The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 4)

[MisterHibachi]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ByTimReynolds/status/750414665776242688[/tweet]

This is starting to get a little serious.

[rich316]

West was solid last year, but he's getting really old now. Is he 36?

Don't know the whole story, but it's kind of lame to leave a 67 win team for the one team that's better. Lol

At this point in his career he can probably still do two things: set hard screens and hit 18 footers. Those skills make him marginally valuable to the Warriors, but his defense will make him a garbage time player for them. They will need guys to soak up plenty of garbage time, and he can do that.

[rich316]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ByTimReynolds/status/750414665776242688[/tweet]

This is starting to get a little serious.

Kamla's tweet reads more like a prognostication than actual reporting.

[Gibson22]

we freaking got to do something right now.
they got durant and i mean kevin durant
their "problem" was lack of height and basically a center who is not a joke and they got zaza
They seemed to have some bench depth problems and now they got david west (he is good). they're likely to get ray allen too.
We just objectively speaking need to do some moves, some trades, some stuff.
It's not about waiting for june to come hoping something it's gonna happen (injuries, they don't work together for some reason etc) or thinking we still got lebron and he can come up and put up 45-20-15 back to back to force a game 7 and win or something like that.
that's all about keeping it up with your rival, i'm not saying being at their level cause it's impossible (we'd need to get kawhi and cousins) but keeping it up with them. and i don't know what we gotta do but get wade, get cousins and mclemore for love and shump get gallinari for shumpert and i don't know who get gallinari but just we MUST do something, being it getting some very good player (wade, gallo, this caliber) for rotations guys (i don't how it is possible btw) or trading love and someone like shump (even jr) for greater players (cousins, westbrook). i don't know. just do something

[yoyoboy]

Is it just me whose convinced that the addition of Wade wouldn't make much of a difference? I don't like the fit at all, with Wade's lack of shooting and below-average defense (at this point of his career). His RAPM metrics were abysmal last season - not surprising considering the Heat were significantly better with him off the floor in both the RS and PS - and he'll be 35 by the time the playoffs start next year. Is him taking away minutes from Kyrie, JR, or even Shump a good thing? Maybe if he came off the bench and played a Manu role, but the chances of that are slim to none, and you also have to factor in that we'd have to give up Shump and/or JR to sign Wade.

Said this before, but I think all signing Wade would do is provide ammo for the anti-LeBron crowd.

[JulesWinnfield]

Is it just me whose convinced that the addition of Wade wouldn't make much of a difference? I don't like the fit at all, with Wade's lack of shooting and below-average defense (at this point of his career). His RAPM metrics were abysmal last season - not surprising considering the Heat were significantly better with him off the floor in both the RS and PS - and he'll be 35 by the time the playoffs start next year. Is him taking away minutes from Kyrie, JR, or even Shump a good thing? Maybe if he came off the bench and played a Manu role, but the chances of that are slim to none, and you also have to factor in that we'd have to give up Shump and/or JR to sign Wade.

Said this before, but I think all signing Wade would do is provide ammo for the anti-LeBron crowd.

Exactly. Isn't going to move the needle much at all, could potentially make them worse, but adding his big name gives an inflated impression of the supporting cast and leads to a bunch of "super team" nonsense. All downside to me. Not to mention you are stuck with whatever deal he gets and he's only getting worse (when he's even available to play). I want no part of this. Wouldn't touch him

[BasketballFan7]

Wade would make the team clearly better, no questions asked. He would immediately be the second playmaker on the team, he plays high IQ ball, and is a two-way player. If it were to be a JR-Wade swap it would be arguable, but adding Wade and keeping JR would be an easy decision to make.

[PearGreatness]

I actually think Wade could make them significantly better, if he's willing to come off the bench.

[JulesWinnfield]

Wade would make the team clearly better, no questions asked. He would immediately be the second playmaker on the team, he plays high IQ ball, and is a two-way player. If it were to be a JR-Wade swap it would be arguable, but adding Wade and keeping JR would be an easy decision to make.

