The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3)

[afox]

So James probably gets more credit than he deserves for the wins, and likewise for the losses....Disappointing to all of us is the truth is probably somewhere in the middle...The reason I have a problem ranking him anywhere near top 5 all time is...his misses at point blank, aren't just misses...theyre so bad...the same could be said of his turnovers...he just looks so out of it at times...I mean horrible...the worst I've ever seen a superstar...He tied the second most turnovers thru 2 games in the Finals with 11...First is 12, and it's him too...just so many things to be said about him, that are just not flattering....and to just say he's top 3-5, because of his numbers...that his teams record in the Finals doesn't matter? C'mon now..Only Wilt and James have losing records among top 10 players in the Finals...Wilt's numbers were so incredible and the fact that his two title teams set the reg season mark for wins/best record carries a lot of weight...James numbers are great but...the 4 MVPS are big...but he has come up short in the Finals repeatedly...fact...he barely got the second one...and the fact that he's bigger and stronger than most everyone in the league...and goes to the team that gives him the best chance...all things considered...he doesn't win in the Finals enough...

[MisterHibachi]

Baiting

[Dupp]

Can you name any players who would play next to Love/Kyrie and have better results than what this Cavaliers team has had the past 2 seasons? Is there a player that, if replacing LeBron, would have this Cav's team playing at a higher level than they have been over the past 2 seasons? I think the list is a very, very short list or non-existent personally.

What do you mean by better results? Do you mean being the Eastern conference representative in the finals with Lebron being out West? I can think of several players.

If you build a team around Kyrie/Love that is different team altogether. For example put Kevin Durant on this Cavs team:

PG Kyrie
SG JR
SF Durant
PF Love
C Mozgov (or it could have been someone else since this was a reaction trade from last year)

That team wins at least 57 games in the East and would be the favorites. Also, if Durant can play with WB, I am sure he can play with Kyrie. Then with Durant's more reliable shooting ability, that gives Love or Mozgov space to post up.

It is not impossible to make a good team without Lebron, this is exactly what I mean by Lebron getting all the credit for his team's success and then Lebron fans putting all the blame on the others. Shoot, I think if you put Paul George, Kawhi on that team they could win 55+ games and that is knocking on the door for the #1 seed. What if this team put KAT at center, I think it would be a contender in the East. What about Cousins teaming up with Love and Kyrie, this is not a team bereft of talent......

Uh...who exactly on your team is the primary playmaker? Surely it's not tunnel vision Kyrie or I can't dribble anymore KD.

Not mention the huge defensive drop off...

[rich316]

Sorry folks, but I'm not buying any Cavs stock. We've seen this movie before, and unlike OKC the Cavs didn't win game 1. Even if they've figured out a way to passibly defend the Warriors, thats not enough. Curry and Klay have proven that it doesn't matter how bad they look game to game, they are always capable of going bananas. I write Game 3 up to the Warriors thinking they just had to show up to win and not really being serious. That won't happen again, unfortunately. I'm beginning to think that Kerr is even more important than people give credit for - it's a good thing he was the CoY. His consistency and leadership is so important to getting his team on track, since their stars are really kinda mentally lazy. He gives them the backbone they need.

[Sedale Threatt]

My contention are for those who say that Lebron is a better team player/playmaker and makes his teammates better. There is a contingent of folks who think "just add Lebron to a team" like Kool-Aid mix and the team will automatically become better.

I mean, isn't that pretty much what happens? Maybe not JUST, but essentially? The guy's not perfect, but his track record is pretty damn impressive. Basically, if you've had him over the past decade or so, at worst you're making the conference Finals. Certainly he's had some fabulous teammates to aid the process, especially in Miami, but the one constant is him. I'd kill to be able to build around him, and pretty much every GM in the league would too.

What I don't agree with is putting the blame on why the Cavs lose on Lebron's teammates. They are talented, they have shown it. If the Cavs lose or win its as a team, not putting the blame on one or the other. It use to irritate me when the Lakers lost and Kobe got all the blame. That is part of being the star of the team but in reality your star can only do so much. It is a team effort and if you want to win at the highest level you have to blend your talents in with your teammates. That is GOAT worthy, not individual production......

Also, this line of thinking drives me nuts. It used to irritate you, quite correctly, when the Lakers lost and Kobe got all the blame. (I'm assuming this is pre Gasol, when he was killing it and carrying slugs like Smush Parker and Luke Walton and Chris Mihm to the playoffs.) I agree. This falls under the category of not blaming the guy who is doing his job.

Yet...you're more than willing to do that with LeBron.

How does this make any sense whatsoever?

I dunno...seems to me, as a Lakers fan who has no real reason to stick up for him other than my deep appreciation for him as a player, that you have an axe to grind with LeBron. That's your prerogative. He's obviously had some massive face plants in the playoffs, for which he absolutely deserves to be criticized for.

