PC Board OT Thread Take 4 [No Politics]

[70sFan]

"Big Slow" made me laugh.

But I do kinda agree with the general point that players get overrated a tad when they're outliers for their position/size.

What other examples do you have? That's interesting topic actually, ignoring another LAL rant against Duncan (which is hillarious at this point).

I probably need to expand a bit first. I don't generally think those types of players get overrated overall, but just in individual skill areas. People don't like adding the qualifier of 'for a big/small' every time when discussing a player (understandably), but then the line on what traditional skills fall to different sized people gets kind of blurred.

Kidd's rebounding and Dirk's shooting come to mind. Dirk is a strong shooter, don't get me wrong, but more into the very very good, fringe ATG category than GOAT level. Removing positional modifiers and Kidd is probably in the above average class of rebounder and not at all historically noteworthy.

Noting that being clearly better than your positional counterparts in certain skills is a great way to create impact, as long as you keep up in other areas.

Definitely agree with Kidd's rebounding (basically all high rebounding guards are similar), but I'm not sure I'd agree about Dirk's shooting. The efficiency is there, the volume is there, his ability to create open looks is there and he's one of the best tough jumpers maker ever.

[falcolombardi]

I think Webber is overrated more because of his flash, not because of the position he played. Another one is Arvydas Sabonis.

That said, I'd like to hear more non-passing examples.

shooting in bigs is overated, specially before modern era

people talked a lot about arvydas 3 point shooting too, but his percentages would never allow him to take 3's today, brook López "snipership" is overstated because he is a center too although his percentages are a level above arvydas

handles in big interestingly enough may be the opposite, some big players with insane handles like magic, lebron or giannis dont have thay much credit for them (although some like durant do despite his handles being probably worse than all of the above)

I think you went a bit too far with bolded, plenty of worse shooters than him took threes today.

I'd actually say that handles for bigs is a good example. Durant has been overrated in this case for a lot of time. The same applies to almost all bigs that have "great" flashy handles. Giannis is probably the only good ball-hanlding bigman whose handles are not overrated. His ability to protect the ball and to manipulate it through small spaces is really impressive, even though his handles still are the product of our era.

i used hyperbole so let me rephrase it

he could never be a volume 3 pt shooter with his percentages, in years where he took more than a 3 per game he averaged 33.5% in roughly 1.6 attempts a game

a perimeter player who shot like that would never be called a solid, let alone good shooter

he was not a good long distance shooter, he could hit 3's but not at a clip where a stretch big would stretch defenses (jokic, towns, even vucevic)

[70sFan]

shooting in bigs is overated, specially before modern era

people talked a lot about arvydas 3 point shooting too, but his percentages would never allow him to take 3's today, brook López "snipership" is overstated because he is a center too although his percentages are a level above arvydas

handles in big interestingly enough may be the opposite, some big players with insane handles like magic, lebron or giannis dont have thay much credit for them (although some like durant do despite his handles being probably worse than all of the above)

I think you went a bit too far with bolded, plenty of worse shooters than him took threes today.

I'd actually say that handles for bigs is a good example. Durant has been overrated in this case for a lot of time. The same applies to almost all bigs that have "great" flashy handles. Giannis is probably the only good ball-hanlding bigman whose handles are not overrated. His ability to protect the ball and to manipulate it through small spaces is really impressive, even though his handles still are the product of our era.

i used hyperbole so let me rephrase it

he could never be a volume 3 pt shooter with his percentages, in years where he took more than a 3 per game he averaged 33.5% in roughly 1.6 attempts a game

a perimeter player who shot like that would never be called a solid, let alone good shooter

he was not a good long distance shooter, he could hit 3's but not at a clip where a stretch big would stretch defenses (jokic, towns, even vucevic)

Yeah, in absolute sense he wasn't a good shooter. For a center he was above average, but not amazing either. Even his FT% indicates that - he definitely had a nice shooting touch, but he wasn't that good from deep.

[70sFan]

Watch on YouTube

Let's just say it wouldn't be called this way today...