Wade hasn't been a two way player in a while. He hasn't even been in the top 60 in defensive rpm among shooting guards (again, just among shooting guards) in either of the last two years. He's a major downgrade on that end from shump by a factor of like 10. And that's without even taking into account his efficiency on the offensive end is steadily declining to deplorable levels. He had a nice postseason this year, but I'm going to chalk that more up to sample size and him being able to occasionally bottle something in spurts, more than I am going to assign intangibles like "champion, warrior, big game player!" Especially when this is a guy who declined in postseason every year with Lebron outside of 2011 because he was playing hurt, which brings me to the next concern..... how can we trust his health when he's always dinged and spent 4 consecutive years either being hurt in the postseason or being shut down at the end of the season prior to last year (which was the aberration).

And how are they going to add Wade, keep JR, and keep the rest of the core intact unless Wade is taking some monster pay cut just to spite Miami? It's just not realistic. You get this guy, you shoot your load on a declining name that you're stuck with. If you can get him for the 2/7 offer they can do with their cap situation, that's one thing. But it's not happening that way

[BasketballFan7]

Wade would make the team clearly better, no questions asked. He would immediately be the second playmaker on the team, he plays high IQ ball, and is a two-way player. If it were to be a JR-Wade swap it would be arguable, but adding Wade and keeping JR would be an easy decision to make.

Wade hasn't been a two way player in a while. He hasn't even been in the top 60 in defensive rpm among shooting guards (again, just among shooting guards) in either of the last two years. He's a major downgrade on that end from shump by a factor of like 10. And that's without even taking into account his efficiency on the offensive end is steadily declining to deplorable levels. He had a nice postseason this year, but I'm going to chalk that more up to sample size and him being able to occasionally bottle something in spurts, more than I am going to assign intangibles like "champion, warrior, big game player!" Or state that he was just coasting during the season for money time. Especially when this is a guy who declined in postseason every year with Lebron outside of 2011 because he was playing hurt, which brings me to the next concern..... how can we trust his health when he's always dinged and spent 4 consecutive years either being hurt in the postseason or being shut down at the end of the season prior to last year (which was the aberration).

And how are they going to add Wade, keep JR, and keep the rest of the core intact unless Wade is taking some monster pay cut just to spite Miami? It's just not realistic. You get this guy, you shoot your load on a declining name that you're stuck with. If you can get him for the 2/7 offer they can do with their cap situation, that's one thing. But it's not happening.

1. He looked fine defensively in the postseason. I didn't watch the heat often during the RS. Knowing Wade, he may have coasted often. Additionally, Ill mention usage separately but that may have limited his defensive ability.

2. If you don't want to believe in intangibles, feel free. This is a human sport, to me it is clear they matter. Intangibles always matter in a competitive environment.

3. His efficiency has declined because he is 34 and still 7th in the NBA in usage - and was 3rd in 2015.

4. Injury history is scary, sure, but you have to take risks and he is (by far) the best option available.

[JulesWinnfield]

Wade would make the team clearly better, no questions asked. He would immediately be the second playmaker on the team, he plays high IQ ball, and is a two-way player. If it were to be a JR-Wade swap it would be arguable, but adding Wade and keeping JR would be an easy decision to make.

Wade hasn't been a two way player in a while. He hasn't even been in the top 60 in defensive rpm among shooting guards (again, just among shooting guards) in either of the last two years. He's a major downgrade on that end from shump by a factor of like 10. And that's without even taking into account his efficiency on the offensive end is steadily declining to deplorable levels. He had a nice postseason this year, but I'm going to chalk that more up to sample size and him being able to occasionally bottle something in spurts, more than I am going to assign intangibles like "champion, warrior, big game player!" Or state that he was just coasting during the season for money time. Especially when this is a guy who declined in postseason every year with Lebron outside of 2011 because he was playing hurt, which brings me to the next concern..... how can we trust his health when he's always dinged and spent 4 consecutive years either being hurt in the postseason or being shut down at the end of the season prior to last year (which was the aberration).

And how are they going to add Wade, keep JR, and keep the rest of the core intact unless Wade is taking some monster pay cut just to spite Miami? It's just not realistic. You get this guy, you shoot your load on a declining name that you're stuck with. If you can get him for the 2/7 offer they can do with their cap situation, that's one thing. But it's not happening.