In this particular instance, however, I don't see how getting dusted by a historically great team in two road games in which, while he obviously wasn't great, he played way better than his teammates, can be used as some referendum on how, despite soooooo much evidence to the contrary, he's somehow not a team player or an all-time elite building block.

[OnlyOneWay2Play]

Great article breaking down the (positive) domino effects of LeBron playing the 4 and guarding Draymond. This is really the key impact of RJ playing over Love; it allows much more flexibility and less weakness defensively (not 2 liabilities on D).

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/6/9/11893824/lebron-james-draymond-green-nba-finals-2016-warriors-cavaliers-game-3

This is what Mike Prada meant by "LeBron needs to take the challenge of guarding Draymond, like Durant did". He didn't mean that LeBron was being lazy on D, but rather by taking the primary role on D - since the Curry-Green pick and roll is the Warriors key to everything - he makes everything else so much easier for the Cavs on D.

Given this, the Cavs MUST start RJ over Love and limit Love's minutes drastically (only play him when Curry is off the court, preferably Green also).

[kayess]

G35, your schtik is old and tired at this point, and your admission that it used to annoy you when it happened with Kobe is the single most damning piece of evidence to suggest you're trolling - you're pissed when it happened to Kobe, but you're doing it with LeBron right now?

You're severely lowering the level of discussion here. LeBron doesn't make his teammates better? When they play well, it's not because of LeBron, but when they don't, it's because LeBron doesn't make them better?

With all due respect, that's **** insane. A player's performance is contingent on a number of factors - coaching, system, their teammates, their opponents... To completely rule out their own play and the play of their best teammate in either factor, but not the other, is either the height of ignorance, or willfully, maliciously derailing the topic on-hand.

[parapooper]

There's a very big difference between "can't support a winning team as the primary offensive player" and "is not talented."

Sure he is talented, but what good is talent if you don't have the BBIQ to use it in a manner that helps your team? It makes all your talent useless or worse. For a PG having a great handle/good shot but no BBIQ is like being a center with GOAT center skills and a standing reach of 5'2" - yeah you have a lot of the right talents, but you lack the one thing that makes those talents an overall useful package. Or say you have someone who is super attractive, super charismatic and the best actor on the planet but can't seem to learn English - very talented, but will never be a movie star.
If Kyrie was less talented and didn't have those flashy handles the Cavs would play Delly more, give Kyrie less usage and be a much better team for it.

And "can't support a winning team as the primary offensive player" is putting it mildly as well, one could also say "made a 30 win team even worse when he was on the floor and played the exact same way on a 55+ win team with superior players"

He is also the rare player who has barely gotten better at all since his rookie season - if I were the Cavs I'd trade him as long as I still get some value back.

[kayess]

There's a very big difference between "can't support a winning team as the primary offensive player" and "is not talented."

Sure he is talented, but what good is talent if you don't have the BBIQ to use it in a manner that helps your team? It makes all your talent useless or worse. For a PG having a great handle/good shot but no BBIQ is like being a center with GOAT center skills and a standing reach of 5'2" - yeah you have a lot of the right talents, but you lack the one thing that makes those talents an overall useful package. Or say you have someone who is super attractive, super charismatic and the best actor on the planet but can't seem to learn English - very talented, but will never be a movie star.
If Kyrie was less talented and didn't have those flashy handles the Cavs would play Delly more, give Kyrie less usage and be a much better team for it.

And "can't support a winning team as the primary offensive player" is putting it mildly as well, one could also say "made a 30 win team even worse when he was on the floor and played the exact same way on a 55+ win team with superior players"

He is also the rare player who has barely gotten better at all since his rookie season - if I were the Cavs I'd trade him as long as I still get some value back.

I don't think tsherkin meant it as a defense of Kyrie - he's just differentiating between the two. He can think Kyrie's talented, but still be ineffective - it's just that being ineffective due to lack of talent, and being unable to support the winning team as the primary offensive player is worlds apart.

[IG2]

G35, your schtik is old and tired at this point, and your admission that it used to annoy you when it happened with Kobe is the single most damning piece of evidence to suggest you're trolling - you're pissed when it happened to Kobe, but you're doing it with LeBron right now?

You're severely lowering the level of discussion here. LeBron doesn't make his teammates better? When they play well, it's not because of LeBron, but when they don't, it's because LeBron doesn't make them better?

With all due respect, that's **** insane. A player's performance is contingent on a number of factors - coaching, system, their teammates, their opponents... To completely rule out their own play and the play of their best teammate in either factor, but not the other, is either the height of ignorance, or willfully, maliciously derailing the topic on-hand.

Anybody who has remotely dealt with Kobe fans should know that they are incapable of being rational when it comes to LeBron. When it comes to sports-hate, I have never seen anything matching the level of bitterness Kobe fans hold towards LeBron. This site is heavily moderated so you don't see it much here, but on most other NBA forums, you will see little beyond Kobe fans incessantly trolling about LeBron. To this day.