Special recognition to fantastic series on NBA.com called 75 Archive. They share a lot of amazing, rare videos from the history of the NBA. Link:

https://www.nba.com/news/category/archive-75

[falcolombardi]

Watch on YouTube

Let's just say it wouldn't be called this way today...

Special recognition to fantastic series on NBA.com called 75 Archive. They share a lot of amazing, rare videos from the history of the NBA. Link:

https://www.nba.com/news/category/archive-75

not even giving a mention to the difference in how contact in the post was reffed is why (among other thinghs) i believe ben Taylor didnt give wilt a fair shake

he constantly criticized him for not being more physical in offense while never mentioning the rules difference when comparing him to the likes of shaq

and criticized him so much for not mpving in offense while not even mentioning the amount of minutes, in fact only mentioned minutes to diminsh

wilt obviously was not perfect, but sometimes i think people are not truly fair with him

[70sFan]

Watch on YouTube

Let's just say it wouldn't be called this way today...

Special recognition to fantastic series on NBA.com called 75 Archive. They share a lot of amazing, rare videos from the history of the NBA. Link:

https://www.nba.com/news/category/archive-75

not even giving a mention to the difference in how contact in the post was reffed is why (among other thinghs) i believe ben Taylor didnt give wilt a fair shake

he constantly criticized him for not being more physical in offense while never mentioning the rules difference when comparing him to the likes of shaq

and criticized him so much for not mpving in offense while not even mentioning the amount of minutes, in fact only mentioned minutes to diminsh

wilt obviously was not perfect, but sometimes i think people are not truly fair with him

I agree, some of this criticism is legit but after some years it reached ridiculous level. Wilt wasn't perfect as you said, but he was limited by rules in a way Shaq wasn't. He also put a lot more effort in defense than O'Neal.

As an observation, the more I watch 1960s Sixers footage, the more I see that his cooperation with Hal Greer was top notch. They were deadly running two-men action, either with Wilt playing in the post and hitting Hal in short midrange, them playing various kinds of hand-offs or Hal playing high P&Rs with Wilt (ot course high relative to era, they didn't start them 5 feet out of three point line).

[falcolombardi]

Watch on YouTube

Let's just say it wouldn't be called this way today...

Special recognition to fantastic series on NBA.com called 75 Archive. They share a lot of amazing, rare videos from the history of the NBA. Link:

https://www.nba.com/news/category/archive-75

not even giving a mention to the difference in how contact in the post was reffed is why (among other thinghs) i believe ben Taylor didnt give wilt a fair shake

he constantly criticized him for not being more physical in offense while never mentioning the rules difference when comparing him to the likes of shaq

and criticized him so much for not mpving in offense while not even mentioning the amount of minutes, in fact only mentioned minutes to diminsh

wilt obviously was not perfect, but sometimes i think people are not truly fair with him

I agree, some of this criticism is legit but after some years it reached ridiculous level. Wilt wasn't perfect as you said, but he was limited by rules in a way Shaq wasn't. He also put a lot more effort in defense than O'Neal.

As an observation, the more I watch 1960s Sixers footage, the more I see that his cooperation with Hal Greer was top notch. They were deadly running two-men action, either with Wilt playing in the post and hitting Hal in short midrange, them playing various kinds of hand-offs or Hal playing high P&Rs with Wilt (ot course high relative to era, they didn't start them 5 feet out of three point line).

i like Taylor but after a while you start noticing that his stylistic biases affect heavily his conclusions (imo)

he can tell you that magic led the best offenses ever then say next sentecne that he loses point for portability limiting the ceiling of his offense cause ball dominance

he kinda ignores or diminishes results/data that goes against his (very sound) theory

anf i say this as a big fan of his works that got seriously into analizing basketball from reading his stuff

[Goudelock]

...

I know you're from Spain, so I assume you'd be a good person to ask: Is "Marca" considered reputable sports news?

For like the third time since I joined this forum, I am learning Spanish. I've been trying to find newspapers/websites that cover sports since that might help me stay engaged to the process. Marca seems to come up a lot, but when I mentioned it to my buddies, they said Marca is just Real Madrid/government propaganda? Is this true? And are there other media outlets that cover football/sports that you'd recommend?

[Jaivl]

...