1. He looked fine defensively in the postseason. I didn't watch the heat often during the RS. Knowing Wade, he may have coasted often. Additionally, Ill mention usage separately but that may have limited his defensive ability.

2. If you don't want to believe in intangibles, feel free. This is a human sport, to me it is clear they matter. Intangibles always matter in a competitive environment.

3. His efficiency has declined because he is 34 and still 7th in the NBA in usage - and was 3rd in 2015.

4. Injury history is scary, sure, but you have to take risks and he is (by far) the best option available.

Number 1 and 3 are tied together on several levels....He's going to be 35 next year (an old 35 with his injury history). Not many 35 year old lockdown perimeter defenders, he's only going to get worse. And the efficiency is down because at this age he can't get to the rim anymore. Back to back years now fewer than 30% of his shots came in the restricted area (22% in 2015). This was always a number that was in the high 30s.

I'm not dismissing intangibles, but I care more about tangibles... Intangibles are too often thrown in there to excuse away undesirable tangibles, like the fact that this is tangibly a declining player who is a pretty good bet to be hurt on top of that. I hope this is just smoke to get him paid in Miami

[BasketballFan7]

Wade hasn't been a two way player in a while. He hasn't even been in the top 60 in defensive rpm among shooting guards (again, just among shooting guards) in either of the last two years. He's a major downgrade on that end from shump by a factor of like 10. And that's without even taking into account his efficiency on the offensive end is steadily declining to deplorable levels. He had a nice postseason this year, but I'm going to chalk that more up to sample size and him being able to occasionally bottle something in spurts, more than I am going to assign intangibles like "champion, warrior, big game player!" Or state that he was just coasting during the season for money time. Especially when this is a guy who declined in postseason every year with Lebron outside of 2011 because he was playing hurt, which brings me to the next concern..... how can we trust his health when he's always dinged and spent 4 consecutive years either being hurt in the postseason or being shut down at the end of the season prior to last year (which was the aberration).

And how are they going to add Wade, keep JR, and keep the rest of the core intact unless Wade is taking some monster pay cut just to spite Miami? It's just not realistic. You get this guy, you shoot your load on a declining name that you're stuck with. If you can get him for the 2/7 offer they can do with their cap situation, that's one thing. But it's not happening.

1. He looked fine defensively in the postseason. I didn't watch the heat often during the RS. Knowing Wade, he may have coasted often. Additionally, Ill mention usage separately but that may have limited his defensive ability.

2. If you don't want to believe in intangibles, feel free. This is a human sport, to me it is clear they matter. Intangibles always matter in a competitive environment.

3. His efficiency has declined because he is 34 and still 7th in the NBA in usage - and was 3rd in 2015.

4. Injury history is scary, sure, but you have to take risks and he is (by far) the best option available.

Number 1 and 3 are tied together on several levels....He's going to be 35 next year (an old 35 with his injury history). Not many 35 year old lockdown perimeter defenders, he's only going to get worse. And the efficiency is down because at this age he can't get to the rim anymore. Back to back years now fewer than 30% of his shots came in the restricted area (22% in 2015). This was always a number that was in the high 30s.

I'm not dismissing intangibles, but I care more about tangibles... Intangibles are too often thrown in there to excuse away undesirable tangibles, like the fact that this is tangibly a declining player who is a pretty good bet to be hurt on top of that. I hope this is just smoke to get him paid in Miami

If he signs with Cleveland, I would bet he is at the league average ts% or higher.

We shall see.

[rich316]

You have to wonder where JR's contract negotiations are in all of this. Last summer he just hung out for a long time and never got any serious suitors, and this year no news on his front after 5 days into the biggest sellers market ever. Do teams still think he's a loose cannon ready to go off if he leaves Lebron? To me, what happens with JR is the most important thing about the Cavs summer. It's frustrating that there's no intel at all about what teams are thinking about him. You would think that if he were in demand he would have had something on the table by this point.

