dominate on both ends now, something Jordan never even had to carry.

Dude, the difference between Lebron and MJ, is that MJ knew how to utilize guys like Pippen, so he didn't have to dominate everything. Lebron has a 20/10 caliber big on his roster.... perhaps he needs to actually use him.

The difference is Kobe and Mj had a system by Phil for all of their success. Gasol is like the perfect player for the triangle its ridiculous youre trying to give Kobe all of the credit for that. Spo has made improvements on offense but he doesnt have a sound and consistent system. Browns offensive coaching was literally give the ball to Lebron...............

[An Unbiased Fan]

Lebron has to dominate on both ends now, something Jordan never even had to carry.

Dude, the difference between Lebron and MJ, is that MJ knew how to utilize guys like Pippen, so he didn't have to dominate everything. Lebron has a 20/10 caliber big on his roster.... perhaps he needs to actually use him.

I always thought Bosh should be used more, but Bosh really has become super passive since then. He won't drive like he used to, even when he has the ball, and he's doing nothing on the glass, and that's not something that's on LeBron. Bosh should be attacking the glass.

I think the problem is similar to what happened to Pau with Brown & MDA. When you take a big so far from the basket, they become one-dimensional, passive, and settle for jumpers. Lebron's style of play is why Bosh has moved to the mid-range area, it's all about clearing space for Bron to operate inside. So Bosh is passive due in large part because he's focussed on getting Lebron/Wade looks, and further from the basket which has reduced his rebounding rate.

Just think of Bosh back in his Toronto days. That's they way he should be used, and Lebron has to start accommodating his game around his cast, and not just the other way around. I don't understand how a guy with his passing ability, doesn't have a great 2-man game with Bosh, who is very skilled.

[Jordan23Forever]

Nice response. The facts remain: one basket over the final 8:00 of a close playoff game, the majority of that time just being passive swinging the ball, and two crucial TO's late in the game. Deal with the facts.

Lebron's 4th quarter wasn't spectacular, but the rest of his game was. You can blame the game on him if you want, but either way Miami just got outplayed defensively. The point is that you only ever come into this thread to rip on Lebron, and it's getting kinda old. After this game, I anticipated some of these Lebron criticisms, and you guys didn't fail to deliver.

I'm not blaming the entire loss on him at all. I responded to a very specific statement made by someone else, who said that, aside from the two TO's late, this was the best he had seen Lebron play in Miami. My point was that if doing basically nothing in the final 8:00 of a hotly contested playoff game if the best you've seen, and you're trying to spin this as some sort of great game, you're looking through rose-tinted glasses.

You "anticipated" Lebron criticisms? What, so we can only have people shower him with praise in this thread?

[Jordan23Forever]

You mean the 4th quarter where LeBron went 4-5, 10 points, 4 rebounds, 1 big block, and a jumpball win? Do you mean the same 4th quarter where LeBron's supporting cast went 3-13 FG (1-6 3P)? Do you mean the 4th quarter where LeBron's teammates went 0-6 FG in the last 5:40 minutes of the game

Final 8:00 of the 4th in a close game: 1 basket and 2 late costly TO's. Deal with the facts. lol @ "10 points" when 7-8 of them came in the first few minutes of the 4th. Then he disappeared the final 8:00. Try again.

Your points about the supporting cast's inefficacy has nothing to do with what I said, or what I was responding to. I never blamed the loss on Lebron, though his passivity for the majority of the 4th quarter definitely contributed. I responded to a very specific comment that was made.

[colts18]

Just think of Bosh back in his Toronto days. That's they way he should be used, and Lebron has to start accommodating his game around his cast, and not just the other way around. I don't understand how a guy with his passing ability, doesn't have a great 2-man game with Bosh, who is very skilled.

You keep mentioning LeBron's ball dominance, but why should LeBron change his game for Bosh? LeBron's on court offensive rating is the highest non-Phoenix Suns O rating since 1997. The team has a 116.5 O rating and .596 TS% with LeBron on the court. In the playoffs the Heat have a 114 O rating which is the best in the playoffs among players with 250+ MP. Why should he stop being ball dominant when ball dominant has proven to work? You haven't shown any evidence that LeBron handling the ball less will be a good thing.

[ThatsWhatIShved]

Nobody has dominated the ball more than Lebron in the modern era, except maybe Prime Nash. This isn't about USG%, it's about how all of Lebron's teams are focused around utilizing HIM, and not the other 4 guys on the court. This leads to huge box scores, but like I always ask, what's the overall impact? Lebron controls the ball way too much, and turns his cast into props. This limits the impact of his teammates, which is why we always hear "he doesn't have enough help"...even when paired with Wade/Bosh.

Again, pulling illogical stuff out of your ass like always UBF. USG% = how much the ball is in your hands = how ball dominant you are on your team. You can try to twist the definition as much as you wish, it ain't gonna help you.
[quote]

This is 100% wrong. USG% does not measure ball dominance at all. It measures how often you end your team's possesion, two totally seperate things.