I know you're from Spain, so I assume you'd be a good person to ask: Is "Marca" considered reputable sports news?

LOL no, please don't.

Marca seems to come up a lot, but when I mentioned it to my buddies, they said Marca is just Real Madrid/government propaganda? Is this true? And are there other media outlets that cover football/sports that you'd recommend?

Yeah, pretty much. Marca, RMTV and El Chiringuito (MEGA) are RM propaganda, while Sport is FCB propaganda. AS and Mundo Deportivo are supposedly RM and FCB propaganda respectively, as they were tied to former presidents, but they are both so bad at it it may be counterproductive.

But it might do the trick for you, you're looking for spanish texts and not reputable journalism, after all, so I guess go for it anyway?

And re/ podcasts I'd probably try "La Pizarra de Quintana" (Radio MARCA but young blood, very good and analytical football coverage).

[falcolombardi]

...

I know you're from Spain, so I assume you'd be a good person to ask: Is "Marca" considered reputable sports news?

For like the third time since I joined this forum, I am learning Spanish. I've been trying to find newspapers/websites that cover sports since that might help me stay engaged to the process. Marca seems to come up a lot, but when I mentioned it to my buddies, they said Marca is just Real Madrid/government propaganda? Is this true? And are there other media outlets that cover football/sports that you'd recommend?

.you should try to listen to basketball podcast/youtube channels like "drafteados" or "2+1"

marca sucks but some of their old basketball editorial content is good, look up "he got game" from marca

also acb forums is kinda like a smaller spain real gm for basketball and has some cool Projects there, specially the "greatest players at each draft position" one

[Goudelock]

...

I know you're from Spain, so I assume you'd be a good person to ask: Is "Marca" considered reputable sports news?

LOL no, please don't.

Marca seems to come up a lot, but when I mentioned it to my buddies, they said Marca is just Real Madrid/government propaganda? Is this true? And are there other media outlets that cover football/sports that you'd recommend?

Yeah, pretty much. Marca, RMTV and El Chiringuito (MEGA) are RM propaganda, while Sport is FCB propaganda. AS and Mundo Deportivo are supposedly RM and FCB propaganda respectively, as they were tied to former presidents, but they are both so bad at it it may be counterproductive.

But it might do the trick for you, you're looking for spanish texts and not reputable journalism, after all, so I guess go for it anyway?

And re/ podcasts I'd probably try "La Pizarra de Quintana" (Radio MARCA but young blood, very good and analytical football coverage).

Thanks for your input! I'd like to read good football journalism, but it sounds like that's not really a thing in Spain lol. I bought "Guia de La Liga 2022" on Ebay because I like season previews and I figured it would be fun to pore over.

I'm trying to pick a team to root for that isn't Atletico, Real Madrid, or Barcelona. Not sure who to go with because they all seem irrelevant to some degree Rayo Vallecano has some really nice kits.

I'll check out that podcast. At this point, I just need to hear words and stuff. Although understanding Spain's version of the language is impossible because y'all talk like you're running out of time and breath.

[Goudelock]

.you should try to listen to basketball podcast/youtube channels like "drafteados" or "2+1"

marca sucks but some of their old basketball editorial content is good, look up "he got game" from marca

also acb forums is kinda like a smaller spain real gm for basketball and has some cool Projects there, specially the "greatest players at each draft position" one

Oh shoot I'll give ACB Forums and Drafteados a look! I'm not a huge podcast guy, but I'll start listening to some while I work or drive or whatever. If it's about NBA, that should be interesting.

[falcolombardi]

I know you're from Spain, so I assume you'd be a good person to ask: Is "Marca" considered reputable sports news?

LOL no, please don't.

Marca seems to come up a lot, but when I mentioned it to my buddies, they said Marca is just Real Madrid/government propaganda? Is this true? And are there other media outlets that cover football/sports that you'd recommend?

Yeah, pretty much. Marca, RMTV and El Chiringuito (MEGA) are RM propaganda, while Sport is FCB propaganda. AS and Mundo Deportivo are supposedly RM and FCB propaganda respectively, as they were tied to former presidents, but they are both so bad at it it may be counterproductive.