[OnlyOneWay2Play]

My 2 cents on Wade's fit:

While I understand that his lack of shooting could hurt spacing, think of a lineup of:

Kyrie
JR (or some better 3+D wing, result of Love trade)
Wade
LeBron
TT

Where does Curry hide on D against that? If they try on Wade, he will post him up all day. Everyone else we already saw he has problems against in this year's Finals. And this group could defend and switch very well.

The reality is, the Warriors are on paper almost unbeatable due to Durant's cowardly choice. Wade is still a great big-game player and if you can get him without giving up much, you do it. The only - and much bigger - improvement could come from trading Love for guys like Crowder, Avery Bradley, etc. Love REALLY has no place to hide now against GSW; he could at least sort of hide on Barnes before, now it's a joke against KD.

[MisterHibachi]

Cavs really have no ways to improve this free agency. All ring chasers are headed to California, and unless they trade Love they're SOL. Adding Wade would be a huge improvement, as long as they don't gut the team to do so obviously.

[JulesWinnfield]

Other than Wade agreeing to 2/7, or Lebron taking a monster pay cut to accommodate Wade (and hey, it's not my money, but if your Nike deal is really worth a billion and you've already made several hundred million, screw what the players association has to say, do you) how exactly is Wade going to be coming at little cost to the active roster? I mean that as a serious question. Maybe there is just something I'm not getting here

All this sign with Denver and get traded after December 15th stuff just seems outrageous and possibly something veto worthy. Not to mention suddenly Denver has a ton of leverage. And if you do acquire him and you're living in a world where d Wade is on your books for 20+mil, that strangles your already thin flexibility

[MisterHibachi]

David Aldridge tweeted LeBron is taking a pay cut under no circumstances.

[toodles23]

Other than Wade agreeing to 2/7, or Lebron taking a monster pay cut to accommodate Wade (and hey, it's not my money, but if your Nike deal is really worth a billion and you've already made several hundred million, screw what the players association has to say, do you) how exactly is Wade going to be coming at little cost to the active roster? I mean that as a serious question. Maybe there is just something I'm not getting here

All this sign with Denver and get traded after December 15th stuff just seems outrageous and possibly something veto worthy. Not to mention suddenly Denver has a ton of leverage. And if you do acquire him and your living in a world where d Wade is on your books for 20+mil, that strangles your already thin flexibility

I haven't seen anybody outline a scenario where the Cavs get to keep all of their rotation players and add Wade without Bron, Wade, and JR taking massive paycuts. And there's this tweet:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/daldridgetnt/status/750509938028359680[/tweet]

Assuming it's right (and I think it is, Aldridge is one of the most respected reporters out there) I think it pretty much kills the chances of Wade to Cleveland, unless they're dumb enough to trade away a few rotation players.

[JulesWinnfield]

Other than Wade agreeing to 2/7, or Lebron taking a monster pay cut to accommodate Wade (and hey, it's not my money, but if your Nike deal is really worth a billion and you've already made several hundred million, screw what the players association has to say, do you) how exactly is Wade going to be coming at little cost to the active roster? I mean that as a serious question. Maybe there is just something I'm not getting here

All this sign with Denver and get traded after December 15th stuff just seems outrageous and possibly something veto worthy. Not to mention suddenly Denver has a ton of leverage. And if you do acquire him and your living in a world where d Wade is on your books for 20+mil, that strangles your already thin flexibility

I haven't seen anybody outline a scenario where the Cavs get to keep all of their rotation players and add Wade without Bron, Wade, and JR taking massive paycuts. And there's this tweet:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/daldridgetnt/status/750509938028359680[/tweet]

Assuming it's right (and I think it is, Aldridge is one of the most respected reporters out there) I think it pretty much kills the chances of Wade to Cleveland, unless they're dumb enough to trade away a few rotation players.

I wish Miami just does the right thing by Wade already and kills this. An extra 5 mil per isn't going to impact their title chances during the Wade window anyway (they are already at zero), and there is some worth to having Wade wear only your uniform in his career. He's going to likely be a figure in the organization well past his playing career anyway, and the odds that they don't one day wind up regretting on some level the visual of him wearing different threads because they saved a few mil are minuscule.

[rich316]

Fortunately I think the Cavs and Lebron are smart enough to know that giving up real assets isn't worth it.