They will simply never get over LeBron being Kobe's biggest rival during Kobe's prime to eventually surpassing him in most people's eyes when he started winning rings in Miami.

[JLei]

Posted on the General Board.

He good.

[JulesWinnfield]

People are always going to be around to troll or push agendas based on their own biases (and all of us are biased to some degree, objectivity is something to strive for but in reality is impossible to achieve), but I have to say that generally speaking the PC board holds by far the highest level of discussion I have ever encountered on any message board I have ever seen in my entire life, and it's not even close. It's really unbelievable, and I never even knew a place like this could possibly exist. I don't even know how it's done, other than to theorize it's the moderation as mentioned above.

I didn't find this place until about 3 years ago and since then this is the only site I frequent to discuss basketball or sports in general. So many great posters here, so much to learn and make you challenge your own preconceived notions

[Larry David]

leading the finals in points, assists, rebounds and steals proving in the postseason for the third straight year he's the best player in the world. throw the man a bone and give him an all-D team at least

[JulesWinnfield]

Posted on the General Board.

He good.

Last season Lebron led all players on both teams in ppg, rpg and apg in both the Hawks and Warrior series, and he was on course to do the same in the Bulls series as well until Tristan Thompson passed him in rebounding by grabbing 17 boards in the game 6 clincher. He also almost did it in the Celtic series but Isiah Thomas edged him in assists 7.0 to 6.5. It's really unreal. This can't have been done too many times in the history of the league in any series (leading in ppg, rpg and apg) and he nearly did it in every series last postseason

[Arman_tanzarian]

People are always going to be around to troll or push agendas based on their own biases (and all of us are biased to some degree, objectivity is something to strive for but in reality is impossible to achieve), but I have to say that generally speaking the PC board holds by far the highest level of discussion I have ever encountered on any message board I have ever seen in my entire life, and it's not even close. It's really unbelievable, and I never even knew a place like this could possibly exist. I don't even know how it's done, other than to theorize it's the moderation as mentioned above.

I didn't find this place until about 3 years ago and since then this is the only site I frequent to discuss basketball or sports in general. So many great posters here, so much to learn and make you challenge your own preconceived notions

No matter where I go, I can't find another avenue that has this level of unbiased discussion.

[JulesWinnfield]

Love is coming off the bench tonight. At least that's what Lebatard is saying on ESPN radio right now as if it's fact. I guess lue just said it to the media or something, because Lebatard is passing this off as breaking just now

Edit: now after letting that hang through a commercial break he says he got it from Ohio.com reporting Love is "likely" to come off the bench. So not exactly official

[kayess]

G35, your schtik is old and tired at this point, and your admission that it used to annoy you when it happened with Kobe is the single most damning piece of evidence to suggest you're trolling - you're pissed when it happened to Kobe, but you're doing it with LeBron right now?

You're severely lowering the level of discussion here. LeBron doesn't make his teammates better? When they play well, it's not because of LeBron, but when they don't, it's because LeBron doesn't make them better?

With all due respect, that's **** insane. A player's performance is contingent on a number of factors - coaching, system, their teammates, their opponents... To completely rule out their own play and the play of their best teammate in either factor, but not the other, is either the height of ignorance, or willfully, maliciously derailing the topic on-hand.

Anybody who has remotely dealt with Kobe fans should know that they are incapable of being rational when it comes to LeBron. When it comes to sports-hate, I have never seen anything matching the level of bitterness Kobe fans hold towards LeBron. This site is heavily moderated so you don't see it much here, but on most other NBA forums, you will see little beyond Kobe fans incessantly trolling about LeBron. To this day.

They will simply never get over LeBron being Kobe's biggest rival during Kobe's prime to eventually surpassing him in most people's eyes when he started winning rings in Miami.

What you're saying is true of kobe stans, but not all Kobe fans.

The most amazing thing about this is that stans have probably found their new hero - Westbrook - and predictably, they don't like the idea that Curry could POSSIBLY have outplayed Westbrook despite inferior counting stats (not saying he did or didn't during the conference finals - just that the narrative seems so similar sometimes)

[JLei]

G35, your schtik is old and tired at this point, and your admission that it used to annoy you when it happened with Kobe is the single most damning piece of evidence to suggest you're trolling - you're pissed when it happened to Kobe, but you're doing it with LeBron right now?

You're severely lowering the level of discussion here. LeBron doesn't make his teammates better? When they play well, it's not because of LeBron, but when they don't, it's because LeBron doesn't make them better?

With all due respect, that's **** insane. A player's performance is contingent on a number of factors - coaching, system, their teammates, their opponents... To completely rule out their own play and the play of their best teammate in either factor, but not the other, is either the height of ignorance, or willfully, maliciously derailing the topic on-hand.