But it might do the trick for you, you're looking for spanish texts and not reputable journalism, after all, so I guess go for it anyway?

And re/ podcasts I'd probably try "La Pizarra de Quintana" (Radio MARCA but young blood, very good and analytical football coverage).

Thanks for your input! I'd like to read good football journalism, but it sounds like that's not really a thing in Spain lol. I bought "Guia de La Liga 2022" on Ebay because I like season previews and I figured it would be fun to pore over.

I'm trying to pick a team to root for that isn't Atletico, Real Madrid, or Barcelona. Not sure who to go with because they all seem irrelevant to some degree Rayo Vallecano has some really nice kits.

I'll check out that podcast. At this point, I just need to hear words and stuff. Although understanding Spain's version of the language is impossible because y'all talk like you're running out of time and breath.

that is the best description of spanish accent i have ever seen

[Jaivl]

Thanks for your input! I'd like to read good football journalism, but it sounds like that's not really a thing in Spain lol.

Indeed lol. Maybe some specialiced media like panenka.org , but it's kind of a vacuum out there.

I'm trying to pick a team to root for that isn't Atletico, Real Madrid, or Barcelona. Not sure who to go with because they all seem irrelevant to some degree Rayo Vallecano has some really nice kits.

Rayo is a good pick, nice kits, humble club with a left wing fanbase.

Let me make the case for Deportivo:
- Glorious recent past (Ligas, Copas, unbeaten at home 20 years vs Madrid, 4-0 vs Milan, perennial quarterfinalist on Champions League)
- Gorgeous kits
- Lots of charismatic icons (Arsenio, Diego Tristán, Djalminha) and world class superstars (Mauro Silva, Rivaldo, Bebeto)
- Best fanbase in Spain
- Can always boast against Real Madrid fans (Centenariazo)
- Stadium right next to the beach
- Plays in third division, so not a whole lot of expectations right now

I'll check out that podcast. At this point, I just need to hear words and stuff. Although understanding Spain's version of the language is impossible because y'all talk like you're running out of time and breath.

that is the best description of spanish accent i have ever seen

Sometimes I can't even understand andalusians myself.

[Goudelock]

Rayo is a good pick, nice kits, humble club with a left wing fanbase.

Let me make the case for Deportivo:
- Glorious recent past (Ligas, Copas, unbeaten at home 20 years vs Madrid, 4-0 vs Milan, perennial quarterfinalist on Champions League)
- Gorgeous kits
- Lots of charismatic icons (Arsenio, Diego Tristán, Djalminha) and world class superstars (Mauro Silva, Rivaldo, Bebeto)
- Best fanbase in Spain
- Can always boast against Real Madrid fans (Centenariazo)
- Stadium right next to the beach
- Plays in third division, so not a whole lot of expectations right now

Tifo Football can make any subject sound like a magical story, but the club does sound like a histoically great one.

Watch on YouTube

They have some sweet kits too.



And hey, if they ever get good again, then nobody will be able to say I'm a bandwagonner

And on the subject of the Spanish language as a whole, I really appreciate the consistency of the vowel sounds. Unlike english, I know that an "e" or "a" will always sound the same and how to pronounce words. Now the 1,000 different verb tenses are overwhelming, but it's just something I'll have to learn and deal with.

[HeartBreakKid]

LOL no, please don't.


Yeah, pretty much. Marca, RMTV and El Chiringuito (MEGA) are RM propaganda, while Sport is FCB propaganda. AS and Mundo Deportivo are supposedly RM and FCB propaganda respectively, as they were tied to former presidents, but they are both so bad at it it may be counterproductive.

But it might do the trick for you, you're looking for spanish texts and not reputable journalism, after all, so I guess go for it anyway?

And re/ podcasts I'd probably try "La Pizarra de Quintana" (Radio MARCA but young blood, very good and analytical football coverage).

Thanks for your input! I'd like to read good football journalism, but it sounds like that's not really a thing in Spain lol. I bought "Guia de La Liga 2022" on Ebay because I like season previews and I figured it would be fun to pore over.

I'm trying to pick a team to root for that isn't Atletico, Real Madrid, or Barcelona. Not sure who to go with because they all seem irrelevant to some degree Rayo Vallecano has some really nice kits.

I'll check out that podcast. At this point, I just need to hear words and stuff. Although understanding Spain's version of the language is impossible because y'all talk like you're running out of time and breath.

that is the best description of spanish accent i have ever seen

Very true lol. But my family speaks Caribbean spanish so can't really talk ish about hard to understand.

[falcolombardi]

i have a football fan buddy that says peyton manning was the best quarterback ever at his peak

is that a reasonable opinion? who would be the highest quarterback peak if not brady or manning?

[HeartBreakKid]

i have a football fan buddy that says peyton Nanking was tge best quarterback ever over brady

is that a reasonable opinion? who would be the highesy quarterback peaks if not brady or manning?

Peyton Nanking? Is that the alternate universe version where football is a Chinese sport? Your typos are getting next level lazy falcolombardi



Peyton over Brady was a common take when they both played. Since Peyton retired, Brady has won a few more rings that has made him the popular choice for GOAT.

When they actually played though Peyton's RS stats were significantly better. The narrative against Peyton is that he only won "one" ring for most of his prime, and his teams didn't do too hot in the playoffs (to be fair, they were usually not as good as say the Patriots, but if I can recall Peyton does play worse in the post season).

Brady isn't really overly dominant in the RS, he's a perennial MVP guy. Also a lot of his career came in a weak division so the Pats didn't need to do much to get great seeding.


I think Aaron Rodgers is a very reasonable choice for highest peak - he has comparable pre snap skill as Manning and Brady and is a much better athlete. You could also go with Dan Marino, who is kind of like the Peyton Manning of his time - or Joe Montana who is the Brady of his time.



I think if we are saying greatest PEAKS, Brady probably is not the GOAT.

[falcolombardi]

i have a football fan buddy that says peyton Nanking was tge best quarterback ever over brady

is that a reasonable opinion? who would be the highesy quarterback peaks if not brady or manning?

Peyton Nanking? Is that the alternate universe version where football is a Chinese sport? Your typos are getting next level lazy falcolombardi



Peyton over Brady was a common take when they both played. Since Peyton retired, Brady has won a few more rings that has made him the popular choice for GOAT.

When they actually played though Peyton's RS stats were significantly better. The narrative against Peyton is that he only won "one" ring for most of his prime, and his teams didn't do too hot in the playoffs (to be fair, they were usually not as good as say the Patriots, but if I can recall Peyton does play worse in the post season).

Brady isn't really overly dominant in the RS, he's a perennial MVP guy. Also a lot of his career came in a weak division so the Pats didn't need to do much to get great seeding.


I think Aaron Rodgers is a very reasonable choice for highest peak - he has comparable pre snap skill as Manning and Brady and is a much better athlete. You could also go with Dan Marino, who is kind of like the Peyton Manning of his time - or Joe Montana who is the Brady of his time.



I think if we are saying greatest PEAKS, Brady probably is not the GOAT.

peyton Nanking was an hilarious autocorrector typo i kinda wanted to leave lol

i have heard the argument that manning was better in regular season but "choked" in playoffs

but without much more knowledge i cannot know if peyton struggles are real or narrative (my experience in basketball is that you can not blindly rely in narratives of clutchness as they often merely reflect winning bias)

[Dr Positivity]

i have a football fan buddy that says peyton manning was the best quarterback ever at his peak

is that a reasonable opinion? who would be the highest quarterback peak if not brady or manning?

I think Manning has a very good argument for best regular season player ever but it just seemed like Brady came up bigger in the playoffs in routine basis while Manning has a lot of bad losses where they don't score that many points, especially before 06 his and the Colts track record in big playoff games was pretty miserable and he had to shake off choker reputation by winning one. I understand the argument that this could be a flawed measure since it depends on teammates, but it's not like Manning didn't benefit from teammates as on his Colts Superbowl team he had 3 TDs 7 INT in the playoffs, and was washed on the Broncos one. Brady now has longevity advantage on Manning as well. Manning is 2nd GOAT for me it's just Brady resume is ridiculous all around. Rodgers is probably the most talented ever but he is too alienating personality wise.