Anybody who has remotely dealt with Kobe fans should know that they are incapable of being rational when it comes to LeBron. When it comes to sports-hate, I have never seen anything matching the level of bitterness Kobe fans hold towards LeBron. This site is heavily moderated so you don't see it much here, but on most other NBA forums, you will see little beyond Kobe fans incessantly trolling about LeBron. To this day.

They will simply never get over LeBron being Kobe's biggest rival during Kobe's prime to eventually surpassing him in most people's eyes when he started winning rings in Miami.

What you're saying is true of kobe stans, but not all Kobe fans.

The most amazing thing about this is that stans have probably found their new hero - Westbrook - and predictably, they don't like the idea that Curry could POSSIBLY have outplayed Westbrook despite inferior counting stats (not saying he did or didn't during the conference finals - just that the narrative seems so similar sometimes)

Wait a second there are reasonable Kobe fans? You lie.

[Arman_tanzarian]

G35, your schtik is old and tired at this point, and your admission that it used to annoy you when it happened with Kobe is the single most damning piece of evidence to suggest you're trolling - you're pissed when it happened to Kobe, but you're doing it with LeBron right now?

You're severely lowering the level of discussion here. LeBron doesn't make his teammates better? When they play well, it's not because of LeBron, but when they don't, it's because LeBron doesn't make them better?

With all due respect, that's **** insane. A player's performance is contingent on a number of factors - coaching, system, their teammates, their opponents... To completely rule out their own play and the play of their best teammate in either factor, but not the other, is either the height of ignorance, or willfully, maliciously derailing the topic on-hand.

Anybody who has remotely dealt with Kobe fans should know that they are incapable of being rational when it comes to LeBron. When it comes to sports-hate, I have never seen anything matching the level of bitterness Kobe fans hold towards LeBron. This site is heavily moderated so you don't see it much here, but on most other NBA forums, you will see little beyond Kobe fans incessantly trolling about LeBron. To this day.

They will simply never get over LeBron being Kobe's biggest rival during Kobe's prime to eventually surpassing him in most people's eyes when he started winning rings in Miami.

I wouldn't even say fans but Kobe Stans, spend more time talking about LeBron than Kobe. All so-called "stans" are bad, Lebron stans included but at least they talk about LeBron.

[Arman_tanzarian]

My contention are for those who say that Lebron is a better team player/playmaker and makes his teammates better. There is a contingent of folks who think "just add Lebron to a team" like Kool-Aid mix and the team will automatically become better. I disagree, I think Lebron has a problem fitting his talents alongside other elite talents e.g. Bosh/Wade/Kyrie/Love. Lebron is great when the offense is built entirely around him and he gets to run everything ie the Cavs from 2005-2010.

Can you name any players who would play next to Love/Kyrie and have better results than what this Cavaliers team has had the past 2 seasons? Is there a player that, if replacing LeBron, would have this Cav's team playing at a higher level than they have been over the past 2 seasons? I think the list is a very, very short list or non-existent personally.

What do you mean by better results? Do you mean being the Eastern conference representative in the finals with Lebron being out West? I can think of several players.

If you build a team around Kyrie/Love that is different team altogether. For example put Kevin Durant on this Cavs team:

PG Kyrie
SG JR
SF Durant
PF Love
C Mozgov (or it could have been someone else since this was a reaction trade from last year)

That team wins at least 57 games in the East and would be the favorites. Also, if Durant can play with WB, I am sure he can play with Kyrie. Then with Durant's more reliable shooting ability, that gives Love or Mozgov space to post up.

It is not impossible to make a good team without Lebron, this is exactly what I mean by Lebron getting all the credit for his team's success and then Lebron fans putting all the blame on the others. Shoot, I think if you put Paul George, Kawhi on that team they could win 55+ games and that is knocking on the door for the #1 seed. What if this team put KAT at center, I think it would be a contender in the East. What about Cousins teaming up with Love and Kyrie, this is not a team bereft of talent......

Who is the primary playmaker? Who is the defensive anchor? Love? Moz? Come on man. In what planet does posting up love equal to winning?

- Love is tied for the most Post-up possesions in the playoffs and is scoring only 0.80 PPP on those attempts
- In 33 less possessions, Lebron is scoring 10 more PP100. Shooting 17.7% higher and is the lead facilitator out of the post.

He killed my raps out of his post play passing. If KD was in place of Lebron what do you get? A better shooter but one less guy to guard DD because JR was getting eaten alive, Love would still get abused by BB and JV and Kyrie still get's abused by Lowry.

If you want to win playoffs games, you don't a poor post players wasting possessions with basic basketball play. There's only a handful of players I'd play out of the post in today's game and they are LeBron, Aldridge and that's about it, Maybe KD is his decision making starts to improve.